Hi, Tirjasdyn!

Tirjasdyn wrote: 22 Aug 2022, 22:13 Mostly I was trying to parse if crackpot meant any modern woman writer, but I'm glad that's not case.

Very much not. Among relative newcomers to the published Tarot community, Isabelle Nadolny in Histoire du Tarot - Origines - Iconographie - Symbolisme (2018, revised edition 2022), and Laetitia Barbier in Tarot and Divination Cards, A Visual Archive (2021), present the factual history clearly. They are both card-readers and storytellers, but don't need to believe in the "mists of time, nobody knows!" mystique to use the cards. Veterans like Mary Greer also ditched any baseless myth-making long ago, while at the same time finding utility in it, for the imagination. This is my approach, too. It reflects a profound need, and that is worth understanding.

The primary issue has been divination: in debunking the esoteric origin theories of Tarot, Dummett also tried to attach cartomancy to his polemic, as derivative of occult theories, and thus equally modern and baseless. But Dummett was wrong in Game of Tarot with his theory of how and when cartomancy began (and his theory of divination in general, completely ad hoc and off-base). Cartomancy is co-extant with cards, even if it doesn't resemble post-Etteilla forms. Once divination is understood to be separate from esotericism, which really did only begin with Gébelin's Egyptian theory, the cartomancers don't need to believe that ancient origins or Kabbalistic correspondences are encoded in the cards in order to use them for divination.

But I'm only speaking of those who engage with the historiography; most diviners don't care, don't know who Dummett was, and believe whatever they want.

I am interested in history, and despite a few eyebrow-raising members, I've been pleasantly surprised with what I've found here.

Great! Yeah, we don't get into sociological polemics or trolling here. It's pretty dry, there's nobody to troll. Even if people try from time to time, it just fizzles out.

Tirjasdyn wrote: 22 Aug 2022, 22:13 Hello Ross,

I thinking usually signed off with my name, Michelle. Though may have started back then with Tirjasdyn/Jasdyn.

Well, I think Ross and I both know this person since we were both canceled by her (or them) long ago. In fact, if this Jasdyn is THE Jasdyn I elevated to fame or infamy in my Cartofeminism article years ago, it is only fair to provide a relevant quotation from that document:

"[M]y favorite example of the extreme stupidity of Tarot moderators happened a number of years ago on TarotL, when a creature going by the name of Jasdyn ordered a halt to a discussion about Aleister Crowley's Thoth Tarot, because the word "sex" had been uttered in relation to the symbols on the Six of Cups. The mod was also upset that Ross Caldwell posted a link to what Jasdyn believed was "pornography", i.e., Crowley's poem Leah Sublime. The moderator, ignoring the fact an actual Tarot discussion was taking place, claimed she could not see any reason why a discussion, involving Crowley's attitudes and writings about sex, was "on topic" on a Tarot list. Imbecility of this nature is a common, and an utterly debilitating feature, of modern Tarot forums."

Now, the funny thing is, I suspect Ross believed it was perfectly reasonable for that forum to be moderated in that fashion. At that moment, as the forum had fallen further and further into despair, perhaps that was so. I mean, the despairing need their safe space so it is alleged. But that wasn't how Tarot-L (the mailing list) started. In fact I was invited to join that list when it was formed by the people managing it. They knew what they were asking, that things not be so god-awfully dull. But I turned them down at the time. And I only ever went on there when, after Mary K. Greer decided to turn the place into Greer-L, people begged me to counter the outrageously dubious ideologies being advanced there by whatever clique or club was trying to become dominant.

It was just a game. Tarot is a game. Did we not already settle that?

Happy Friday.

g

Ross Caldwell wrote: 23 Aug 2022, 10:31 Veterans like Mary Greer also ditched any baseless myth-making long ago

Where is the ditch? It should bear a proper monument.

Ross Caldwell wrote: 23 Aug 2022, 10:31 Once divination is understood to be separate from esotericism, which really did only begin with Gébelin's Egyptian theory, the cartomancers don't need to believe that ancient origins or Kabbalistic correspondences are encoded in the cards in order to use them for divination.

