Re: Tarot makers of Lyon - 1601-1738

21
SteveM ...
According to [the somewhat later] Statutes of the Maitre-Cartier of Lyon, a person could not receive Mastership prior to the age of 20, excepting that he be the son of a Master, and both parents were deceased, in which case he could be received as a Master at age 15.
Nicolas 2 was a single son (?), possibly his mother was dead, too, in 1611?

SteveM ...
Though I know Depaulis [& others] thinks such an early date is highly unlikely, and at one point I agreed, as I have been researching the cardmakers of Lyon, I am seeing less and less of a problem with that.

Well, we have Catelin Geofroy making a Tarot deck in 1557 (in Lyon) and I have presented earlier good reasons to assume, that the Tarot de Paris was arranged in 1559 (though Depaulis suggested 1600), and we've an increased interest in Italian matters (inclusive Tarocchi) since the reign of Henry III (since 1574) and later with Maria de Medici was a second Italian Queen on the French throne, so why should somebody have problems with an early Rolichon Tarot deck? If he indeed started to make playing cards in the 1570s, then he should have taken part in the early Tarot fashion in France.
Perhaps there is a modern strong lobby for a Marseille Tarot from Marseille, and not much interest for an early Tarot of Lyon? .... :-)
During the reign of Louis XI (1461–83) four annual fairs were established, which drew merchants from all over Europe, especially Italy (and Florence in particular). Lyon became a major centre for the spice trade and, even more importantly, the silk trade, following the authorization by François I of weaving privileges, hitherto an Italian monopoly. The Florentine immigrants also made Lyon a financial centre for banking and insurance.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Lyon

There were Italians in Lyon in 16th century, no doubt. The article ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Marseille
... reports not much about Italians in this city. Actually it seems, that French kings had problems with Marseille in the critical time.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Tarot makers of Lyon - 1601-1738

22
SteveM wrote: 27 Jan 2022, 05:26
Huck wrote: 26 Jan 2022, 20:32 If no other Nicolas Rochillon appears, one might come to the conclusion, that the Rochilon deck is from a date before June 1637 and older than Vievil and Noblet.
Though I know Depaulis [& others] thinks such an early date is highly unlikely, and at one point I agreed, as I have been researching the cardmakers of Lyon, I am seeing less and less of a problem with that.
My impression is that tarot in northern France preserved something of older traditions, both in the card designs and the game rules (including the trump order), while card players and card makers in Lyon and the south moved on to embrace what became the Tarot de Marseille. This would explain the existence of fairly standard Type I Tarot de Marseille decks before Viéville and Noblet.

As further evidence of the age of the Tarot de Marseille designs, I'm also of the view that the Castello Sforzesco World card was an Italian copy of a French design. There is really no other explanation of it which makes sense. The alternative explanation—that the French copied its design from an Italian card—is implausible because this design cannot really date from much earlier than the late 16th century, yet it seems very unlikely that French tarot designs would have been so strongly influenced by Italian ones at that time. The French cardmakers had been making tarot decks for several decades at that point, and were in a strong position commercially, so they are more likely to have been exporting decks to Italy, rather than being influenced themselves by imports from Italy. This is further supported by the Viéville/Noblet style World cards, which, with their roughly oval wreath and more complete depictions of the four evangelical creatures, look like an earlier version. This early version is more likely to have developed into the Tarot de Marseille version in France, rather than being replaced by a second, later import from Italy.

The Castello Sforzesco World appears to date from before the time when the names were added to the bottom of the trumps, so it is likely to be from the first half of the 17th century, and quite possibly the early years of that century. That would imply that the Tarot de Marseille pattern was established in France (in Lyon and/or the south, at least) by that time. So the Rolichon deck could easily date to before 1637.

