Now I am trying to verify Marcos's lists in his first post. I ran into trouble with list 8, of the Carte Parlanti of Aretino. Marcos's source is Berti 2007. Berti is not the first to have presented this list: it is also included as one of Andy Pollet's "archaic orders." I am trying to verify this list and especially the order it presents, independently of Berti, whose book I don't have access to .

Vitali presents some selections from Le Carte Parlanti at http://www.associazioneletarot.it/page.aspx?id=163. These selections contain all the trump titles on Marcos's list except "Trombe." Instead, there is the word "Angelo" (as in Aretino's Pasquinate). Also mentioned are the twelve signs of the zodiac, which Aretino quoting Aretino are "che nei Germini (i tarocchi fiorentini, n.d.r) e nei Tarocchi," "well painted in Germini and tarocchi." The trumps titles are in no particular order. Vitali does not give page numbers.

I see similar quotes in an article by Girolamo Zorli, "Tarocchi e Germini di Pietro Aretino - 1543" at http://www.tretre.it/menu/accademia-del ... o-aretino/. Zorli does give page references.

(In Google-English, the article is at http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... d%3Dimvnsb)

Zorli starts by quoting a letter, dated July 7, 1543, to Paduvano Cartaro. (Added 3/1/12: The complete letter and another are posted, with translation, at http://www.tarotpedia.com/wiki/Pietro_Aretino:_Letters. I thank Marco, the translator, for calling this link to my attention.) Zorli says that this Paduvano was a card manufacturer who had a shop in Florence. I don't know his source for this information. (Added 3/1/12: The information is in the letter, which speaks of "the six or eight hundred scudi that, with the help of all Florence, you gain each year from your work." Also, I see from Marco's translation that "Paduvano, Cartaro" just means "the Paduan, Cardmaker.")

The letter appears to imply that Aretino had two decks, each perhaps a little different:

M. Alessandro dipintore vostro fratello, e mio amicissimo, mi diede i primi tarocchi ... cosi insieme con le due paia di carte mi ha dati i secondi; onde a voler laudar la diligenza de la bella manifattura di si fatti lavori; non bastarebbero le lingue di mille primieranti. tal che io in fino a qui gloriatomi del non saper' giocare, mosso da lor vaghezza, mi dolgo di non esser' giocatore...

(Note added 3/1/12: Here, in place of my stab at a translation, I put tarotpedia's excellent work.)

Mr. Alessandro, your brother and my dear friend, gave me my first tarot, so, together with the two decks of cards, gave me the second. The tongues of a thousand players of primiera would not be enough to praise the beauty and diligence of the skilful craft of such works....So much so that I, who until now have been proud of not being able to play, moved by their vagueness, am sorry not to be a player."

Then in addition, :

...ho lasciato torre le carte uniche, & i tarocchi divini ad alcune nimphe non meno cortesi, che galanti e cosi elleno in mio scambio si dilettaranno con esse.

And in tarotpedia's translation:

..I allowed a few nymphs, no less courteous than gallant, to take away those unique cards and divine tarot. So they will play with them in my place...

The letter also says, of these cards, that "they were made by the Paduan," which I assume is the same "Paduan" to whom Aretino is addressing the letter.

Then Zorli notes that 16th cetury editions of Le Carte Parlanti, after the first one of 1543, were more or less expurgated. So he will quote from the 1543 edition as edited in 1998 by Giuseppe Casalegno and Gabriella Giaccone, publisher Sellerio, Palermo.

The dialogue is between Paduvano, abbreviated PAD, and a spokesperson for the cards themselves, abbreviated CAR.

Zorli's discussion of Le Carte Parlanti, like Vitali's, starts with quotes that seem to say that Aretino is talking about both Germini and Tarocchi. Here is Zorli's quote, from pp. 50-51 of Aretino:

Né prima vi scappò di bocca l’abisso, la terra e il cielo che mi corsero in mente e i tarocchi e i germini, nei cui ordini sono…. i testimoni del vero… dove appare che il cielo consentì a così bel trovato, ecco che i pianeti e i segni, che si stanno ne i germini e ne i tarocchi, ne fanno fede.