Yeah, I think we made that point back in 1995 or so. Although, it was really part of a general critique/explanation of why it is probably better to know more than less, so long as you understand the utility of the parts and pieces. So, if the goal in cartomancy is to read the cards, and if you are (most likely) reading a Tarot pack based on the symbolic assumptions that include Qabbalistic key theories, the question then is whether knowing those theories can advance your skills as a reader. Once you have accepted as true or decided to mime as if it is possible to accurately tell fortunes with playing cards, you have put anxieties about crack-pottery in the trash bin anyway. But the same is true if, like Dummett, you are still clutching hopes about Jesus saving your soul and the like.

So, life is short. Let us do as we will. And maybe stumble into doing what thou wilt.

g

Ross Caldwell wrote: 20 Aug 2022, 08:53

Tirjasdyn wrote: 19 Aug 2022, 22:22

Phaeded wrote: I've always understood why this Researcher's Study existed - so we didn't have to deal with the crackpots

What is your definition of a non-crackpot? Waite? Mathers? Etteilla? Gébelin? Or are we only sitting at the Visconti-Sforza and calling it a day?

Honestly, I didn't know about this forum until today. So I guess now I'm here .

My definition of a non-crackpot is someone who accepts that Tarot was invented as a card game shortly before 1440 in a city in Italy, probably Florence, that it did not encode any secrets or riddles, and that the association of the game with esoteric thinking of any kind began only in the mid-to-late 18th century. Divination is a different issue.
...

We don't sit on the Visconti-Sforza and call it a day at all! Visconti di Modrone (aka Cary-Yale), Brambilla, and Viscont-Sforza (aka Pierpont-Morgan Bergamo) are among the earliest surviving Tarots, but there are others of the same age which have been recognized now (the last 15 years) as Florentine productions. My own focus has long been on a "proto-Tarot," designed by Marziano Rampini di Sant'Alosio for Filippo Maria Visconti. ...

And let's throw in our spirited discussions around Imperatori as well. Eventually I'll get back to adding something to that, but busy elsewhere at the moment.

My own narrow definition of crackpot tends to be the litmus test of whether one thought the 22 trumps of the ur-tarot (c. 1440, in general agreement with Ross) were derived from the Hebrew alphabet; the latter is an interpretation clearly tacked on after the fact, due to the influence of Mirandola, Reuchlin, etc., elevated "Christian Kabbalah". Given the cowinky-dink of 22 trumps/letters (actually 21+1 in the case of trumps), said mapping was all but inevitable, but doesn't make any theories regarding the ur-tarot true...just that the false interpretation was inevitable. None of this has a jot to do with one's gender.

Phaeded

Phaeded wrote: 30 Aug 2022, 22:57 My own narrow definition of crackpot tends to be the litmus test of whether one thought the 22 trumps of the ur-tarot (c. 1440, in general agreement with Ross) were derived from the Hebrew alphabet; the latter is an interpretation clearly tacked on after the fact, due to the influence of Mirandola, Reuchlin, etc., elevated "Christian Kabbalah". Given the cowinky-dink of 22 trumps/letters (actually 21+1 in the case of trumps), said mapping was all but inevitable, but doesn't make any theories regarding the ur-tarot true...just that the false interpretation was inevitable. None of this has a jot to do with one's gender.

Ah, yes, the Hebrew alphabet. I include that in the catch-all "encoded secrets or riddles" crackpottery.

Note that nobody needed Christian Cabala to learn the Hebrew alphabet. The whole alphabet is listed 12 times in the Vulgate:

The Psalms here are numbered according to the Vulgate and Septuagint - Hebrew and English Bibles use the number in
(parenthesis).

1) Psalm 36 (37)
2) Psalm 110 (111) - 10 verses/22
3) Psalm 111 (112) - 10 verses/22
4) Psalm 118 (119) - 176 verses/8
5) Psalm 144 (145) - this one is missing the NUN, so only 21 verses
6) Proverbs 31 - verses 10-31 are an acrostic
7) Lamentations 1
8) Lamentations 2 - Fe and Ain transposed
9,10,11) Lamentations 3 - 66 verses, each verse three lines
beginning with a letter, and this is spelled out each time in the
Vulgate; Fe and Ain transposed again
12) Lamentations 4 - Fe and Ain transposed
Scholars also point out that Lamentations 5 has 22 verses.

