That the trumps and rest of the deck do not share a common historical origin is, I would have thought, agreed upon by the statement that trumps were added to a Mamluk-type deck.Marcei wrote:I would prefer, “Tarot, defined as a combination of two decks, one having images to be used as trumps and the other a set of playing cards in 4 suits, was invented for game playing in the 15th century.”#1. Tarot was invented in the 15th century for game-playing.
I think it is important to define tarot here, because if we ever agree that trumps and pips don't share a common historical origin, (and we probably won't since that statement was removed all together) it would no longer make sense to refer to the image cards as trumps. Perhaps they alone were once known as tarot, and the Italian game invented with their inclusion was Tarocchi?Agreed with the exception that the word “new” be changed to ”separate” because we really do not know if the sequence of cards that became the trumps existed prior to the time of its addition to the playing cards. In other words I agree with the old #11.#2. Tarot's invention arose by adding a new set of cards (the Trumps) to a previously existing type of playing cards deck derived from the 13th century Mamluk deck, consisting of pips and figures divided in four different suits
(#3?)Old #11The trumps and the pips don’t share a common historical origin.
What we CAN'T say is that tarot is a combination of two DECKS, for that presumes that the trumps form(ed) a separate deck on their own, rather than being added (irrespective as to whether they were added as an existing prior set (for which there is no evidence) of added due to gaming considerations and without a prior set of images existing. Still, I personally see no problems with removing the word 'new' - replacing it with 'separate', however, seems to be far more than is warranted by existing evidence. So, how about (taking the point about 'new') changing 2 to something like:
2. Tarot's invention arose by adding cards (the trumps) to a previously existing deck of playing cards that was itself derived from the 13th century Mamluk deck, consisting of pips and figures divided in four different suits;
Personally, I would NOT go so far as to claim that 'they can be seen to support a Roman Catholic narrative'. A narrative implies a meaningful whole which is something I doubt was case (though I personally consider that it later developed to a coherent whole). However, motifs used by the Roman Catholic church were common enough on religious houses (churches, cathedrals, monasteries, etc) as stories (and writings), paintings and petroglyphs, and THOSE are what, I would suggest, informed some of the imagery. Also using the word 'conforming' rather than 'informing' seems to me far stronger, with the necessary qualification of 'possibly, 'appear', etc needed if 'conforming' is used. On the other hand, 'informing' implies no more than the imagery that was ever-so prevalent would inevitably have played a role in informing other imagery of the period.Marcei wrote:#3. The set of trumps originally reflected imagery that was common and meaningful that was: a. informed by orthodox religious motifs of the Roman Catholic church; and b. influenced by Trionfi traditions
I propose several separate statements as follows: (#4?) JMD's simple statement,(#5?): The trump images appear to conform, in general, to Roman Catholic motifs, and they can be seen to support a Roman Catholic narrative. (Note the word “appear” and the phrase “can be seen to.” (#6?) The imagery and sequence may have been influenced by both Trionfi traditions and by the Catholic religion.The set of trumps originally reflected imagery that was common and meaningful.
With regards to the influence of Trionfi traditions, you're bringing the point in a more focussed way that suggests something more than how I had it: that there is (I presume from earliest times) a sequence and that THIS (as sequence) is informed by trionfi considerations. In that case, I agree that my combined suggestion would perhaps best be separated out or added to into a couple of statements: one about the imagery and the influences thereon (ie, leave as is point 3); the other about comments about the sequence of the trumps (which is also something that Ross had suggested very early on, but in a different way).
So, to take that to something like the following, inserted between current points 3 & 4:
3i The trump sequences that may have been influenced by Trionfi traditions and the Catholic church
The problem with this is that it suggests that such may have. Allow me to perhaps explain why I disagree with your suggestion, taking as a basis the point's opening words:Marcei wrote:I would amend this to read (#7?): “It is not known whether the original set of trumps was intended to reflect alchemical, kabbalistic, numerological, geomantic, astrological, esoteric or heretical information either individually or in a sequentially narrative form.#5 The original set of trumps did not reflect a sequence of esoteric, alchemical, kabbalistic, numerological, geomantic, astrological, heretical nor magical narrative
'The original set of trumps did not reflect a sequence [...]'. There now is a wealth of historical work that has been done on the history of astrology, Kabbalah and Alchemy (to take three of those initially). NONE of those three areas have sequences that reflect what is found in the sequence of trump imagery, even when those are variously ordered. This does not mean that later decks were not modified in order for one or another of those to more-or-less be reflected therein, for there is, of course, evidence that this has occured (especially over the past 150 years). Of the thousands of manuscripts in Alchemy, which displays sequences as important in the process; of thousands of manuscripts on astrology (and astronomy), in which sequences or coherent 'sets' are also important (spatially arranged, as opposed to temporally arranged for alchemy); and of the numerous (thousands also?) of Kallalistic tracts (many of which, admittedly, remain in the province of a few Rabbis), NONE even approximate trump 'sequence', but on the contrary each displays their own inherent sequence peculiar to their area (astrology, alchemy, etc.), and that those are generally consistent within each discipline!
The various writings and other illustrations of numerological, heretical, magical and other 'esoteric' documents that are extent and have been studied similarly displays consistency within its discipline, and that those do not mirror nor approximate tarot sequences.
The conclusion is therefore that what IS known of sequences in astrology, alchemy, Kabbalah, etc, does not reflect sequences in tarot.
You're bringing here an important additional point that has not as yet been mentioned!Marcei wrote:(#8?)There is no evidence that the tarot was originally intended to be used for divination. It is likely, however, that its suitability for this purpose was recognized and that it was used in this way very early on. The earliest currently documented use for divination is ___________.
May I suggest something a little stronger?
________________________________________7 Tarot is a suitable medium for purposes of divination and character readings and was used as such from the 15th century
If agreed, this would bring the list to something like:
- Tarot was invented in what is now Northern Italy in the 15th century for game-playing.
- Tarot's invention arose by adding cards (the trumps) to a previously existing deck of playing cards that was itself derived from the 13th century Mamluk deck, consisting of pips and figures divided in four different suits
- The set of trumps originally reflected imagery that was common and meaningful that was:
- informed by orthodox religious motifs of the Roman Catholic church; and
- influenced by Trionfi traditions
- The trump sequences that may have been influenced by Trionfi traditions and the Catholic church
- Three families of orders arose by the 16th [? 17th?] century for the trump series, referred to as the A ('southern' - Bologna & Florence), B ('eastern' - Ferrara & Venice), and C ('northern' - Milan, also commonly named 'Marseille') patterns
- The original set of trumps did not reflect a sequence of esoteric, alchemical, kabbalistic, numerological, geomantic, astrological, heretical nor magical narrative
- A "standard tarot deck" has come to include 22 trumps (sometimes delineated as 1 Fool and 21 other trumps), with four other suits which include a total of 16 court cards and 40 pips, for a total equalling 78 cards.
- Tarot is a suitable medium for purposes of divination and character readings and was used as such from the 15th century