My guess, omitting the first word, which I could make no sense of (I will return to this passage later):"...before I escape from the mouth of the abyss, the earth and the sky, there raced in my mind the Tarocchi and the Germini, in whose orders are...the witnesses of the truth...where it appears that heaven allowed something beautiful to be found, here that the planets and signs, which are from here Germini and from here Tarocchi, from here make faith."

The page reference is to pp. 50-51. Not only the signs of the zodiac, but also the planets. Are there others, besides the sun and the moon? (Later Aretino says that Mars. Mercury, Saturn, Venus, and Jupiter aren't invited to this "Card-ology" (Cartilogia) Banquet. This passage isn't quoted by either Vitali or Zorli, so I'll give the reference later.)

PAD wonders if Tarocchi and Germini are cards. CAR says that they are "con buccia consimile..tutto una carne" (of a similar rind...of one flesh)." But in them is something other-worldly, Zorli paraphrases.

Vitali has none of this; but then comes this, in Aretino (I quote from Vitali now):

CAR: Or alla causa, perché il Cielo interviene nel collegio del nostro numero, egli è chiaro che non si rompe un bicchiere quaggiuso che nol permetta chi sta là suso.
PAD: Perché così?
CAR: Va, dimandane il Cancro, il Sagittario, il Pesce, il Leo, il Libra, il Capricorno, il Gemini, il Tauro, il Vergine, l’Ariete, lo Scorpio, e l’Acquario, che nei Germini (i tarocchi fiorentini, n.d.r) e nei Tarocchi si son fatti ritrarre, forse perché i cervelli di coloro che se gli rivolgono fra le dita…
PAD: Becchin su del celi celorum
CAR: Madesì
PAD: Ah, ah, ah,ah

Here is Vitali's translation (Note added 3/1/12: I quote these translations on letarot.it without fully endorsing them; they are all we have, and they are better than anything I could come up with on my own. Where problems in translation affect the concerns of this thread, I will try to address them, here or later.):

CAR: Going to the cause, the Sky [Heaven?] takes part in our whole number, and it is clear that no glass can be broken down on earth if the Sky up above doesn’t want to.
PAD: Why?
CAR: Go and ask to Cancer, Sagittarius, Pisces, Leo, Libra, Capricorn, Gemini, Taurus, Virgo, Aries, Scorpio and Aquarius, well painted in Germini (Florentine tarots) and in tarots, maybe because the brains of those who handle them….
PAD: Taking from the upper Sky..
CAR: Yes.
PAD: Ah, ah, ah,ah

In Zorli's text, this is on p. 53.

A little later Zorli quotes, also from p. 53, the first part of a sentence of which Vitali gives the whole. It continues just where the previous quote left off:

CAR. Anche il sole, anche la luna, anche le stelle ci han voluto essere dipinte per dimostrare che il giuoco si frequenta il dì e la notte, da ciascuno e in ogni lato.

(CAR: Even the sun, even the moon, even the stars wanted to be painted to show that the game can be played during the day or night, and at every side.)

These cards, Sole, Luna, and Stella, are in both Tarocchi and Germini, Zorli notes.

The next sentence refers to two more cards. Again here is the sentence, from Vitali:

PAD: Poiché vi degnate di espormi il tutto, chiaritemi del perché la Giustizia e l’Angelo si travaglino in simil tresca?

(PAD: Since you do explain everything, please tell me why Justice and the Angel work in this affair?)

CA's answer need not detain us; it is quoted by Vitali.

