mmfilesi wrote:

Huck wrote:
The loss is in this case probably not accidental, but intentional.

Intersting! Please, can you said why do you think this?

It's totally not probable, that - via accident - from 40 cards only 1 gets lost and from 24 cards 7 and from 16 or 24 cards 5 or 13. That's nearly, as if from 13 attemps you get 12 noir or rouge. This happens occasionally, but it's seldom.

What's really strange: Why do we have 8 small arcana missing in Cary-Yale and why 8 small arcana in Brera-Brambilla? And in each case one number card and 7 court cards?

... And why these are together 16? ...

Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote: It's not a problem. There is no evidence that it was a wedding gift for Bianca Maria. None whatsoever. Huck knows this. There is also no record of any pack of carte da trionfi being commissioned as a wedding gift nor given as one at an actual wedding. This is a powerful myth, perhaps started by Cicognara, when he suggested that the Cary Yale was made for the marriage of Filippo Maria and Maria di Savoia in 1428.

We've evidence for playing cards as wedding presents for Bianca Maria Sforza 1494 (the playing cards were shown and discussed between bride and groom before the wedding night) and for her stepdaughter's marriage in 1496. We have close relations between other festivities dates and dates of Trioni card production notes. That happens in Siena, in Ferrara, in Naples. We have various details, which point to Trionfi card use mainly by women. We have cards with women on triumphal chariots and we have enough reports about weddings with women on triumphal chariots at such occasions, connected to relevant triumphal activities. We've a similar production in a festivity book of 1475.

All together card production for the wedding are not a myth. Nothing in history has 100% evidence.

No other date than Bianca Maria's wedding has more probability than this date.

What's really strange: Why do we have 8 small arcana missing in Cary-Yale and why 8 small arcana in Brera-Brambilla? And in each case one number card and 7 court cards?

LOL!!!! Yes, its really curious... Damned! I dont sleep this night. I need forget it, quicly!

********

Well, go to the dates.

a) We have this spectrum: 1441-1447. Ok?

b) Its possible Filppo, blind and near death, designed a deck? I think not. In this case, we have from 1441 to 1445.

c) There is some event related with victories (triumphs) between 1441 and 1445? I only know the married of Bianca and the born of Galeazo Maria Sforza (1444), but its another case positive, good, where a grandparent wants the best fortune for his grandson. And in these two dates, I like the marriage, because I think the love card is not just a marriage, it also symbolizes an important alliance for Filippo. It is an alliance that rescue the duchy of Milan.

d) I believe that duplication is not necesarilly in figures and triumphs, but only figures. In 1441, Filippo think in the lady strong. He knows that Bianca is his sole heir (and I think it was really her daughter.) We know that the court of Agnese and Bianca was composed mainly of women.

Emperador = Male
Empress = Female
Chariot = Female
Love = Mix.
Hope, Charity, fortress, faith = Female
Judge = Neutral
Fame = Female
Dead = Neutral

Thats, it is a deck which reinforces the idea of women. In 1441, Filippo may be very happy with his daugther, female, who saves the duchy of Milan, and is a very important value against weapons of Sforza. (My daughter, even women, not worth less than your sword). Uf, I cant explain better my idea about this with my English prehistoric, sorry.

********

(the playing cards were shown and discussed between bride and groom before the wedding night)

This documents its published in trionfi.com?

mmfilesi wrote:

What's really strange: Why do we have 8 small arcana missing in Cary-Yale and why 8 small arcana in Brera-Brambilla? And in each case one number card and 7 court cards?

LOL!!!! Yes, its really curious... Damned! I dont sleep this night. I need forget it, quicly!

I think he's just pulling your leg.

(the playing cards were shown and discussed between bride and groom before the wedding night)

This documents its published in trionfi.com?

I'd like the source for this too. I haven't found it, after looking for hours googling "Bianca maria sforza" +"kartenspiel" and "spielkarten". Most of what I get comes from Huck, autorbis etc. No original source. His normal description is that Bianca Maria brought some cards from Italy with her. Nothing about a wedding gift.

