Re: "The 5x14 Theory: An Investigation" part II

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mmfilesi wrote: we are all acording with 16? :)
No, I think it was 24 + Fool. All of the standard subjects, with the three Theological Virtues added.

Reasons - the suits are extended, so it is logical the trumps would be too.
The suits are extended by 2 cards, so the trumps should be extended by 3 to have the same ratio - 2:3
The extended cards are females - persons in the one case, allegories in the other.

All of this depends on the theory that the standard series existed before the Cary Yale was made, so by the mid-1440s (I believe 1445 is the latest Bandera is willing to place it, based on the premise that it was made to Filippo Maria's specifications, if not for him, and he was going blind by late 1445).
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Re: "The 5x14 Theory: An Investigation" part II

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mmfilesi wrote:Well... continued ^^

Summary of last post


Remote Background: chess as an allegory.

Case for example: Cessolis
Case for example: Lex Exchecs

Deck and chess

Ingold: 8 wins, probable structure of chess
Michelino: 16 wins, probable structure of chess.
>>Pos a: 1 army
>>Pos b: two armies with possible influence of geomantic structure
Possibly there are other chess allegories in 14th century, though some of them might be for the moment still not discussed or generally not discovered.

1. Trionfi by Petrarca, also Chaucer's first work

The Trionfi card series developed since 1440 and they were called "Trionfi" - as a poem of maybe 70 years before. An accompanying feature it is, that the typical Trionfi poem motifs develop parallel to the Trionfi cards (also since 1440), probably related to an increased admiration for this poem. Trionfi poem motifs entered the iconography of the Trionfi cards - that's obviously. Trionfi cards - as the analyzes give reasons to assume - were influenced by chess.
Taking it all together, the question is simply given, if Petrarca already intended to present a chess allegory with his pooem, or if the poem had been later identified or interpretad as a chess allegory.

Love - first figure of Petrarca ... appears in the chess as a Queen, which appears in this form not in the imported chess variants from Asia. European chess interpretation in 14th/15th century is strongly influenced by Love and marriage interpretation, one example is "eschecs amoureux", but also the Cessoli text was incorporated in collection, whose major theme was "good behavior during marriage".
Chastity ... is regarded as "accompanied by the virtues". In the Cary-Yale Interpretation the pawns are filled with virtues, more or less also in the Charles VI.
Death ... appears as a motif in the Tarot cards. In the Tarot iconography chess appears usually on a horse ... as a knight. In one example (PMB) it appears with bow and arrows - The archer was connected to the bishop figure in some regions.
Fama ... appears as a motif in the Tarot card sequence (Cary-Yale, Charles VI). Cause its trumpet it seems to be connected to the older figure of the Alfil (elephant), generally it seems, that in the chess Tarot interpretation the trumpet was associated to the Tower (rook), likely cause the trumpet was used by trumpeter on towers.
Time ... appears as a motif in the Tarot card sequence as the hermit or Father Time. He seems to play the role of the adviser (= bishop), which appears in the Cessolis tradition.
Eternity ... appears to some degree in the later interpretation of the card "world". But, on the level of 14th century chess reflection, it would refer to the Chess King, in the later Trionfi card reflection to the Emperor.

So it works ... a handicap of this idea is the circumstance, that Petrarca seems to have been astonishingly silent about chess. In Petrarca's text Fortune and the 4 passions (written ca. 1360, in a time, when he already worked on the Trionfi poem) Petrarca talks about games, but astonishingly either with intention or accidental doesn't mention chess (or, other possibility, I haven't found the passage about it).
If Petrarca didn't talk in his life full of many writings about chess, it's indeed curious - Chess is called a major topic in 14th century lterature and Petrarca simply left it out?
Trionfi was his latest work and he died about it, the text a little bit unfinished. If we consider this circumstance, then it might be, that he intended to declare it as a work about the "great chess of life" - somehow perhaps in contrast to the usual game of chess .... title, introductions and final words, which influence the whole view of an article or a literary work, are usually written in the finishing part. But Petrarca didn't finish, so this possibly was missing.