After that, in Zorli's narrative, nothing is mentioned until p. 60, where a lot of cards are presented one after one. Here is the dialogue as Vitali quotes it, of which Zorli gives fragments

CAR: ....doppo il Cielo interessato nei nostri affari, ci volse intrigare ancora il mondo.
PAD: Seguitelo.
CAR: Il mondo che tu disegni in noi testimonia università dei giuocatori e le qualità delle frenesie loro.
PAD: Chi ci avria mai pensato?
CAR: Allegoricamente ci formi in seno Plutone, e la magion di lui; però che egli trascina a casa maledetta qualunque manca alla prudenzia, alla temperanza e alla fortezza che si figura nelle carte.
PAD: Di punto.
CAR: Il carro trionfale denota la vittoria che si trae nei combattimenti del giuoco.
PAD: Che cosa!
CAR: La morte significa l’angoscia di chi si rimane in nulla, gioucando.
PAD: Così va.
CAR: Il matto è per la stoltizia di coloro che si disperano per ciò.
PAD: È proprio pazzia.
CAR: Il traditore inferisce gli assassinamenti dei messi in mezzo.
PAD: Che ti parve!
CAR: Il papa rappresenta la fedeltà nel giuoco, e la sincerità di chi giuoca come si dee.
PAD: Buono per chi è tale.
CAR: La papessa è per l’astuzia di quegli che defraudano il nostro essere con le falsità che ci falsificano.
PAD: Forse che trasandate.
CAR: Lo imperatore contiene le leggi che si appartengono. Ed anco la dignità del grado in cui ognuno dee conservare sé stesso.
PAD: Interpretazioni da senno.
CAR: La ruota raggirata dai moti della fortuna, è tra noi locata con un mistero veduto da molti e compreso da pochi, e benché si tenga che ella predomini il tutto, in noi non ha ella ragione veruna.
PAD: L’ho carissimo.
CAR: La regina dinota il nostro essere Signore delle anime giocatrici.
PAD: È ragionevole.

(CAR: After the image of the Sky that is interested in our things, we would like to talk again about the world.
PAD: Go on.
CAR: The world you do paint on us testify the universality of gamers and the quality of their frenzies.
PAD: Who could think about that?
CAR: Allegorically you do create us into Pluto and his house, but he drags into the curse house everyone who is not prudent, who has not temperance and the strength painted on cards.
PAD: Right.
CAR: The triumphal Chariot denotes the victory that comes from game battles.
PAD: What!
CAR: Death signifies the pain of the one who loses everything by playing.
PAD: So is it.
CAR: The fool means the stupidity of those who despair for this reason.
PAD: It is really foolishness.
CAR: The betrayer attacks the murders of involved people.
PAD: I thought as much!
CAR: The pope represents faithfulness in the game, and sincerity of the one who plays in the right way.
PAD: Good for him.
CAR: The Popess means the shrewdness of those who defraud our being with falsehoods that fake us.
PAD: Maybe they’re neglected.
CAR: The emperor has lows that belong to each other. And even the dignity needed for everyone to take care about himself.
PAD: Sensible interpretations.
CAR: The wheel moved by fortune turns is set with a mystery that many people see and few people understand, and even if we believe it dominates everything, it does not win upon us.
PAD: I see.
CAR: the queen denotes we are the Ladies of gamer souls.
PAD: Reasonable.

So we have "Mondo," "Plutone, " and "la magion di lui." i.e. "Magion di Plutone" (not Marcos's "casa"). (Added 3/1/12: The word "casa" appears in the next phrase, "casa maladetta," accursed house.]

But then, also p. 60, comes not only "la Temperanza" and "la Fortezza, " but "la Prudentia." Zorli points out that Prudentia occurs in Germini but not Tarocchi.

Also in this passage are "il Carro trionfal", "la Morte," "il Matto." "il Traditore," "il Papa," "la Papessa," and "lo Emperadore." The sentence about the Emperor should read, I think, "The Emperor has the laws that pertain to him."

