Re: cards in England 1413 ????

11
robert wrote:I have the book.

I'll try to scan the pages tonight.. but generally.. here is an example...

Item in xiii die Septembris perdebat apud Docmersfeld a cardys xx s. xl d.
... :-) ... that's fine ... "he lost at 13th of September (1413 ? 1414 ?) at Docmersfeld in card games 20 shilling 11 pence" or something similar, I would assume, but Ross can it do better.
So Mortimer was at Docmersfeld (location or person ?) at 13th September (1413 ? 1414 ?) and he lost something about 20 shilling (by such data we can possibly evaluate, how high they played occasionally).

Well ... such stupid sentences make playing card history and we must know them, otherwise there's no progress .... :-) ... even if we only learn, that there are only stupid sentences. When we know them and tell them others, the general overview becomes better and future ways to search this book, wrong expectations, false theories etc. are spared ... at least in this point.

That changes about 45 years of English playing card history considerably ... that's not a bad deal.

I for instance learn, that the English way to count money "s. d." for "shilling and pence" (if this is correct interpreted) is similar to "soldi and denari" in Italy. And the sign for pound is written like an "L" and in Italy the currency above Soldi is "Lira", another L.

Which is somehow confirmed in this source, where it is said, that "L" stands for Libra, an old Roman pound.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: cards in England 1413 ????

13
Thanks very much Robert! What would we do without you? :D

I notice two spellings in the pages you give, "cardys" and "cartys".

Yes Huck, your translation is right. "Apud" means "at (the place/house of)". So the account can say "apud Wynsor" (at Windsor); "a" is "at", so "a cartys" (at cards).

I'm not sure about English monetary designations, though. L is li(b)ra, "pound", but I don't know if if s is shilling and d is "denari" for "pence".
Image

Re: cards in England 1413 ????

14
Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:Thanks very much Robert! What would we do without you? :D

I notice two spellings in the pages you give, "cardys" and "cartys".

Yes Huck, your translation is right. "Apud" means "at (the place/house of)". So the account can say "apud Wynsor" (at Windsor); "a" is "at", so "a cartys" (at cards).

I'm not sure about English monetary designations, though. L is li(b)ra, "pound", but I don't know if if s is shilling and d is "denari" for "pence".
Yup!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pound_sterling
Prior to decimalisation, the pound was divided into 20 shillings and each shilling into 12 pence, making 240 pence to the pound. The symbol for the shilling was "s"—not from the first letter of the word, but from the Latin solidus. The symbol for the penny was "d", from the French denier, from the Latin denarius (the solidus and denarius were Roman coins

Re: cards in England 1413 ????

15
Well ... great !!! ...

I count 3 appearances of cards, assuming that other names don't mean card games. But "Raffele ..." Ruff, Rompha?

Item in XIII die Septembris perdebat apud Docmersfeld a cardys xx s. xl d.
Item in eodem die [= 17th of September, likely at loge de Wynsor] perdebat xx s. apud cardys.
Item in XIII die Octobris perdebat a cartys apud Mertun V s.

Docmersfeld ?
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... mpid=56750

loge de Wynsor = "royal lodges in Windsor park", as noted in the explanation
this? http://www.windsor-berkshire.co.uk/wind ... t-park.php

They seem to have 30 miles distance.

Mertun seems to be Merton near Wimbledon ?

How much more pages are there? More notes about cards?
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: cards in England 1413 ????

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Huck wrote:Well ... great !!! ...

I count 3 appearances of cards, assuming that other names don't mean card games. But "Raffele ..." Ruff, Rompha?
Maybe "raffle"?
Item in XIII die Septembris perdebat apud Docmersfeld a cardys xx s. xl d.
Item in eodem die [= 17th of September, likely at loge de Wynsor] perdebat xx s. apud cardys.
Item in XIII die Octobris perdebat a cartys apud Mertun V s.
Well, he only lost 5 shillings on 14 October.
Image

Re: cards in England 1413 ????

17
Just an addition ... at the surviving playing entries from Louis d'Orleans (around 1396, so not very far), which made Schreiber call him a "Spielratte" (playing rat), it seems clear, that this activity had political background. Louis had founded a knight order and the arrangement seems to have aimed to gain forces for the Nicopolis adventure 1396 ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Nicopolis

... so this was not game, but investment. A lot of the French nobility paid with their lives.
Burgundy's interest in sponsoring the crusade was in increasing his and his house's prestige and power and, historian Barbara Tuchman notes, "since he was the prince of self-magnification, the result was that opulent display became the dominant theme; plans, logistics, intelligence about the enemy came second, if at all."[10] In 1394, Burgundy extracted 120,000 livres from Flanders, sufficient to begin preparations for a crusade, and in January 1395 sent word to Sigismund, the King of Hungary that an official request to the King of France would be accepted.[10] (Sigismund became Holy Roman Emperor in 1433).

In August, Sigismund's delegation of four knights and a bishop arrived in the court of Paris to paint a description of how "40,000" Turks were despoiling and imperiling Christian lands and beg, on Sigismund of Hungary's behalf, for help. Charles VI, having secured a peace with England through the marriage of his daughter, was able to reply that "as chief of the Christian kings" it was his responsibility to protect Christianity and punish Sultan Bayezid. French nobility responded enthusiastically to the declaration; Philip of Artois, Count of Eu, the Constable of France, and Jean Le Maingre, the Marshal of France, declared participation in the crusade the duty of every "man of valor".
Henry V., who soon after (1415) was victorious at Azincourt and this surely was already in preparation in 1413, likely followed a similar strategy. Gambling attracts young men, which are willing to risk something ... and it is not bad, if the sovereign looses some money to reach good emotional conditions.
Huck
http://trionfi.com