Re: Tarot makers of Lyon - 1601-1738

23
SteveM wrote: 26 Jan 2022, 10:43 The Dubesset is clearly made of up 2 or more decks. The engraving and orthography is clearly variant. On the 2 of Cups is a double-headed eagle with the initials C V: I think this must be none other than Claude Valentin, listed as the Jure of Maitre Cartiers in Lyon in 1668:
Image
Which means, I think, we can now add the name of Claude Valentine to our list of Lyon producers of Tarot!
Claude Valentin was a witness at the wedding of Martin Coinde - Maitre Cartier, to Catherine Ep Nas Rolichon Charey, widow of Maitre Cartier Nicolas Rolichon the younger [1595-1637], on November 18, 1638. I recall reading about some controversy regarding Valentin's usage of 'sole cartier to the emperor', but for the life of me, I can't remember where I read at the moment.

Re: Tarot makers of Lyon - 1601-1738

24
Sforza cards
Image


According Kaplan II, p. 289 ...
PAVLINVS [DA] CAST[E]LETO FECIT 1499
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castelletto
Castelletto is the name of a number of places in Italy:

Castelletto Cervo, province of Biella
Castelletto d'Erro, province of Alessandria
Castelletto di Branduzzo, province of Pavia
Castelletto d'Orba, province of Alessandria
Castelletto Merli, province of Alessandria
Castelletto Molina, province of Asti
Castelletto Monferrato, province of Alessandria
Castelletto sopra Ticino, province of Novara
Castelletto Stura, province of Cuneo
Castelletto Uzzone, province of Cuneo
Castelletto (Genoa), a residential quarter in the historic centre of Genoa
Castelletto, a 700-ft high rock next to the Tofana_di_Rozes mountain in Veneto
These are mostly locations in the West of Milan. Possibly one can conclude from this, that Paolino da Castelleto came from this region, which partly belonged to Milan and in other parts to French dominion. In late 1499 Milan became occupied by French troops, either Paolino had already settled in Milan or he accompanied the French troops. It's noted, that Paolino is known by documents already in 1494 (see below), likely in documents from Milan (???).

https://archivi.cini.it/storiaarte/deta ... startPage=
NOTIZIE STORICO-CRITICHE

Questa è la carta da gioco rappresenta un due di denari colorato a mano e vede fiori iscritti all'interno delle due monete, un cartiglio con un'iscrizione e un motivo decorativo con fiorellini. L'iscrizione reca il nome del fabbricante, Paolino da Castelletto, e la data 1499, secondo la consuetudine già diffusa in Francia e Italia di inserire l'indicazione dello stampatore nel due di denari (Novati 1908, p. 18).

Francesco Novati tra 1908 e 1910 pubblica tre documenti notarili su Paolino da Castelletto, che ne attestano l'attività come stampatore e pittore di carte da gioco tra 1494 e 1513 (Per la fabbricazione delle carte da gioco in Milano sugli inizi del sec. XVI, in «Archivio Storico Lombardo», vol. 9, anno 35, pp. 434-437; Ancora di Mastro Paolino di Castelletto, fabbricante di carte da gioco del sec. XV, in «Archivio Storico Lombardo», vol. 16, anno 37, p. 281; i documenti sono stati ripubblicati, tradotti dal latino all'italiano, in Leonardo e l'incisione 1984, pp. 176-177).

Si tratta di una delle 59 carte da gioco ritrovate nel 1906 dentro a cisterne e pozzi del Castello Sforzesco durante i lavori di restauro eseguiti sotto la direzione dell'architetto Luca Beltrami. Oggi sono conservate nella Raccolta Bertarelli e 25 sono xilografiche e databili tra la fine XV e la prima metà del XVI secolo (ALU.0751.1 - ALU.0781.1).