Then, still in the same passage, comes "la Ruoto, raggirata da i moto de la fortuna...", followed by the mention of something called "la Regina." Zorli thinks that this last is not the Empress, because that card is later mentioned by name. Perhaps Zorli is hinting that "Regina" might be a name Aretino is giving to Fortuna, because he quotes the "Regina" passage in a way that connects it to "fortuna". Here is the passage as Zorli gives it:

La Ruota raggirata da i moti de la fortuna è tra noi locata con un misterio veduto da molti e compreso da pochi e, baneché si tenga che ella predomini il tutto, in noi (carte) non ha ella ragione veruna... La Regina dinota il nostro essere signore de gli animi giocatrici.(pag. 61)

And here again is Vitali's somewhat awkward English translation:

CAR: The wheel moved by fortune turns is set with a mystery that many people see and few people understand, and even if we believe it dominates everything, it does not win upon us.
PAD: I see.
CAR: the queen denotes we are the Ladies of gamer souls.
PAD: Reasonable.

Looking up the words of CAR's "in noi (carte) non ha ella ragione veruna," I think what it means is "in us (cards) she has no power." Running CAR's last sentence, "La Regina dinota il nostro essere signore de gli animi giocatrici." through one translation machine, I get, "The Queen denotes our being gentleman of the minds players." Another says, "The Queen denotes our players to be lords of the spirits." It might mean "The Queen denotes us to be lords of the gamers' souls"; but that seems rather extreme. Perhaps it's "The Queen denotes us to be lords of the game's souls." I have no sense of who she is.

After that there is nothing until Zorli's p. 66. This part is not in Vitali. Cards are named, some for the second time, some under new names: first "Fortuna" again, then "Demonio," then "Morte," "Mondo" and "Trombe." The wording suggests to Zorli that Trombe is higher than Mondo. Zorli points out that this card "Trombe" was the highest card in Germini, whereas Mondo was the highest in Tarot. Here is Zorli's quote:

... la fortuna, che partecipa di tutte le operazioni umane, non può costringerti a far nulla, che, se potesse farlo, non che patisse di stare sotto al Demonio e sotto a la Morte, gli parrebbe avanzarsi sopra il Mondo e sopra le Trombe (pag. 66).

Having looked up the words, I will make a stab at a translation: "...fortune, who participates in all human operations, cannot force you to do anything, so that if not suffering being under the Demon and below Death, she seems to advance above the World and above the Trumpet." In other words, I think, if Fortune doesn't wish to remain powerless, has to become Divine Providence.

Zorli's point, I think, is that in naming the Trumpet last, he is implying that it is last in the sequence. That fits the Germini order. But in the A Tarocchi order (of Florence among other places), Angelo was also higher than Mondo (http://l-pollett.tripod.com/cards26.htm). But there is reason enough for thinking that Aretino is describing a Germini order, or at least a different deck: the repetition of "Fortuna" and "Morte," and the change of titles, to "Demonio" and "Trombe" from his former "Plutone" and "Angelo."

Then on p. 69, Zorli, says, other cards are mentioned. His quotations are fragmentary, and in any case he leaves one out, the Vecchio. So I will again give Vitali's fuller version:

PAD: Ora al vecchio.
CAR: Esso dimostra con la lanterna che tiene in mano, che bisogna veder lume, e con la candela dello intelletto accesa è di mestiero d’entrare in giuoco stando sempre nella saviezza dell’uomo maturo.
PAD: A che fine è la Imperatrice nei Tarocchi?
CAR: Ella non ci sta come nei versi il vocabolo che fa la rima, ma per la significanza della imperiosità che hanno le carte in altrui.
PAD: Il Bagatella?
CAR: La ciarmeria del suo che ella è dentro e che ella è fuora, avvertisce altri del non lasciar gioucar di mano a chi ci mescola ed alza a suo modo.
PAD: E l’Amore?
CAR: Cotesto traforello, cotesto furfantina, cotesto impiegatorio è il sollecito che commuove le volontà che si pascono del giocatore. Onde ognun ci corre dietro, benché non gli siamo punto ingrate.

(PAD: What about the old man?
CAR: he shows with his lantern that it is necessary to see clearly, and with the candle of intellect on, it is possible to play but with the wisdom of the old man.
PAD: What about the empress of Tarots?
CAR: She’s not doing a rhyme as verses do, but she means the importance of other players’ cards.
PAD: What about the Magician?
CAR: The charlatanry he has inside and outside him is a warning for everybody not to leave one’s hand to those who have shuffled and cut in his own way.
PAD: What about Love?
CAR: This prickling arrow pitcher, this scoundrel, this employer is the push of passion that devours the gamer. So people run after us, since we are not ungrateful to them.)