The latin spelling is:
Aleph
Beth
Gimel
Deleth
He
Vav
Zai
Heth
Teth
Ioth
Caph
Lameth
Mem
Nun
Samech
Ain
Fe (or twice "Phe")
Sade
Coph
Res
Sen
Thav

And Saint Jerome (author of the Vulgate translation), always one of the most popular writers, wrote extensively on the Hebrew Alphabet, for instance in a letter to Paula regarding Psalm 118 (119) -
https://epistolae.ctl.columbia.edu/letter/278.html

I don't think that noting some coincidence between the 22 letters of the Hebrew alphabet and 22 trumps was inevitable. For instance, the Anonymous discorso author calls the trumps "XXII hieroglyphic figures/images," but does not mention the coincidence with the Hebrew alphabet. And Christian Cabala was in full swing by then.

Phaeded wrote: 30 Aug 2022, 22:57
My own narrow definition of crackpot tends to be the litmus test of whether one thought the 22 trumps of the ur-tarot (c. 1440, in general agreement with Ross) were derived from the Hebrew alphabet

Well, I think that might be harsh to the point of being obstructive to your research. One thing I learned writing my book was that if understanding (people's motives and ideas) was a goal, then trying to get on their side of the table was usually better that calling them names on the basis of a litmus test. In fairness, I had plenty of such tests too, for example I allowed Aleister Crowley, whose style I admired when I was younger, to negatively influence my thinking about A. E. Waite. This happens with many Thelemites and AC fans and not a small number of Tarot history nerds. And it is after all a lot easier than trying to read and understand A. E. Waite, who no doubt is still laughing from his grave at all the poor illiterates trying to suss out anything from his impenetrable prose.

Phaeded wrote: 30 Aug 2022, 22:57
; the latter is an interpretation clearly tacked on after the fact, due to the influence of Mirandola, Reuchlin, etc., elevated "Christian Kabbalah". Given the cowinky-dink of 22 trumps/letters (actually 21+1 in the case of trumps), said mapping was all but inevitable, but doesn't make any theories regarding the ur-tarot true...just that the false interpretation was inevitable.

Phaeded

Think again about what we know about the elite players and makers (I mean the Italian nobility competing to be most inventive with the next new pack). We know they liked to riff off existing symbolic systems. We know they liked to pay at least lip service to religious themes. We know they combined these quite often in elaborate carnivalesque parades. We know images from those parades ended up on Tarot cards.

Something else we know, though it may not seem directly relatedly at first: there are 22 chapters in the Book of Revelation. But that is probably just a coincidence. Because those people or that person who wrote Revelation knew nothing about Hebrew and gematria and the like. Right?

Well, there is this:

Revelation 13:18 "Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."

Generally, the "wisdom" has been understood to be gematria, a basic tool in Hebrew studies and in Kabbalah/Qabbalah. And of course Revelation is heavily dependent on number symbolism. And also the imagery associated with or helping to illustrate that symbolism.

Here is an example of the imagery:

Revelation 21:2 "And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."

Yes, I have heard of that New Jerusalem place. I think it might have something to do with one of the ur-Tarot trumps. Is that possible? And what is the number of that trump, by the way?

And now that you have been checked through security at the Crackpot Airport, by all means take off. Your flights of fancy await.

Now, is that the same thing as saying the Hebrew alphabet informed the construction of the ur-Tarots?

Perhaps not in every case or in a systematic way. But nor is it true that one can reliably say the Hebrew alphabet had nothing whatsoever to do with the construction of the ur-Tarots.

It is helpful to recall just how integrated religious symbolism was into the daily living of life back in the 15th century.

We are pagans by comparison, and some of us really are pagans.

I don't know how many of us are really historians. That is a hard thing to be, piously anyway.

Good post, Glenn.

I did some "crackpot" research a while back on how the sacredness of the number 22, because of the number of Hebrew letters, would have been part of the consciousness of educated 15th century Christians. And even more then - especially the second half of the century - than before, because of the influx of new (to the West) numerological texts in Greek by the Church Fathers, notably Origen, in a passage that seems to have influenced several others.

See my post at
viewtopic.php?p=23958#p23958

This is not to say that the cards were each given a letter by then. It is just about the special sacredness of the number 22, by way of the 22 letters of God's speech, for communicating God's word.

glennfwright wrote: 03 Sep 2022, 16:09

Phaeded wrote: 30 Aug 2022, 22:57
My own narrow definition of crackpot tends to be the litmus test of whether one thought the 22 trumps of the ur-tarot (c. 1440, in general agreement with Ross) were derived from the Hebrew alphabet

Well, I think that might be harsh to the point of being obstructive to your research. One thing I learned writing my book was that if understanding (people's motives and ideas) was a goal, then trying to get on their side of the table was usually better that calling them names on the basis of a litmus test.