Queste 25 carte appartengono ad alcuni mazzi diversi, sulla loro divisione la critica non è però concorde. Tra esse non sono presenti trionfi e dunque non è possibile stabilire se si trattasse di mazzi normali o di mazzi di tarocchi, poiché entrambe le tipologie si rifacevano agli stessi modelli (Dummett, p. 334).
Un nucleo appare sicuro, grazie alla presenza dei dorsi originali, e comprende 19 carte (di buona parte si conservano solo frammenti; si tratta di due esemplari di cinque di spade, tre esemplari di sette di spade, uno di otto di spade, due di nove di spade, uno di quattro di coppe, uno di cinque di coppe, uno di nove di coppe, uno di dieci di coppe, uno di cavallo di coppe, uno di dieci di denari, uno di tre di bastoni, uno di re di bastoni e tre frammenti di fanti diversi tra loro di cui non è possibile identificare il seme con certezza; ALU.0758.1 - ALU.0772.1). Sui dorsi sono rappresentate divinità classiche (un esemplare di Saturno, due esemplari di Marte, tre di Verità, uno di Ercole, quattro di Proserpina, due di Plutone, quattro di Giove, uno di Mercurio e uno di Venere; ALU.0773.1 - ALU.0781.1).
Le restanti sei carte da gioco sono: un due di denari firmato da Paolino da Castelletto e datato 1499 (ALU.0751.1); un frammento di un re di coppe di cui si è conservato anche il dorso a quadretti (ALU.0755.1 - ALU.0756.1); un frammento di un quattro di coppe (ALU.0757.1); un cinque di coppe (ALU.0752.1), un cinque di bastoni (ALU.0753.1) e un cavallo di cui non è possibile identificare il seme (ALU.0754.1).

Secondo la ricostruzione di Stuart Kaplan il due di denari, il re di coppe e il quattro di coppe appartengono a tre mazzi distinti, mentre il cinque di coppe, il cinque di bastoni e il cavallo fanno parte dello stesso mazzo. Secondo Alberto Milano invece il cinque di coppe appartiene allo stesso mazzo del due di denari di Paolino da Castelletto, ricostruzione che per le dimensioni affini e il semplice motivo decorativo con fiorellini appare la più plausibile (e viene accettata da Clelia Alberici in Leonardo e l'incisione). Il cinque di bastoni ha una decorazione con lo stesso tipo di fiorellini a quattro petali, ma presenta un più sofisticato tratteggio all'interno dei motivi fitomorfi, oltre ad essere più largo rispetto al due di denari e al cinque di coppe.
Automatic translation ...
HISTORICAL-CRITICAL NEWS