So we have "il vecchio," "la Imperatrice," "il Bagatella," and "l'Amore."

And that is the end of Zorli's (and Vitali's) discusson of particular cards in Le Carte Parlanti. What follows in Zorli is a discussion of what Aretino says about Germini and Tarocchi on pp. 178-179 of the edition he is using. I will ignore that discussion (which I don't completely follow, and which he says is inconclusive), so as to stay focused on the question of the particular cards and their order.

At this point, what I needed to do was to verify the quotations using Zorli's page numbers and the book he used, and see if either he or Vitali left out the part that interested me, namely, the order of the trumps. Unfortunately, I can't find that edition on the Web. I have requested a 1992 reprint of Le Carte Parlanti ,with the same editors and publishers, from Interlibrary Loan; perhaps it is the same.

In the meantime, I did find another edition, a 1650, in Google Books, http://books.google.com/books?id=q6FKAA ... &q&f=false.

In this edition, I found Tarocchi and Germini mentioned together on the top of p. 12 and again on p. 13. The listing of the twelve signs of the zodiac is also on p. 13. On p. 14 we have Sole, Luna, Stella, Angelo, and Giusticia.

Then there is no mention of the cards again until the bottom of p. 19, with "Pluton" and "la maigon di lui," followed immediately, top of p. 20, with the mention of prudenzia, temperanza, and fortezza (uncapitalized, but "che se figura nella carte"). Then comes "morte," "matte," "traditore," "Papa," "Papessa," "Imperadore," and "La ruota raggirata da i moti della fortuna..." On p. 21 we have "Regina."

Then on p. 25 we have "Fortuna," "Demonio," "Mondo," and "Trombe." (The part about Mars, Mercury, Saturn, Venus, and Jupiter being excluded from the "Card-ology" banquet is on pp. 22-23.)

On p. 27 we have "il Vecchio," "la Imperatrice," "il Bagatella," and "l'Amore," all in the context of "Tarocchi." On p. 28 "Mondo" is mentioned in connection with "Amore."

So (1) p. 12-13 here corresponds to 50-51 in the edition Zorli is using: (2) pp. 13-14 to 53; (3) pp. 19-21 to his 60; (4) p. 25 to his 66 and (5) pp. 27-28 to his 69.

The first gap is 2 pp. in Zorli, 1 in the 1650.The second gap is 7 pp. in Zorli, 6 in the 1650. The third gap is 6 pp. in Zorli, 5-6 in the 1650. The fourth gap gap is 2 pp. in both. If anything has been expunged from the 1650, it isn't much.

I do see slightly different wording or punctuation in some of the passages. In this regard, the 1650 might even be an improvement on the 1543, in the sense of incorporating corrections. An example is the first passage that Zorli quoted, the first mention of Tarocchi and Germini (Zorli's p. 50, p. 11 of the 1650). The 1650 has for its first word "Mà" rather than "Nè": "But" makes more sense than "Neither." We do not yet have a "critical edition" of Le Carte Parlanti.

In neither Vitali, nor Zorli, nor the 1650 edition do I see titles arranged in anything like a recognizable sequence. Moreover, I cannot see where Aretino distinguishes the Germini titles from the Tarocchi ones, except perhaps in the passage repeating "Fortuna" and "Morte." Perhaps there is something in his language elsewhere to indicate which is which, but if so neither Zorli nor Vitali has commented on it.

For the sake of completeness, I continued searching the 1650 page by page, to see if there was anything else pertaining to the particular tarocchi cards. I don't read Italian, but I think I can identify typical words that occur in Italian tarocchi card titles well enough. I indeed did see an occasional word here and there--Mondo and Amore were the most common--but not in any context that suggested tarocchi. I went through the whole 294 pages and came up with nothing.