I'm of course trying to get into the heads of those in the mid-15th century; but my contemporaries' heads? I'll pass. Unless they are engaged in the same goal of historical enquiry and not mapping later occult theories onto earlier history.

To go over old ground:
* There is zero factual evidence for 22 trumps before the PMB appears, making the 22 Hebrew letters beyond spurious for the ur-tarot. And when the PMB appears, again, why would one of the trumps be Ecclesia (a variant of the theological virtue of Faith), which was usually paired with a pejorative representation of Synagogue be used if Hebrew anything was at the heart of the matter? Or Christian Judgment, etc. The Hebrew alphabet theory for the hand-painted 15th century decks is ludicrous.
* There is evidence in Ferrara of 70 card decks after the PMB, which suggests an earlier 14 card trump series continued to survive after the novelty of the 22 trump version....in a city that already painted 14 "images" for Bianca Visconti for New Years 1441, which of course I take to interpret as an early adaptation of the ur-tarot, just invented the year before in Florence. It was fashionable, new.
* Filippo Visconti follows the Ferrara example and has yet another version of the 14 trump ur-tarot made for Bianca's marriage to Sforza in November 1441. Clearly the seven virtues are present and the same seven exemplary themes we encounter in later tarot - only the theologicals eventually get replaced (beginning with the PMB).

Without going into the details, to reiterate my own view: Florence, in league with the resident Pope, celebrated their joint victory at Anghiari with a novel series of images based on the seven canonical virtues one finds everywhere in that city - certainly inoffensive for the Church - with the seven non-virtues corresponding to exemplary themes or antitypes, ultimately taken from Dante's Paradiso. I propose Chancellor Bruni, essentially the city's cultural director, behind that endeavor, having just published his life of Dante in 1436 (the city was in the midst of rehabilitation of Dante, after Filelfo had used Dante to attack the Medici in the early/mid-'30s). The commissioner of the earliest known tarot deck, Giusti, had close ties to Cosimo de Medici and Leonardi Bruni, both sitting members on the powerful Ten of War (dieci), who had just overseen the successful conclusion of the Anghiari campaign and annexed the former Malatesta possession of San Sepolcro to Florence. Malatesta getting a deck of the ur-tarot was part of an olive leaf to welcome him back into 'Holy League' fold. Giusti was the natural go-between, since he was handling the mercenary contracts for military units that served with both Florence and Malaesta (he in fact got permission from the dieci for those units to go to Malatesta after the Anghiari campaign).

I posit Filelfo, in turn, in one-upping his former academic compatriot Bruni in expanding the 14 trumps in c. 1451, the PMB, to celebrate his new condottiero benefactor Sforza, someone clearly inclined to use astrology as part of his tradecraft (to further refine this, Fiellfo was undoubtedly commissioned for this endeavor, hence his trip to Cremona where the Bembo studio was, but the specifics of the additional cards are due to him). An additional series of seven planetary themes - also taken from Dante's Paradiso - is added to the existing seven virtues (the theologicals replaced so as not to offend the new pope, an old friend of Fillefo whom he was petitioning for support on behalf of Sforza), and virtue-exemplary/antitype trumps. Thus 21 (3 x seven subseries) , plus a negation of the virtues - the Fool (in Filelfo's university town of Padua the Fool is opposed to Prudence, which in fact has become the "World"). There is a reason the Fool is "zero": There never really is a coherent set of 22 - the fool stands outside the series of 21 proper as a sexually wanton imbecile with goiters (at least on the PMB).

At all events, no Hebrew anything. No evidence. Period.

Phaeded

PS the most important humanist in Florence elevated Prudence to the highest virtue and why it became the "World", for which there was an iconographic precedent. See: Hankins J. "Teaching Civil Prudence in Leonardo Bruni’s History of the Florentine People." In: Ebbersmeyer S, Kessler E Ethik – Wissenschaft oder Lebenskunst? Modelle de Normenbegründung von der Antike bis zur Frühen Neuzeit. Berlin: Lit Verlag ; 2007: 143-157.