This is the playing card represents a hand-colored two of coins and sees flowers inscribed inside the two coins, a cartouche with an inscription and a decorative motif with small flowers. The inscription bears the name of the manufacturer, Paolino da Castelletto, and the date 1499, according to the custom already widespread in France and Italy of inserting the printer's name in the two of denari (Novati 1908, p. 18).
Francesco Novati between 1908 and 1910 publishes three notarial documents on Paolino da Castelletto, which attest to his activity as a printer and painter of playing cards between 1494 and 1513 (For the manufacture of playing cards in Milan in the early 16th century, in "Lombard Historical Archive", vol. 9, year 35, pp. 434-437; Anchor by Mastro Paolino di Castelletto, manufacturer of playing cards of the XV century, in "Lombard Historical Archive", vol. 16, year 37 , p. 281; the documents have been republished, translated from Latin into Italian, in Leonardo and the 1984 engraving, pp. 176-177).
It is one of the 59 playing cards found in 1906 inside the cisterns and wells of the Castello Sforzesco during the restoration works carried out under the direction of the architect Luca Beltrami. Today they are kept in the Bertarelli Collection and 25 are woodcut and datable between the end of the 15th and the first half of the 16th century (ALU.0751.1 - ALU.0781.1).
These 25 cards belong to some different decks, however, criticism is not in agreement on their division. Among them there are no trumps and therefore it is not possible to establish whether they were normal decks or tarot decks, since both types were based on the same models (Dummett, p. 334).
A nucleus appears secure, thanks to the presence of the original backs, and includes 19 cards (most of which are preserved only fragments; these are two specimens of five of swords, three specimens of seven of swords, one of eight of swords, two of nine of swords, one of four of cups, one of five of cups, one of nine of cups, one of ten of cups, one of horse of cups, one of ten of coins, one of three of clubs, one of kings of sticks and three fragments of different foot soldiers whose suit cannot be identified with certainty; ALU.0758.1 - ALU.0772.1). On the backs are represented classical divinities (one specimen of Saturn, two specimens of Mars, three of Truth, one of Hercules, four of Proserpina, two of Pluto, four of Jupiter, one of Mercury and one of Venus; ALU.0773.1 - ALU .0781.1).
The remaining six playing cards are: a two of coins signed by Paolino da Castelletto and dated 1499 (ALU.0751.1); a fragment of a king of cups of which the checkered spine is also preserved (ALU.0755.1 - ALU.0756.1); a fragment of a four of cups (ALU.0757.1); a five of cups (ALU.0752.1), a five of clubs (ALU.0753.1) and a horse whose suit cannot be identified (ALU.0754.1).
According to Stuart Kaplan's reconstruction, the two of diamonds, the king of cups and the four of cups belong to three distinct decks, while the five of cups, the five of clubs and the horse are part of the same pack. According to Alberto Milano, on the other hand, the five of cups belongs to the same bunch as the two of denari by Paolino da Castelletto, a reconstruction which, due to its similar dimensions and the simple decorative motif with small flowers, appears to be the most plausible (and is accepted by Clelia Alberici in Leonardo and the engraving). The five of sticks has a decoration with the same type of four-petalled flowers, but has a more sophisticated hatching within the phytomorphic motifs, as well as being wider than the two of deniers and the five of cups.
The article mentions, that Novati notes the "custom already widespread in France and Italy of inserting the printer's name in the two of denari ". Actually I would like to know examples from the time before 1499 .

If the many examples before 1499 would be in France, it would mean decks with Latin suits in France, which probably are rare. If they would be in Italian decks, one would probably know the name of the printer. Do we have one? I have not.

*************************

The link above ...
https://archivi.cini.it/storiaarte/deta ... startPage=
... is very rich in its bibliography. It leads to many pictures of the Sforza castle finding and also to the Novati text. I`'m just going to explore it.
Novati F., "Carte da Gioco dei secoli XV, XVI e XVII rinvenute nel Castello Sforzesco", in Bullettino dei Civici Musei Artistico ed Archeologico di Milano, 1908, 17-20, 17-20, tav. IV
https://www.bdl.servizirl.it/bdl/bookre ... 2/mode/2up
Novati F., "Per la storia della carte da giuoco in Italia", in Il libro e la stampa, 1908, 54-69, 65-69, tav. II
http://www.internetculturale.it/jmms/ic ... =Braidense
Pictures 1
https://archivi.cini.it/storiaarte/arch ... dView=true
Pictures 2
l-rinascimenarchivi.cini.it/storiaarte/archive/IT-SDA-GUI001-000038/atlante-xilografie-italiane-deto.html?query=record_MST_MSTT_string_multi:"Luca+Beltrami+%281854-1933%29.+Storia%2C+arte+e+architettura+a+Milano"&gridView=true
The author of the nice page seems to be Piazzi M.L., 2018 .... thank you
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Tarot makers of Lyon - 1601-1738

25
My French isn't very good and I've problems to understand the following text. I assume, that it is about buildings, which are part of the Lyonese city wall. I assume, that there are captains for parts of the city walls, who had some rights on the buildings. I assume, that a Nicolas Rolichon was such a captain and he died in 1606 and I suspect, that this was the inventer of the Rolichon Tarot deck. In 1606 there was trouble about the Rochilon rights of the connected rooms of the wall between Bonet, pennon de Saint Pierre à Bernard, pennon de la Lanterne.
The trouble repeated in the year 1636 between Cartier, chef de la Côte Saint Sébastien et Michel, pennon du Griffon, I suspect, that this was about the same objects, which caused the trouble in 1606. From Nicolas Rolichon the Jeune we have, that he had died either in 1636 or 37, and here we have the answer, that it seems, that he died late in the year 1636 and for Nicolas Rolichon the Elder we have the missing detail of his death year with 1606.