It is possible that such a list occurs in some other edition, expurgated from the 1650; I don't know. It seems to me that either Vitali or Zorli would have included it, if it were in the 1543. Marcos gives Berti 2007 as his reference. It would be helful if Marcos would tell us any edition and page number cited by Berti. Or was Berti simply copying other writers for his list?

In the meantime, I am skeptical of the existence of any definite order to Aretino's naming of tarocchi trumps in Carte Parlanti.

Moreover, I doubt very much that the order is one that has Giusticia low (i.e. below Morte), because of the juxtaposition of "Angelo" and "Giusticia" in PAD's question, quoted by Vitali and Zorli (on p. 15 of the 1650 edition):

PAD: Poiché vi degnate di espormi il tutto, chiaritemi del perché la Giustizia e l’Angelo si travaglino in simil tresca?

(PAD: Since you do explain everything, please tell me why Justice and the Angel work in this affair?)

Actually, this translation seems to me not quite right, at least when I look up the individual words. How about: "Since you deign to reveal everything to me, please clarify why Justice and the Angel inflict in a similar intrigue?"? This combining of Justice and Angel in one question, with the implication that they are somehow working together, seems not to suggest the C order, where Justice and Angel are far apart in the sequence. In this sentence, moreover, he is not describing Germini, if Germini uses the title "Trombe" rather than "Angelo."

Aretino also describes Papa and Papessa together, a proximity which is characteristic of the B order. But grouping these two together is natural in any case. He also puts Temperentia and Fortezza together, characteristic of both B and A; but given that Prudentia is also in the same group, he is here probably describing Germini rather than Tarocchi.

It may be that Aretino's Tarocchi deck has an order characteristic of the B family, like all the other Venetian orderings in Marcos's lists. But given that Germini was Florentine, Aretino might have gotten his two decks from the same place; so we cannot rule out the A order. Perhaps someone will find something in Aretino's text or other works, or Zorli's and Vitali's research, to clarify the issue.

If anyone is interested, the original source for Marcos's list #4, Troilo Pomeran, is on the web at http://www.tretre.it/index.php?id=239&L=1, pp. 6, 7, 8, and 12, Kaplan has some of it translated in vol.2 p. 9. I have been wanting to see that text for a while. Thanks,TreTre.

Marcos, I love this thread you've initiated. I did not realize how much interesting 16th century Italian literature about the tarot is available, most of it on the Web. I know a lot of it had been mentioned before on THF and by Vitali, but I didn't quite get how interesting it all was, for understanding how the tarot was seen in that time and place.

I was surprised by how much of this material is already on Tarotpedia, or in books I can access with translations. But of course I want more. If someone such as myself, who doesn't know Italian (much less 16th century Italian), can help, let me know, you who are doing it (Marco and, I hope, others). At the moment, I am trying to read, using translation machines, the as yet untranslated passages in the part of Le Carte Parlanti in which the sentences about the tarot are embedded (pp. 11-28 of the 1650 edition). It is slow going for me; fortunately, his wit makes it fun, and I have Girolamo's clues to help me (for which I am grateful). The Troilo Pomeran is another work that looks interesting.

Hello Mike, I have corrected the French spelling in the Western orders table in my previous post. Thank you for pointing out those errors.

I have posted on Tarotpedia a rough translation of Aretino's letters CXVIII and DLXXII.

Thanks for the link to your translation of the letters. I don't know why I didn't think to look there before I put out my own guesses. The first letter also answers my other question, how do we know the Paduan is in Florence? Aretino speaks of "the six or eight hundred scudi that, with the help of all Florence, you gain each year from your work." That answers that.

I will go back and add this information and your translation of the passages from the letter that Girolamo quotes in his article..

Since my post on Aretino's Le Carte Parlanti was rather long, I will post here a summary of the result I think I came to, a list that I think more accurately reflects the text, at least as much as I can find of it, than the one Marcos got from Berti.