Glenn,

there is a lot book system, which appeared to our eyes in early 15th century. It had a sort of 22*22*22*22 structure. 22 animals, 22 countries etc ...

viewtopic.php?p=9888#p9888

The Pope with the donkey / "Oldest Tarot" ; theme lotbook (started 21 Feb 2011)

Start: http://forum.tarothistory.com/viewtopic ... 9888#p9888
1. Fränkisches Losbuch (1425-50)
online: http://www.bildindex.de/document/obj00022941#|home
2. Lot book version of c. 1520, in Landshut printed by Johann Weißenburger
online: http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db ... 06&seite=1
3a. Bollstatter lot book collection (Cgm 312) ... between them a text with big similarities to 1. and 2.
online: https://bildsuche.digitale-sammlungen.d ... &nav=&l=en
Description of Cgm 312:
... http://bilder.manuscripta-mediaevalia.d ... 95_JPG.htm
... http://bilder.manuscripta-mediaevalia.d ... 96_JPG.htm
This is the MAJOR TOPIC of the thread: The online edition wasn't known at the beginning of the thread. It's discussion starts at ... http://forum.tarothistory.com/viewtopic ... ter#p18365
Before the text was studied by Nr. 2 (version of 1520)
--
Other relatives to the 3 lot books above:
4. Trier version (Hs. 1121/1325)
Description: https://books.google.de/books?id=-itYVP ... &q&f=false
appeared in the discussion at ... http://forum.tarothistory.com/viewtopic ... rier#p9888
5. Splendor Solis ... a very distant relation
appeared in the discussion at ... http://forum.tarothistory.com/viewtopic ... ndor#p9908
6a. Heidelberger version with 32 animals instead of 22 (Cod. Pal. germ. 7)
online: http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit ... fc1c30dacc
appeared in the discussion at ... http://forum.tarothistory.com/viewtopic ... erg#p15544
6b. Olmützer Losbuch, very similar to the Heidelberger version with 32 animals
appeared in the discussion at http://forum.tarothistory.com/viewtopic ... =80#p19164
reported by Leopold Zatocil: the article of Leopold Zatocil is online (German language) as a pdf-file
One gets it, if one searches for keyword "SpisyFF_131-1968-1_3.pdf"

There is a second lot book system, which has 32 animals, and 22 from the 32 appear in the lot book system with 22*22*22*22. So it looks, as if the 22-system has developed from the 32-system. In the context of the Olmützer Losbuch appears the year number 1327, likely-possibly-perhaps an indication, that this object was produced in 1327.
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=663&p=19165&hilit=1327#p19165

The numbers 32 and 22 appear in the Sepher Yetzirah in important functions (22 letters, 32 ways of wisdom) . It looks very likely, that the author of the Olmützer Losbuch was in a vague way inspired-influenced by the Sepher Yetzirah traditions. Olmütz is a location in Bohemia, and Bohemia/Prague had grater part Jewish population.

Möglicherweise lebten Juden in Olmütz bereits im 10., sicherlich aber im 11. Jh. Aus dem Jahr 1140 datiert die erste Erwähnung eines ‚Judenquartiers’ in der Stadt. Anders als bei den meisten Judenvertreibungen jener Zeit, die in der Regel mit Mord und Totschlag verbunden waren, mußten die Olmützer Juden im Jahre 1454 zwar die Stadt verlassen, durften aber ihre beweglichen Habe mit sich nehmen. Erst in der ersten Hälfte des 19. Jh. wurde einzelnen Juden wieder der Zuzug in die Stadt erlaubt ....
automatic translation
Jews may have lived in Olomouc as early as the 10th, but certainly in the 11th century. The first mention of a 'Jewish quarters' in the city dates from 1140. In contrast to most of the expulsions of the Jews of that time, which as a rule involved murder and manslaughter, the Jews of Olomouc had to leave the city in 1454, but were allowed to take their chattels with them. Only in the first half of the 19th century were individual Jews allowed to move into the city again....

https://www.juedische-friedhoefe.info/f ... omouc.html

This is the 22 version:

1. Ob ains an Wirdigkeit mag komen (question)
If one gets honors (translation of question)
Prophet David (Prophet)
King Franckreich (France) (King)
Animal: Wag - Zodiac: Libra (Animal ... in this case a zodiac sign)
Further attributions: Mercury / North

2. Ob ains gedancken vollend mugen werden
If one's ideas reach their goal
Prophet Daniel
King Engelland (England)
Animal: Wider - Zodiac: Aries
Further attributions: Mercury / West

3. Ob es gut sey wider feynd kriegen
If it is good to fight against an enemy
Prophet Zacharias
King Schottenland (Scotland)
Animal: Ochs - Zodiac: Taurus
Further attributions: Jupiter / East