LES RECENSEMENTS LYONNAIS DE 1597 ET 1636 | Olivier Zeller ....
Chapitre II. Le cadre des recensements : les pennonages
Subchapter: II - UNE HIERARCHIE DE QUARTIER
https://books.openedition.org/pul/14525
search for Rolichon, then you'll find the quoted text ...
Le groupe des capitaines pennons était loin d’être à l’abri des dissensions. Les querelles de prestige naissaient du désir d’exercer son autorité sur le plus grand nombre d’habitants et sur le plus grand territoire possibles. Aussi se disputait-on des hommes et des maisons, et ce d’autant plus aisément que nul plan ne remédiait à l’imprécision des descriptions de limites de quartiers. En 1606 le Consulat dut ainsi intervenir pour mettre fin à la querelle opposant Bonet, pennon de Saint Pierre à Bernard, pennon de la Lanterne, et fixer la frontière entre leurs fiefs respectifs40. Pareil incident éclata en 1636 entre Cartier, chef de la Côte Saint Sébastien et Michel, pennon du Griffon : c’est l’autorité sur deux maisons qu’ils se refusaient mutuellement41. Chaque officier de pennonage était si peu disposé à se laisser déposséder d’une parcelle de territoire que l’on attendait souvent son décès pour rectifier un tracé au préjudice de son quartier42. Ainsi ne dépouilla-t-on de deux maisons le pennonage du Temple qu’après la mort de son chef, Nicolas Rolichon, en 1606. Plus de quarante ans après rien n’aura changé quand le Consulat jettera les bases d’une future refonte des découpages43. Il aura attendu, pour ce faire, la disparition des capitaines de Confort et de la Grande Rue de l’Hôpital, Lentillon et Lagneau. Rien ne s’oppose alors à ce que l’on divise chacun de ces pennonages en deux, ce qui est aussitôt réalisé. En revanche, l’on ne prélèvera des rues de celui de Bourchanin et Bellecour pour créer un nouveau quartier que lorsque le commandement en sera vacant ; de même ne peut-on envisager dans l’immédiat la division des territoires du Griffon et de la Côte Saint Sebastien en trois parties ni celle du Temple et de Rue Mercière en trois autres : la présence à la tête de deux d’entre eux de capitaines pennons en charge depuis plusieurs années est un obstacle à pareil bouleversement. Mort ou démission leur épargneront un tel affront. Quant à ceux qui sont nommés capitaines des pennonages concernés, ils le sont sous condition d’accepter la future amputation de leur influence. Un capitaine pennon, s’il pouvait à la rigueur se dessaisir d’une ou deux maisons, ne pouvait accepter une réduction massive de son autorité au profit d’un de ses homologues.
*****************

Having arrived so far I detected 2 further appearance of Nicolas Rolichon in the same book (Annexes).
https://books.openedition.org/pul/14555
First I found this city map and this makes clear, that I was in error about "houses in the city wall", but found it as Nr. 3 as "deux maisons le pennonage du Temple" in the map as "3 Le Temple"
Image
I found the following overview of the ruling captains ...
Image
Under Port du Temple we find the name Rolichon for the period 1600-1610. As the name appears not later in the same row, one has to assume, that my suspicion about 1636 and a connection to the son was probably totally wrong.

Then I found 2 further appearances in the connected chapter (Annexes) of the same book:
https://books.openedition.org/pul/14555
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Tarot makers of Lyon - 1601-1738

26
Image


Lyon in 1582; Georg Braun & Frans Hogenberg ..