8. 1543, Venezia: Aretino, Pietro. Le carte parlanti. Dialogo di Partenio Etiro nel quale si trata del Gioco con moralità piacevole .

On line: selections in Vitali, http://www.associazioneletarot.it/page.aspx?id=163, and Zorli, http://www.tretre.it/menu/accademia-del ... o-aretino/.
Text, 1650 edition: http://books.google.com/books?id=q6FKAA ... &q&f=false

Hardcopy: Text, per WorldCat: Giuseppe Casalegno and Gabriella Giaccone, editors; publisher Sellerio, Palermo 1992 (also 1998, per Zorli).

Other references: Giordano Berti, Storia dei tarocchi, publisher Oscar Mondadori, Milan 2007. Andy Pollett, http://l-pollett.tripod.com/cards26.htm

Disorder. The text presents the cards in the following order, except in the case of two Germini titles, here put next to their tarocchi titles. Capitalization as in 1650 text. (Zorli's and Vitali's vary) :

(Germini titles: il Cancro, il Sagittario, il Pesce, il Leo, il Libra, il Capricorno, il Gemini, il Tauro, il Vergine, l’Ariete, lo Scorpio, e l’Acquario)

il Sole
la Luna
le Stelle

il mondo (capitalized later)

la Giustizia
l’Angelo (later called "le Trombe," the Germini title)

Plutone (later called "il Demonio," perhaps the Germani title)
la magion di lui (i.e. Plutone; also called "casa maledetta")

(prudenzia, from Germini)
temperanza
fortezza (Zorli capitalizes all three, Vitali doesn't)

il carro trionfale
la morte (capitalized later)
il matto
il traditore
il Papa
la Papessa
lo Imperadore
la ruota ("...raggirata dai moti della fortuna") (later, la Fortuna)
(La Regina: unknown card, unknown deck)

il vecchio
la Imperatrice
il Bagatella
l’Amore

Just a question for clarification on your Etteilla materials, Mike.

Is it "Elexis" in Etteilla's original, or "Alexis"?

In your English translations and explanations you always write "Alexis", while in your French transcriptions you always write "Elexis", e.g. on your blog -
http://etteillastrumps.blogspot.fr/2012 ... whole.html

On Aeclectic -
http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.php? ... tcount=130

- and in this thread.

Which form of the name did Etteilla write? I want to be sure I am citing it correctly.

Mike - did you miss this post? I'm bumping it in case you did.

I'm going to assume it was "Alexis" in Etteilla's French as well, and therefore change your transcription.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:Just a question for clarification on your Etteilla materials, Mike.

Is it "Elexis" in Etteilla's original, or "Alexis"?

In your English translations and explanations you always write "Alexis", while in your French transcriptions you always write "Elexis", e.g. on your blog -
http://etteillastrumps.blogspot.fr/2012 ... whole.html

On Aeclectic -
http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.php? ... tcount=130

- and in this thread.

Which form of the name did Etteilla write? I want to be sure I am citing it correctly.

Here are the passages I am referring to -

(1) J'avoue que c'est sous cette division que j'ai, dans mes premieres études de ce Livre, cherché à l'apprendir, aidé des sages avis d'un sage Piémontois (a) très-agé, & se disant petit fils d'Elexis dit le Piémontois. (Il étoit singulierement instruit, & discouroit avec une sagesse & une précision net ses idées. Si, par exemple, il parloit du Créator, il saisait sentir, rapport à la Nature physique, la nécessité qu'il fût de tous les tems, soit par les anneaux de la Nature même, soit par le divin Ouvrier qui les avoit fabriqués & liés les uns dans les autres, de maniere que l'on n'en découvroit aucune soudure.

It saisoit comparoître le mensonge au pie de la vérité, par une fourmiliere de métaphores, dont une seule, prise sans choix, pouurra nous donner quelques lègeres notions de son amour pour cette vérité.