4. Von frawen haymlichkeit
About "Hamlichkeit" of the woman
Prophet Isaias
King Ungern (Hungary)
Animal: Krebs - Zodiac: Cancer
Further attributions: Jupiter / North

5. Von gottes huld und gnaden
About god's grace
Prophet Abacuck
King Marroch (Marocco)
Animal: Leb - Zodiac: Leo
Further attributions: Mercury / East

6. Von manne haymlickeit
About "Haymlichkeit" of the man
Prophet Jonas
King Cecilien (Sicilia ?)
Animal: Rab - Crow
Further attributions: Mercury / South

7. Von gtrewn Lewten
About loyal persons
Prophet Malachias
King Römischer König (Rome)
Animal Jungfraw - Zodiac: Virgo
Further attributions: Jupiter / South

8. Von vil frawen
About many women
Prophet Jeremias
King Morenland (land of the Moors)
Animal Fisch - Zodiac: Pisces
Further attributions: Venus / East

9. Von reichtum
about richness
Prophet Gedeon
King Armenien (Armenia)
Animal Wassertrager - Zodiac: Aquarius
Further attributions: Mars / North

10. Von langem leben
About long life
Prophet Nabuchodonnsor
King Schweden (Sweden)
Animal Zwyling - Zodiac: Gemini
Further attributions: Jupiter / West

11. Von deinem frewnde
About a male friend
Prophet Ismahelite
King Turcken (Turkey)
Animal Schutz - Zodiac: Sagitarius
Further attributions: Mars / South

12. Von deiner Frewndin
About a female friend
Prophet Theodosius
King Spangen (Spain)
Animal: Scorpion Zodiac: Scorpio
Further attributions: Mars / West

13. Ob es gut sej wallen
If it good to "wallen" (? to wander or to make a pilgrim's journey ?)
Prophet Putifar
King Indian (India)
Animal Einhorn - Zodiac: unicorn/capricorn
Further attributions: Mars / East

14. Ob es gut sey zu Ee greffen
If it good to marry
Prophet Olibrius
King Capodocia (central Turkey, Anatolia)
Animal: Kranch (crane)
Further attributions: Venus / North

15. Ob eins sein schuld vergelten mag
If something is paid back
Prophet Moyses
King Tartern (land of the Tartars ? Mongolia ?)
Animal: Arr (eagle)
Further attributions: Sun /NorthEast

16. Von weisheit und thorheit
About wisdom and stupidity
Prophet Isaac
King Lilio (?)
Animal: Nachtigall (nightingale)
Further attributions: Venus / South

17. Von herren lone
About salary of a master
Prophet Abraham
King Nobie (Nubia)
Animal: Kamelthyer (camel)
Further attributions: Venus / West

18. Von sorgen
About sorrows
Prophet Joseph
King Cypern (Cyprus)
Animal Syttich (parrot)
Further attributions: Moon / SouthEast

19. Ob eins verloren ding wider finde
If a lost object is found again
Prophet Samuel
King Arragon (Aragon)
Animal: Hyrs (stag)
Further attributions: Saturn / West

20. Von hoffnung
About hope
Prophet Israhel
King Babylonien (Babylon)
Animal: Hundt (dog)
Further attributions: Saturn / East

21. Ob ein gefangener erlöst mug werden
If a prisoner will be released
Prophet Nathan
King - Emperor
Animal: Has (Hare)
Further attributions: Saturn / North

22. Von der libe
About love
Prophet Jacob
King - Pope
Animal: Esel (donkey)
Further attributions: Saturn / South

shortened:
1 Libra ... zodiac
2 Aries ... "
3 Taurus ... "
4 Cancer ... "
5 Leo ... "
6 Corvus (crow) ... 13th zodiac sign or 5th bird (planet)
7 Virgo ... zodiac again
8 Pisces ... "
9 Aquarius ... "
10 Gemini ..."
11 Sagitarius ..."
12 Scorpio ... "
13 Capricorn ..."
14 Crane ... (? bird = planet)
15 Eagle ... (? bird = planet)
16 Nightingale ... (? bird = planet)
17 Camel ... (? star picture Draco ... center)
18 Parrot ... (? bird = planet)
19 Stag ... ? Moon (Diana = goddess of hunting)
20 Dog ... ? Sun
21 Hare ... Emperor
22 Donkey ... Pope

It looks similar to the Sepher Yetzirah content (zodiac, 7 planets ) ....
Generally early lot books appear in Germany in 14th/15th century more often than in Italy. Somehow they are presented as games ("Kurzweil"), not as serious divination. There are many variations, astrological content is relative common.