Interesting is the aspect, that Chaucer started his first work with a chess allegory. In this early period as an active writer - it's not proven with 100% security - Chaucer possibly visited Milan/Pavia for a marriage between an English prince and a Viscoti daughter (1468) and at this opportunity he possibly talked with Petrarca.

2. Neuf preux / neuf preuse (nine worthies)

A second object of greater interest for hidden chess allegories are the 9 heroes, which appeared to our knowledge first in a poem 1312, made probably for the new Emperor Henry VII of Luxemburg (reigned 1308 - 1313), father of John the blind, king of Bohemia, and grand-father of Charles IV, long and successful emperor from 1346 - 1378 ... in other words the playing card emperor. The poem was moved to greater fame in 1340's by Baldouin of Luxemburg, who did a lot to promote Charles IV as new emperor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_VII, ... an_Emperor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_I,_Count_of_Luxemburg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldwin_of_Luxembourg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine_Worthies

The early spreading of the neuf preux prove their existence in regions dominated or influenced by Charles IV. Cologne, Flemish region with Luxembourg, Northern France. As a theme it was adapted by the French king Charles VI and his brother Louis of Orleans, husband to Valentina Visconti. The first appearance in art are figures in the Cologne City Council together with Charles IV.

In structure this was a 3x3 system with 9 figures, somehow reflecting the Nine-Men-Morris game with 3 Pagan, 3 Jewish and 3 Christian kings. A specific detail, the 9th king is Gottfried of Bouillon, King of Jerusalem, gives reason to assume, that the major aim of the system is to show that 8 old famous kings (or emperors) honor the ninth, the most contemporary.

3. Pagan: Alexander - Caesar

* o Hector
o Alexander the Great
o Julius Caesar

* Jewish:
o Joshua
o David
o Judas Maccabeus

* Christian:
o King Arthur
o Charlemagne
o Godfrey of Bouillon

So, understanding this idea, one might suspect, that 8 Kings were used for the chess board and that the 9th was the player.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godfrey_of_Bouillon
"Godfrey of Bouillon was born around 1060 in either Boulogne-sur-Mer in France or Baisy, a city in the region of Brabant (part of present-day Belgium). During Godfrey's lifetime this region was part of the Holy Roman Empire. Godfrey was the second son of Count Eustace II of Boulogne and Ida of Lorraine."

Jacques de Longuyon (the poet) presented the neuf preux in his poem "Voeux du Paon". Longuyon is a location near the Southern border of Luxembourg. The commissioner had been Thibaut de Bar, bishop of Liège ... that's near Luxembourg. The promoting person was Baldouin of Luxembourg and the person, which most profited from it, had been Charles IV. (of Luxembourg naturally). And Godfrey of Bouillon was born and determined also from the region "near Luxembourg". So the whole had been a "local cult", which by clever promotion and lucky political and economical constellations received international acceptance. Burgundy was ascending in its importance in this time.

The neuf preux found in a later development to neuf preuse, 9 female heroes in more variating constellations. Also the 9 heroes could be changed, partly or totally, for instance in this version:

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... in 9 pictures with 3 poets, 3 women, 3 local Florentine heroes by Castagno ca. 1450 (Cycle of Famous Men and Women, Detached fresco. Galleria degli Uffizi, Florence, Italy).

Also it was possibly to add a 10th and so we find it in Boiardo Tarocchi poem (with 10 preuse) and similar in 10 pairs of heroes in the Sola Busca Tarocchi.
Another card influence appeared in the fixation of some of the 9 heroes in the French court card definitions (which also had its changes):

kings: ALEXANDRE CHARLES DAVID CESAR
queens: ARGINE JUDITH PALLAS RACHEL
jacks: LANCELOT LA HIRE HOGIER HECTOR

... which by the appearance of La Hire and Hogier should have descended from the time of the French king Charles VII.

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So ... a general influence of the neuf preux at the playing card development is general natural.