Un corps quelconque (supposé une pierre) s'offroit il à ses regards, il laissoit présupposer quel poids il pourroit avoir; & continuant, il disoit: Je ne puis pas exiger que vous disiez juste son poids, parce que vous n'êtes pas dans l'habitude de juger du poids d'un corps sans les balances; ainsi je demande seulement que vous en approchiez le plus près qu'il vous sera possible, afin de vous faire sentir que le mensonge se met toujours de même le plus près de la vérité, parce que ce ne peut être qu'en lui faisant allusion qu'il peut entraîner les Ignorans. Pesons tout avec les balances de la Science & de la Sagesse, & nous aurons pour nous la Justice.

(a) Erant à Rouen, en 1757, je fis la connoissance d'un nommé Lecomte, Parisien, surnommé le Voyageur; & sur ce qui'il me vis occupé à la Cartonomancie Francoise, il me dis qu'il connoissoit un Homme qui en faisoit autant que moi, avec de grandes Cartes; et sur ce que je lui témoignai le plus grand desir de le voir & de parler à cet Homme, il me dit que je pourrois peut-être le trouver à l'Orient, où il étoit allé pour s'embarquer. Je partis dés le même jour pour cette Ville; mais l'y ayant cherché, j'appris qu'il étoit allé à Lamballe, où je le trouvai; & jugeant de ma curiosité par plus de cent vingt lieues de chemin, il me satisfit autant qu'il fut en son pouvoir, me donnant des Notes par écrit sur le Jeu de Tarots, qui'il nomma Livre Egyptien, lesquelles Notes sont encore en mes mains. Enfin Elexis me proposa de m'emmener outre-mer; & sur ce que je ne voulus pas y consentir, nous nous quittâmes, après huit jours de société, &c.

Hi, Ross. Yes, I did miss your posts. Sorry. I used an OCR program to transcribe the text. The danger is that it makes mistakes. So do humans, of course. I try to catch the mistakes as I go. But proper names in particular slip by, since their spelling plays no role in the grammar of the sentence. Checking my xerox of p. 137 of the 2nd Cahier, I see that the original text clearly has "Alexis" and not "Elexis". I never noticed. I will go back and change the spelling everywhere it occurs. If I find that spelling elsewhere, I will check it against the xerox to be sure. Thanks for letting me know.

A list that I could not find in this thread is that of "Li Trionfi de’ Tarochini sopra il Techeli, Ribelle dell’Imperatore", which Pratesi gives at http://trionfi.com/pratesi-cartomancer. It is rather late. The events described, according to Pratesi, are 1683, but it must be before 1725 because "papa" is there instead of a Moor. The event in question is late 17th century; the order is Bolognese.

Angel d’inferno sei Michel, che al Mondo
Tentasti d’Austria il Sol vendere nero,
Tu la Luna Ottomana, astro che immondo,
Suscitasti fellon contro l’Impero.

Stella d’onor della Saetta il pondo,
Qual Demonio infernal scoccasti invero,
Con influsso di Morte il brando a tondo
Girasti Traditor, Vecchio severo.

La Ruota alla Fortuna arpia superba
con la Forza inchiodar speravi affatto,
Di te Giusta vendetta il Dio ti serba.

Tempra l’ardir, trattien il Carro, e ratto
Lascia d’Amor d’Imper la voglia acerba,
Ne il Papa tien qual Bagattin, o Matto.

A translation of the first four lines is at http://www.letarot.it/page.aspx?id=199&lng=eng.

I might also mention that Vitali and Zanetti have a number of lists from Bologna in their book Il Tarocchino di Bologna, 2005, all in strict Bolognese order, and with the same titles, except that one, "La Granda de Tarochini che invita le sfere cleesti aeree ferree, e sotteranee, al Trionfante Applauso universale del Sig. Andrea Casale", has "Temperamento" in the poem, although "Tempra" in the final stanza (in which the applauding cards are simply listed). "Tempra" is the usual title. The poem discreetly omits reference to any "papi", although the "quattro Papi" are included in the final stanza. This poem, about a hero who died in 1639, is discussed with quotes in Italian and English at http://www.letarot.it/page.aspx?id=243&lng=ENG.