From the early Trionfi cards we have no clear evidence for the appearance of decks with 22 special cards. The oldest clear evidence seems to be the Tarocchi poem of Matteo Maria Boiardo. I personally see reasons to date this to January 1487, so relative near to the Kabbala activities of Giovanni Pico de Mirandola in December 1486, who is presented as the first Christian Kabbalist. Matteo Maria Boiardo was the 22 years older cousin of Pico. Matteo Maria Boiardo had also studies of Hebrew language and culture. The grandfather of both was Feltrino Boiardo, who had in his life experiences a journey to Jerusalem in the year 1413 together with Niccolo d'Este. Ferrara was considered to be a Jewish-friendly city during 15th/16th century.

Huck wrote: 05 Sep 2022, 01:13 From the early Trionfi cards we have no clear evidence for the appearance of decks with 22 special cards. The oldest clear evidence seems to be the Tarocchi poem of Matteo Maria Boiardo. I personally see reasons to date this to January 1487, so relative near to the Kabbala activities of Giovanni Pico de Mirandola in December 1486, who is presented as the first Christian Kabbalist.

^ excellent example of what I consider "crackpot."

This is so far out as an outlier position it doesn't merit addressing. No one would date the CY, which certainly forms the core of the 22 trumps, and PMB beyond the 1440s and 1450s, besides the various replacement card theories. And whence Giusti's reference to trionfi in 1440? All ignored.

As for Sortes, contrary to you categorizing them simply as a game they were taken seriously and the standard was 16 kings, not 22 (what is the provenance/date for the 22 king variant you posted about?).

The Latin term sortes is used in modern academia to refer to a textual genre which the Western European vernacular languages call “lot book” (German: “Losbuch”; Dutch: “lot boek”) or “book of sorts” (French: “livre de sorts”; Spanish: “libro de (las) suertes”; Italian: “libro delle sorti”); in English, this type of texts is also called “a book of fate” or “a book of fortune”. In medieval times, the terms sortes and sortilegium could be used in this narrow sense, but were also used to refer to all kinds of sortition and cleromancy. In fact, sortes texts are, in their general structure, comparable to other texts on sortileges, like Mantic Alphabets and geomantic tables but, although they share common features, the sortes form a separate genre and belong to a different tradition (Heiles 2018, 89–126; Lemaitre-Provost 2010, 49–56).There are two types of sortes texts: sortes without questions or “colecciones libres”, as Montero Cartelle (Montero Cartelle and Alsonso Guardo 2004, 20–31) calls them, and sortes with questions or “collectiones dirigidas” (Heiles 2018, 39–68; Luijendijk and Klingshirn 2019, 27). Both types provide a number of independent sayings and possess a special layout structure that makes it possible to read only one of these sayings selected through a random process. In its simplest form, a sortes without questions text is divided into 56 paragraphs and the reader is guided by a dice roll. The reader of the Sortes Sanctorum, a Latin sortes text written in late-antique Gaul and transmitted until the fifteenth century, for example, requires the reader to roll three dice and sort them by number. He then needs to look for a paragraph marked with his combination, e. g. 6–6–4. In this lucky case, he would be informed: “C.C.IIII. Deus te adiuvabit de quo cupis. Deum roga, cito perveniens ad quod desid-eras” (Sortes Sanctorum, eds. Montero Cartelle and Alsonso Guardo, 70) / 6–6–4 “God will help you regarding what you desire. Ask God, soon you will achieve what you wish.” While these texts make only unspecific declarations, the sortes with questions provide detailed answers to a given set of questions. The Prenostica Socratis Basilei, a twelfth-century Latin translation of Arabic sortes, for example, give a list of 16 questions. These sortes can tell the reader, inter alia, if it is a good idea to take a wife or not, if a captive will escape, if a pregnant woman will give birth to a boy or a girl, or if lost property will be recovered. Here, the reader must randomly select a number between two and ten (or between one and nine in older versions of the text), by creating a line of points without counting them, by turning a wheel, which will point to a number, or by throwing two dice (if the figure obtained exceeds number nine, this amount is subtracted). The result determines the answer. A table and set of diagrams lead the reader to his answer spoken by one of twelve kings. If the reader wishes to know, whether he should marry, and if his number is 10, the king of the Tatars would give him a clear answer: Caveas tibi ab uxore (Prenostica Socratis Basilei, eds. Montero Car-telle and Alonso Guardo, 234) – “Beware of the wife.” (Heiles, Marco. "Sortes". Prognostication in the Medieval World: A Handbook, edited by Matthias Heiduk, Klaus Herbers and Hans-Christian Lehner, Berlin, Boston: De Gruyter, 2020: 978-983, 978).

