Re: Tarot makers of Lyon - 1601-1738

13
SteveM wrote: 24 Jan 2022, 11:36
Question: What are 'Grands" & "Petits" tarot? A large & small tarot, or a full & a reduced [as in number of pips] tarot?
I haven't made any real study of this, nor have I done much research into the dimensions of French cards (tarot or otherwise), but I know that some French tarot decks were made in a larger size, roughly 126 x 68 mm (Cateliin Geoffroy, Viéville, Anon. Parisian, Dodal) while others were made in a smaller size: the Noblet deck is 92 x 57 mm. There may have been other sizes too, I don't know. But in Italy, at any rate, it seems to have been quite standard in most places for decks to be available in two sizes, and those two sizes were roughly the same across most regions. It would not be surprising if French cards likewise came in two more or less standard sizes.

Great work on Dubesset, by the way. Your assumptions seem very plausible.

Re: Tarot makers of Lyon - 1601-1738

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There is a second card with a Geoffray or Geoffroy ...






There are 18 cards (front and back) at ...

https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b10535997z

The page is connected to this text ...
Titre : [Cartes de tête issues de jeux au portrait de Lyon] : [jeu de cartes, estampe]
Éditeur : Antoine Janin (Lyon)
Éditeur : Nicolas Rolichon (Lyon)
Éditeur : Guillaume Charpentier (Lyon)
Éditeur : Jehan Genevoix (Lyon)
Éditeur : Catelin Geoffray (Lyon)

Date d'édition : 1590
Notice du catalogue : Notice de recueil : http://catalogue.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/cb403336678
Relation : Appartient à : [Collection Paul Marteau. Recueil. Cartes à jouer]
Notice du catalogue : http://catalogue.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/cb409185058
Type : image fixe
Type : estampe
Langue : Sans contenu linguistique
Format : 18 cartes à jouer : gravure sur bois coloriée au pochoir ; formats divers
Format : image/jpeg
Format : Nombre total de vues : 36
Description : Ancien possesseur : Marteau, Paul (1885-1966). Ancien possesseur
Description : Référence bibliographique : Lambert, Paul Marteau 4
Description : Référence bibliographique : Seguin, Paul Marteau, 4
Description : Appartient à l’ensemble documentaire : JeuCart
Description : Carte à jouer
Droits : Consultable en ligne
Identifiant : ark:/12148/btv1b10535997z
Source : Bibliothèque nationale de France, département Estampes et photographie, RESERVE BOITE FOL-KH-381 (1, 4)
Provenance : Bibliothèque nationale de France
Date de mise en ligne : 14/03/2016
vue 3: .... Geoffroy ?
vue 25: Nicolas Rolichon
vue 27: Guillaume Charpentier
vue 29: Antoine Janin
vue 31: Jehan Genevoix
vue 33: Catelin Geoffray
vue 35: Nicolas Rolichon
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Tarot makers of Lyon - 1601-1738

16
The Dubesset is clearly made of up 2 or more decks. The engraving and orthography is clearly variant. On the 2 of Cups is a double-headed eagle with the initials C V: I think this must be none other than Claude Valentin, listed as the Jure of Maitre Cartiers in Lyon in 1668:
Image
Which means, I think, we can now add the name of Claude Valentine to our list of Lyon producers of Tarot!

Re: Tarot makers of Lyon - 1601-1738

17
Jean Luc Lanez has already done the research on the Maitre Cartier Claude Valentin, and published his family tree on geneanet here:

https://gw.geneanet.org/lanezjl?n=valen ... de+cartier

And also the Rolichon family of cardmakers:

https://gw.geneanet.org/lanezjl?n=rolic ... &p=nicolas

And while I was busy searching through the archives researching Jean Dodat [Dodal], he published that too:

https://gw.geneanet.org/lanezjl?n=dodal ... an+cartier

Re: Tarot makers of Lyon - 1601-1738

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Very good, Steven

Nicolas Rolichon 3 the notary
https://gw.geneanet.org/lanezjl?n=rolic ... &p=nicolas

I wrote earlier ...
I saw a notary Nicolas Rolichon twice mentioned for the years around 1669-1675.
https://archives.rhone.fr/media/7d7a839 ... ea134b.pdf
So this was a relative.