3. Geomanty ... as already discussed, but there might be others.

mmfilesi wrote:Well, as nobody says anything, I continued ^^. It is the turn of the Yaly Cary deck's.

In the hypotesis of Trionfi.com, really interesting, says its possible relationship with chess. The basis of this hypothesis is that the deck originally had 16 triunfos.

We think that the deck had:

a) 14 triumphs
b) 16 triumphs
c) X triumphs

Reasons for 16:

a) The favorite number of Filippo its 16 Filippo (for his geomantic beliefs and because it was his lucky day).
b) Michelino deck have 16.
c) In this way, Trionfi.com thesis of 40-24-16 its correct. (And for probability, I think its correct).

Did I leave any?

Reasons for 14 :
I dont know.

we are all acording with 16? :)
The general card game structure (as far it is known) has a preference, for 4x13, but also appearances 4x11, 4x12, 4x14 and 4x15 are known, and also y interpretation of Trionfi.com a ...x16 - structure. 5 suits appear occasionally (also other number of suits) and they get also more attention by Trionfi.com's focus on 5x14.

The reason for "14" should be mainly, that 4x14 had been an early traditional scheme.

The Charles V'I Tarot is also identified as Chess Tarot and precisely 16 special cards are still existent ... probably complete.

Generally it must be assumed, that if one could double or multiply the "real findings" of playing cards to a higher number, that more "game variants" would appear.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: "The 5x14 Theory: An Investigation" part II

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No, I think it was 24 + Fool. All of the standard subjects, with the three Theological Virtues added.
Reasons - the suits are extended, so it is logical the trumps would be too.
Excellent argument. Thank Ross :) :) :) . But, one cuestion, please. In this case,

CY that have been preserved:

11 triumphs
17 figures
39 pip cards

As your hypotesis, in orginal:

25 triumphs
24 figures
40 pip cards

Thats mind its lost:

14 triumphs
7 figures
1 pip card

Is not strange are the triumphs, the most valuable cards, which have lost more in proportion?

**********

Another problem.

Its possible that Filippo Maria, the man most superstitious in the world, give a deck with the tower, the Devil and hanging to his daughter as a wedding gift?

If you look, all triumphs are "positive":

Emperador = positive
Empress = positive
Chariot = positive
Love = positive
Hope, Charity, fortress, faith = positive
Judge = positive
Fame = positive

and Dead is too positive, because its another religious message (vanitas, vanitatis and those issues of the macabre dances). Not is the Dead with bow, thats mind, the black plague, but the Dead we all die, the only important thing is God.

or :) ?
When a man has a theory // Can’t keep his mind on nothing else (By Ross)

Re: "The 5x14 Theory: An Investigation" part II

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Huck, say many issues. :) :) :)

I need to go slowly.

First cuestion: Petrarca and chess

a) The experts say that Petrarca's trionfi were almost finished. Especially its structure. Among other reasons, they say, is too perfect (based on 12 as the 12 songs of the Aeneid).

b) Petrarch doesn't mention chess in his "Cancionero" (in English Songbook?). I think that simply was not interested. It was a game of "French" and other modern, not ancient Romans. Petrarca only interested in ancient Rome (and a little Greece). Thats mind, Petrarca loans takes a few Roman de la Rose, as the "locus amoenus", an another modern boks, but he is interested in Roman literature, not of these "barbarians" French. And the Romans didn't talk about chess.
When a man has a theory // Can’t keep his mind on nothing else (By Ross)

Re: "The 5x14 Theory: An Investigation" part II

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mmfilesi wrote:Huck, say many issues. :) :) :)

I need to go slowly.