The other thing I would like to know the source of is Huck's repeated assertion that Alfonso and Filippo Maria played cards in 1435. I can't find this in my sources either.

The "chess club" reference is also obscure. The only reference I find in the notes to Decembrio is that "June 8, 1429, in Milan, a player played without looking at the chessboard". No mention of its having anything to do with Filippo. They also note that Muir, "A History of Milan under the Visconti" (1924) describes Filippo Maria "chess, which he played with skill" (p. 134). But she must have relied on Decembrio's original description, so there is no further basis to it.

Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:

mmfilesi wrote:

What's really strange: Why do we have 8 small arcana missing in Cary-Yale and why 8 small arcana in Brera-Brambilla? And in each case one number card and 7 court cards?

LOL!!!! Yes, its really curious... Damned! I dont sleep this night. I need forget it, quicly!

I think he's just pulling your leg.

... ... no I'm not pulling his leg ... this looks like a very strange accident. Actually it looks not like an accident.

Huck wrote: (the playing cards were shown and discussed between bride and groom before the wedding night)

I'd like the source for this too.

I haven't found it, after looking for hours googling "Bianca maria sforza" +"kartenspiel" and "spielkarten". Most of what I get comes from Huck, autorbis etc. No original source. His normal description is that Bianca Maria brought some cards from Italy with her. Nothing about a wedding gift.

It was in a book inside the library, which I read maybe 20 years ago. It contained a detailed description of the wedding night in German language. I didn't know then, that this ever would become of greater interest.
I also searched for it.

Regesten:

The wedding night had been at 9th of March.

Nr. 457: Die Mailänder Gesandten berichten Hg Ludovico Sforza: KM traf abends mit geringer Begleitung in Hall ein. Kgin Bianca kam mit dem Schiff aus Innsbruck. Kurze Begrüßung durch KMs Kanzler und den Mailänder Gesandten Jason Maynus. Abendtafel und Festlichkeiten. Beilager.

KOP: Bericht des Mailänder Gesandten vom folgenden Tag (Nr 458); dgl. Bericht der Frankfurter Gesandten vom 14. März (Nr 472); dgl. Bericht des Gesandten von Ferrara Collenuccio vom 18. März (Nr 491); vgl auch den Mailänder Sammelbericht bei Calvi (C 6, 61 ff.) vom 15. März: dort auch der Inhalt der Begrüßungsrede durch KMs Kanzler (Stürtzel?).

Nr. 458: 1494 März 9 Hall

Die Gesandten Zaccaria Contarini und Girolamo Lion berichten vom Kgshof nach Venedig: Sonntag den 9. März (Domenega passata ... a dì 9) kam KM nach Hall, 5 Meilen von Innsbruck entfernt, wo ihn die Kgin im Hof ihrer Wohnung erwartete. Er stieg vom Pferde, und sie reichten sich die Hände. Der Bf von Brixen entschuldigte KM wegen seines langen Ausbleibens, das in wichtigen Geschäften begründet sei. Sie begaben sich zusammen mit Ehg Sigmund und dessen Frau zum Mahl. In der folgenden Nacht schliefen sie miteinander.

NB: Aus dem Bericht der venez. Gesandten vom 18. März (siehe Nr 488).

For the 11th is noted

Nr. 461: 1494 März 11 Hall

KM weilt in Hall; er spielte mit Bianca Karten. Abends ein häusliches Tanzfest.

Bericht des Collenuccio vom 18. März (siehe Nr 491).

Nr. 472: 1494 März 14 (Innsbruck)

Die Gesandten Ludwig zum Paradyse und Johann zum Jungen berichten dem Rat von Frankfurt, daß KM am 9. März zu Hall die Hochzeit vollzogen hat und am 12. März nach Innsbruck geritten ist, von wo er mit der Kgin am 18. März aufbrechen und nach Augsburg oder Ulm und dann nach Aachen ziehen will. Frytag nach Letare 1494.