LARGE VERSION
https://www.zvab.com/servlet/BookDetail ... id=1&pid=1

Modern Lyon ...
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Lyon, ... 4d4.835659

Modern Lyon, Rue Port du Temple
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Rue+d ... d4.8323053

https://www.ruesdelyon.net/rue/532-rue- ... emple.html
A webpage for the street Rue Port du Temple. I made an
automatic translation for a part of the text.
Dedication
The knights of the order of the Temple were the first occupants of the district in the Middle Ages before being driven out when the order was dissolved.
On the edge of the Saône, the port which gave its name to the street had been built and which remained in place until the middle of the 19th century and the development of the quays following the floods.
Here we honor the Temple, a few tens of meters further south, we honor the monks, rue des Templiers.

Story
Before taking its current name, it was called Ecorche Boeuf. By going to the Gallo-Roman museum, you can learn that there was an important bull cult in the ancient world, this cult was transposed during the Middle Ages through a festival that was held at the summer solstice. . Every year, great processions crossed the city of Lyon, other processions criss-crossed the Saône. At the end, a live bull was thrown into the Saône. The current of the Saône caused the bull thrown from the stone bridge to run aground on the site of the current Place du Port du Temple. We skinned the beef on the spot to continue the party.
This festival, called feast of wonders brought overflows and the power put an end to it in 1347.
A series of houses were built along the north side street in 1235.
In March 1312, King Philippe le Bel came to Lyon as well as Pope Clement V, the latter promulgated three bulls organizing the dissolution of the temple and entrusting their property to the Hospitallers. The king and the pope then went to Vienna to hold a council.
On August 2, 1313, Renaud de Sainte Bonne gathered the notables of Lyon in the Hall of the Temple to announce to them his seneschalsy on the new territory by delegation of the king.
In 1315, the temple estate was sold to the Duke of Savoy.
In 1405, the convent was taken over by the Celestines who remained until 1779.
The port of the Temple began to be built in 1507.
In the 18th century, the north of the street was occupied by the mint.
At number 16, at the back of the courtyard, the café du cheval noir housed a Guignol theatre.
The pebbles that covered it were replaced by cobblestones around 1850.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Tarot makers of Lyon - 1601-1738

27
Steve,
do you see a way to get the old address of the cartier Rochilon?

The text, that I quoted already .... LES RECENSEMENTS LYONNAIS DE 1597 ET 1636 | Olivier Zeller .... has the following text (automatic translation) to "cartiers" in the chapter V.IV: Les métiers. LOCALISATION DES METIERS ET DECOUPAGE INSTITUTIONNEL.
https://books.openedition.org/pul/14537
This unity, this homogeneity of the trading district is, it seems, a unique case in Lyon. This is because the boundaries, running through part of the Place de l'Herberie, the entrance to Rue Mercière and Rue Chalamont, only defined a limited space. It is otherwise in the other pennonages inhabited by merchants. The census of the houses of the rue Juiverie itself is only an enumeration of great Italian names, but the division also embraces poor buildings populated by ordinary people. The pennonage of the rue Mercière, although attached to that of the Herberie, presents a fairly wide variety of activities: beside many haberdashery merchants live hatters, because the Croisette is very close, cardmakers, belt makers, needle makers ... It is the same in Saint Nizier: there the drapers are gathered. It is a concentration of an extreme degree which includes the main merchants, the Ponthus, Quinson, Cellon. In this district, the entire house of a merchant is devoted to the cloth trade: there are three Germans, his associates, four servants and the Rotemond brothers: in all ten people forming an exclusively male household. But if, economically, this commercial core far outweighs the other activities of the district, numerically, it only represents a small fraction of the number of fires, of the order of a fifth. The fact remains that trades related to drapery - shearers, carders, tailors - are numerous in Saint-Nizier. It follows that if the textile is, as in the majority of the districts of Lyon, the predominant branch, the activities of production justify it more than those of marketing. L’Herberie, a homogeneous commercial district, therefore remains an isolated specific case.
The Dodal deck is very similar ...
https://www.deviantart.com/dcases/art/T ... -175943289

The trump names of the Rolichon deck are partly unusual: Very similar are the trump names of the Dodal edition.