What is intriguing are the numbers noted above - 56 questions could be related to a 56 card deck. More intriguing, is the 16 questions in the Prenostica Socratis Basilei, a twelfth-century Latin translation of Arabic sortes and its potential relationship of that to Marziano's work.

What has not been adequately explored, certainly not by M. Azzolini whose work focuses on the Sforza (mainly the latter ones, The Duke and the Stars, 2013), is the cultural borrowing, especially astrological and related "sciences", between the Visconti and German royal houses. Bernabo Visconti's children intermarriage with Germans is somewhat staggering:
Taddea Visconti (1351 – 28 September 1381), married on 13 October 1364 Stephen III, Duke of Bavaria, by whom she had three children including Isabeau of Bavaria, Queen consort of King Charles VI of France
Verde Visconti (1352 – bef. 11 March 1414), married on 23 February 1365 Leopold III, Duke of Inner Austria, by whom she had six children.
Marco Visconti (November 1353 – 3 January 1382), Lord of Parma in 1364; married in 1367 Elisabeth of Bavaria, by whom he had one daughter.
Antonia Visconti (ca. 1354 – 26 March 1405), engaged in 1366 to King Frederick III of Sicily, but he died before the wedding took place; married 27 October 1380 Eberhard III, Count of Württemberg, by whom she had three sons.
Maddalena Visconti (ca. 1366 – 17 July 1404), married 9 April 1382 Frederick, Duke of Bavaria, by whom she had five children including Henry XVI of Bavaria.
Elisabetta Visconti (1374 – 2 February 1432), married on 26 January 1395 Ernest, Duke of Bavaria, by whom she had five children including Albert III, Duke of Bavaria.
Lucia Visconti (ca. 1380 – 14 April 1424), married firstly on 28 June 1399 Frederick of Thuringia (future Elector of Saxony) but the union was dissolved on grounds of non-consummation shortly after; married secondly on 24 January 1407 Edmund Holland, 4th Earl of Kent. No issue.

That's 7 marriages to German princes/princesses, not to mention their ensuing children who had Visconti blood and ongoing relations.

Duke Gian Galeazzo Visconti (1351 - 1402), was himself married to one of these siblings/offspring of Bernabo, Caterina. What is intriguing about him is his alliance with Wenceslaus (1361 –1419), King of the Romans, Germany and of Bohemia (deposed 1400) and as king assumed the government of the Holy Roman Empire, but never crowned as such, from whom Visconti received the title of Duke of Milan from in 1395 for 100,000 florins. They attempted to help each other with their respective goals of King of Lombardy (Italy even?) and Holy Roman Emperor.

An intriguing illuminated book made in Prague for Wencelaus is Vienna, Österreichische Nationalbibliothek Cod. 2352, dated to 1392 (3 years before the Duchy of Milan is granted to Visconti), which features the Sortes version Prenostica Socratric Baslilei and also features a symbolic Rota Fortuna (with the “regno” terms found in tarot) and the additional astrological material of Michael Scot's Liber introductorius, shifting the focus on fate to things astrological. The Prenostica Socratis Basilei,to reiterate,, is the Latin translation of Arabic sortes, with the list of 16 questions, which begs the question as to whether Visconti had a version of this via his ally...and again, did this influence Marziano in any way with his 16 heroum?

MS 2352 can be viewed here: https://digital.onb.ac.at/RepViewer/vie ... iew=SINGLE

A few images from it:
The title page for the opening Michael Scots section features an astronomer, but this leaf, featuring the motto of Wencelaus and impresa, precedes the sortes section as a second title page within the codex: Sol and Luna remain little changed from the earlier use in the Visconti castle frescoes at Angera, right, and this MS - Michael Scot's Liber provided a fairly stable copybook of astrological images And the 16th king, followed by the alphabet wheel with lot numbers cast (the preceding folios feature 3 kings per sheet):