ED: J 1, II, 580 f., Nr 723 (aus: Frankfurt StA).

Nr. 491: 1494 März 18 Innsbruck

Pandolfo Collenuccio berichtet Hg Ercole d'Este von Ferrara sehr ausführlich über die Hochzeitsfeierlichkeiten in Hall und Innsbruck. Inspruchis 18. Martij 1494. servus PANDULPHUS. ss.

ORG: Modena AS, dis amb germ, busta 1. ‒ NB: Die Einzelheiten dieses Berichtes oben unter dem 16. März (Nr 477). ‒ LIT: W 1, I, 367 f.

Card playing is noted for 2 days after the wedding (11th of March). I would assume, that the playing card observation in the wedding night appears in the report of Collenuccio ... this seems most plausible.

However the Referenz to nr. 477 seems to be wrong, or I misunderstand it.

Nr. 477: 1494 März 15 Innsbruck

Erasmus Brascha berichtet Hg Ludovico (Sforza), KM wolle kommenden Montag zu der geplanten Besprechung mit dem Kg von Frankreich (Karl VIII.) aufbrechen. Zur Kgin (Bianca Maria) ist KM sehr zärtlich und aufmerksam und überhäuft sie mit Geschenken; sie schlafen täglich beisammen; KM wünscht, daß Bianca Maria kommenden Sonntag (16. März), deutsch gekleidet, mit der schönen Krone, die er ihr geschenkt hat, (mit ihm) zur Messe geht. Jason Maynus wird am Sonntag nachmittag eine feierliche Rede halten. Den Gesandten von Montferrat wurde in Anwesenheit der Mailänder Gesandten Audienz gewährt, zum Zeichen der besonderen Freundschaft mit Mailand. Ex Hispruc 15 Martij 1494.

KOP: Mailand AS, ASforz, pot est, alem, cart 578. ‒ EDD: C 6, 61 ff.. ‒ NB: Ebenfalls am 15. März 1494 berichtete Bianca Maria selbst ihrem Onkel von ihrem ehrenvollen Einzug in Innsbruck, von den kniefälligen Ehrenbezeugungen, welche ihr die anwesenden Fürsten erwiesen, sowie von der täglich größer werdenden Liebe KMs. Sie dankte dem Onkel dafür, daß er ihr zu so großem Glück verholfen habe (a.a.O.).

I don't understand the reference system good enough, but I would assume, that the report, that I read, had been based on one of the above given sources. I remember clearly, that it was a longer article and that playing cards were brought by Bianca Maria and she showed them to Maximilian, and Maximilian gave all signs, that he found them amusing.

Various sources without detailed references report, that Bianca Maria played very much cards. She was addicted to them ... and to chocolate.

"Das Leben in der Hofburg war langweilig. Bianca Maria spielte oft Karten und stickte sehr viel. Ab und zu fand sie in einer Jagd Abwechslung. Sie erlernte die deutsche Sprache nie richtig und umgab sich mit einer Dienerschar aus ihrer italienischen Heimat. "
http://fp.tsn.at/hall/maximilian/bianca ... sforza.htm

The other thing I would like to know the source of is Huck's repeated assertion that Alfonso and Filippo Maria played cards in 1435. I can't find this in my sources either.

Kaplan II, p. 84, above left column

The "chess club" reference is also obscure. The only reference I find in the notes to Decembrio is that "June 8, 1429, in Milan, a player played without looking at the chessboard". No mention of its having anything to do with Filippo. They also note that Muir, "A History of Milan under the Visconti" (1924) describes Filippo Maria "chess, which he played with skill" (p. 134). But she must have relied on Decembrio's original description, so there is no further basis to it.

The 1427 note (chess club Milan) is from Pratesi's chess researches. I have a copy - somewhere, which means, not easy to find. Almost a longer Latin text. It appeared in a small magazine made by Depaulis in the 1990's. The 1429 note might be the same, that you found, I remember the visit of a master player (same Pratesi article).