Rolichon deck Dodal deck
--------------------------------------------------------------
LE°FOL LE°FOL
LE°BATELEUR LE°BATELEUR
LA°PAPESSE LA°PANCES
IMPERATRIS IMPERATRIS
LEMPEREUR LEMPEREUR
LE°PAPE LEPAPE
LAMOUREUX LA°MOUREU
LECHARIOR LE°CHARIOR
IVSTICE IVSTICE
LERMITE LERMITE
LA°ROVE°DE°FORTUNE LA°ROVEDE°FORTUNE
FORCE FORCE
LE°PENDV LE°PANDU
TEMPE°RANCE TEMPERANCE
LE°DIABLE LE°DIABLE
LA°MAISON°DIEU LA°MAISON°DIEU
IESTOILLE LE°TOILLE
LA°LUNE LA°LUNE
LE°SOLEEL LESOLEIL
LE°IUGEMENT LEIUGEMENT
LE°MONDE LEMONDE
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Tarot makers of Lyon - 1601-1738

28
Huck wrote: 30 Jan 2022, 18:33
Steve,
do you see a way to get the old address of the cartier Rochilon?
Hi Huck

Sorry but I am too unwell at the moment to go through looking at the archives, "rue Mercière" definitely rings a bell, but I am going on possibly a faulty recollection, I have not checked it, and do not feel up to doing so at the moment. But all the archives I have looked at are those that are online if you wish to check yourself. If I recall right most of the pertinent records I found were from the parish of Saint Nizier - but others may be fruitful too. Look at the alphabetical records first, if you find a name of possible interest they will give a folio number of the register where it is found - it is usually accurate, but if you do not find it there go forwards/back and it is usually there. Baptisms are generally easiest because usually the name is in the left-side column. But for marriages or deaths, some of them only have 'MAR' or 'ENT' in the left-side column and you have to zoom into the block of text to find what you're looking for. Also, depending upon the scribe, the handwriting and abbreviations can be difficult but becomes easier as you get accustomed to the period/scribes orthography. And you don't need to know french, or at least not much, the registers of religious acts are very formulaic, grasp the formula, it's easy. The amount of information you may or may not find depends upon the place, period & scribe.

Re: Tarot makers of Lyon - 1601-1738

30
SteveM wrote: 31 Jan 2022, 23:52
Huck wrote: 30 Jan 2022, 18:33
Steve,
do you see a way to get the old address of the cartier Rochilon?
Hi Huck

Sorry but I am too unwell at the moment to go through looking at the archives, "rue Mercière" definitely rings a bell, but I am going on possibly a faulty recollection, I have not checked it, and do not feel up to doing so at the moment. But all the archives I have looked at are those that are online if you wish to check yourself. If I recall right most of the pertinent records I found were from the parish of Saint Nizier - but others may be fruitful too. Look at the alphabetical records first, if you find a name of possible interest they will give a folio number of the register where it is found - it is usually accurate, but if you do not find it there argo forwards/back and it is usually there. Baptisms are generally easiest because usually the name is in the left-side column. But for marriages or deaths, some of them only have 'MAR' or 'ENT' in the left-side column and you have to zoom into the block of text to find what you're looking for. Also, depending upon the scribe, the handwriting and abbreviations can be difficult but becomes easier as you get accustomed to the period/scribes orthography. And you don't need to know french, or at least not much, the registers of religious acts are very formulaic, grasp the formula, it's easy. The amount of information you may or may not find depends upon the place, period & scribe.
ps: Jean Luc Lanez [with the support of Thierry Depaulis] has already done an enormous amount of research through the archives for various Cartiers of various regions, and published his results on geneanet - worth checking there first! [I have spent many hours looking through archives only to find later that he has already done it! Occasionally I have found something he missed - but very rarely]