First cuestion: Petrarca and chess

a) The experts say that Petrarca's trionfi were almost finished. Especially its structure. Among other reasons, they say, is too perfect (based on 12 as the 12 songs of the Aeneid).
I thought of 6. In which aspect it contains a structure related to 12?
b) Petrarch doesn't mention chess in his "Cancionero" (in English Songbook?). I think that simply was not interested. It was a game of "French" and other modern, not ancient Romans. Petrarca only interested in ancient Rome (and a little Greece). Thats mind, Petrarca loans takes a few Roman de la Rose, as the "locus amoenus", an another modern boks, but he is interested in Roman literature, not of these "barbarians" French. And the Romans didn't talk about chess.
Petrarca lived a longer time near Aragon, visited France and the French king, when arranging one of the Visconti marriages, and had contact and visits with and to the German emperor. He couldn't overlook chess.
Petrarca went to Italy, Milan ... after the plague. The probably simple reason had been, that Milan was one of few regions, which could avoid the plague. Anyway ... the Italian situation around ca. 1355 were also rather barbarious (the climax of rather uncontrolled condottieri business). The pope had left Italy, so a lot of money simply didn't go to Italy for a longer time. After France suffered considerably by plague and war, Italy became attractive for the pope again and the pope started to clear the Italian situation, finally the papacy moved back to Rome - running in a longer schism then.
The prospering regions in this time were the German Empire (Bohemia had no plague), Milan (no plague) and Burgundy (cause some weakness of France).
Sure - Petrarca had an interest in old Roman literature, and in a better Italy.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

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a)

Triumphus Cupidinis: 4 chapters
Triumphus Pudicitie: 1
Triumphus Mortis: 2
Triumphus Fame: 3
Triumphus Temporis: 1
Triumphus Eternitas: 1

12 chapters, also the 12 bocks of Aeneid.

b)
He couldn't overlook chess.
I live in Madrid, Spain, this world, and never can you see me writing about footbal. I'm bored. I just like the World Cup, but because they play all countries (go, go, go Senegal). I'm a writer, never waste time writing about football.
When a man has a theory // Can’t keep his mind on nothing else (By Ross)

Re: "The 5x14 Theory: An Investigation" part II

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mmfilesi wrote:
No, I think it was 24 + Fool. All of the standard subjects, with the three Theological Virtues added.
Reasons - the suits are extended, so it is logical the trumps would be too.
Excellent argument. Thank Ross :) :) :) . But, one cuestion, please. In this case,

CY that have been preserved:

11 triumphs
17 figures
39 pip cards

As your hypotesis, in orginal:

25 triumphs
24 figures
40 pip cards

Thats mind its lost:

14 triumphs
7 figures
1 pip card

Is not strange are the triumphs, the most valuable cards, which have lost more in proportion?
Not at all. For instance, the third Visconti deck, the Brambilla (in the Brera museum) only has 2 trumps remaining - Wheel and Emperor.

2 triumphs
7 figures
39 pips (all but the 4 of Denari)

Unless you believe that there were only 3 or 4 triumphs to begin with, then the proportion of triumphs lost is much greater than for the other two sets.

I would think that the loss of triumphs and figure cards would be more because they do have pictures of things and people, and triumphs in particular are attractive because they have allegorical subjects. So they would be the most likely to be borrowed or stolen.

We have to accept that accidents, especially with such a small data set, will sometimes seem outside of statistical probability until the whole data set is taken into account. In this case, some packs save mostly trumps and almost no pips (Charles VI), some all pips and almost no trumps (Brambilla, Rothschild), and some in-between - Cary Yale, Catania.

**********

Another problem.

Its possible that Filippo Maria, the man most superstitious in the world, give a deck with the tower, the Devil and hanging to his daughter as a wedding gift?
It's not a problem. There is no evidence that it was a wedding gift for Bianca Maria. None whatsoever. Huck knows this. There is also no record of any pack of carte da trionfi being commissioned as a wedding gift nor given as one at an actual wedding. This is a powerful myth, perhaps started by Cicognara, when he suggested that the Cary Yale was made for the marriage of Filippo Maria and Maria di Savoia in 1428.

The cards could have been painted at any time before 1447, most likely, whether for Bianca Maria or another Visconti family member. There's no reason at all that they have to be for a wedding.

Don't take it as a fact that it was for the wedding of October 1441, nor for a wedding at all.
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