Huck wrote: The 1427 note (chess club Milan) is from Pratesi's chess researches. I have a copy - somewhere, which means, not easy to find. Almost a longer Latin text. It appeared in a small magazine made by Depaulis in the 1990's. The 1429 note might be the same, that you found, I remember the visit of a master player (same Pratesi article).

Okay, thanks. Yes, we were talking about it on LTarot in 2004 -
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LTarot/message/1001

You promised to post it - it would be good to have it.

Kaplan reference - I'm not sure where he got that. I find it hard to trust him. But it is duly noted - thanks for the reminder - and I'll keep looking.

Huck wrote:
For the 11th is noted

Nr. 461: 1494 März 11 Hall

KM weilt in Hall; er spielte mit Bianca Karten. Abends ein häusliches Tanzfest.

Bericht des Collenuccio vom 18. März (siehe Nr 491).

Card playing is noted for 2 days after the wedding (11th of March). I would assume, that the playing card observation in the wedding night appears in the report of Collenuccio ... this seems most plausible.

Okay, thanks. Kaiser Maximilian played cards with Bianca. This gives me some keywords. I'll look for this Collenuccio.

I would say, however, that this doesn't seem to qualify as a "wedding deck".

Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:
Okay, thanks. Kaiser Maximilian played cards with Bianca. This gives me some keywords. I'll look for this Collenuccio.

It's not in his COMPENDIO DE LE ISTORIE DEL REGNO DI NAPOLI -
http://www.bibliotecaitaliana.it/exist/ ... &pageNum=1

Neither Maximilian nor Bianca Sforza appears in the indices - not the right topic anyway (but you never know where an anecdote might show up).

Another book of his, Descriptio, seu potius Summa rerum Germanicarum, seems more appropriate, but I haven't found a copy of it on the web.

Perfect, thank Huck...

This is the text of Decembrio about Chess (LXI)

Nei giorni festivi tavolta giocaba a dadi mentre, piu che giocare, preferiva assistere alle partite con quelli che la gente chiama schachi.

So the situation is as follows:

In support of 1441 and a structure of 16, several arguments have been exposed.

Ross argues we only can said "before 1447" and would have a structure of 25. Ross, I dont know if you have more arguments in favor of this hypothesis. It would be interesting to know more about it.

Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:
Okay, thanks. Kaiser Maximilian played cards with Bianca. This gives me some keywords. I'll look for this Collenuccio.

I would say, however, that this doesn't seem to qualify as a "wedding deck".

The detailed description, that I read long ago, contained enough to call it a wedding deck and that it was Bianca Maria, who brought the cards. And it was in the wedding evening (9th of March), that Bianca Maria showed him the cards and the amused about it, not at 11th of March, as the note in the Regesten to 11th March might suggest (occasionally one sees 16th of March as wedding date, but in the Regesten it seems clearly, that it had been the 9th of March). Though I don't remember, that was called Tarot cards, also I don't remember "Trionfi cards", though I might have missed such a note in this time. Maybe "Italian cards".

Generally it seems, that it was a poor wedding scene, as Maximilian had not much money, and he artificially avoided, that some delegations took part. Also Maximilian was occupied with much official business and war activities (considering, that he took the title short time before, the general hasty scene is imaginable). The bride had to wait 2 1/2 monthes, before he found some time for the wedding and to see her. "She" was not so important. Most important had been, that Bianca Maria brought money.

The book made a serious impression, of good quality in research, though somewhat older and not "too scientific", but more engged to tell the story. A general serious text (Maximilian) seems to be from Hermann Wiesflecker, but I've doubts, as I think, that the book was too old for him as author.

Personally I think, that Bianca Maria wedding cards might been those, which are housed according Kaplan in the Kestner Museum, Hannover (Kaplan p. 108). In style they seem to be similar to miniatures, which appeared in the 1490's of Milan.
Giovanni Ambrogio de Predis accompanied Bianca Maria to Innsbruck in 1493.