******************

Nicolas Rolichon 2 the Jeune (maitre cartier in 1622)
https://gw.geneanet.org/lanezjl?lang=fr ... n=rolichon
lived 17 april 1595 - before June 1637

Jean Luc Lanez wrote ...
Événements
17 avril 1595 : Naissance - Saint Pierre - Saint Saturnin - Lyon, 69000, Rhône, Auvergne-Rhône-Alpes, FRANCE
sur tables renvoi vers page 24 - acte vue 45/101
fils de honorable Nicolas ROLICHON marchand cartier et d'Isabeau PIN

Ce Nicolas est probablement Nicolas "le jeune" (à confirmer après vérification sur acte de mariage si on le trouve. Cet acte doit être à Thiers ou Lyon vers/avant 1620 mais lacunes dans les AD de Thiers sur la période)

Rue Mercière au Maillet d'argent en 1622 1625

Rolichon (Nicolas), cartier; Lyon, xvi*-xvn* s.
A Lyon en 1572 et 1635.11 demeurait rue Mercière, « Au Maillet d’argent ». Il fut maître de métier en 1579, 1581, 1582, 1588, 1593, 1594, 1597, 1603, 1605, 1611, 1630 et 1634. Il dut y avoir deux cartiers du nom de Nicolas Rolichon : il est difficilement admis­sible, en effet, que le même artiste exerçant déjà en 1572, ait pu remplir encore l’office de maître de métier en 1634
Marraine : Anthoinette ROLICHON
Parrain : Leonard Dominotier ODET
avant 1620 : Mariage (avec Catherine Ep Nas Rolichon CHAREY)
le parrain de Jean, son fils né en 1625, est Jehan PAIN (ou PIN ?) boulanger, qui pourrait être un oncle maternel
février 1632 : Vivant - Saint-Nizier - Lyon, 69000, Rhône, Auvergne-Rhône-Alpes, FRANCE
Consentement des Maîtres et/ou compagnons cartiers en février 1632 pour Jeanne Bertholon & Antoinette Dumont
Rue Mercière au Maillet d'argent en 1622
1636 : Vivant
naissance Nicolas
avant 31 mai 1637 : Décès - Lyon, 69000, Rhône, Auvergne-Rhône-Alpes, FRANCE
décédé avant la naissance de Claudine 31 mai 1637
Lanez assumes two cartiers with the same name Nicolas Rolichon (as others). One has to decide which of the documents belong to Nicolas 1 and which belong
to Nicolas 2. There are two ways ...
1. Il fut maître de métier en 1579, 1581, 1582, 1588, 1593, 1594, 1597, 1603, 1605, 1611, 1630 et 1634
2. Il fut maître de métier en 1579, 1581, 1582, 1588, 1593, 1594, 1597, 1603, 1605, 1611, 1630 et 1634


****************

Nicolas Rolichon 1 the marchand cartier

Lanez has suspicions, that he died in the year 1606.
This is agreement with another of my Nicolas Rolichon findings, where Nicolas isn't called a cartier.

I wrote ....
In this text a Nicolas Rolichon in Lyon is mentioned, who died in 1606 ....
https://books.openedition.org/pul/14525?lang=de
Ainsi ne dépouilla-t-on de deux maisons le pennonage du Temple qu’après la mort de son chef, Nicolas Rolichon, en 1606.
If this proves correct, the second interpretation above would be likely preferable.
2. Il fut maître de métier en 1579, 1581, 1582, 1588, 1593, 1594, 1597, 1603, 1605, 1611, 1630 et 1634
Nicolas the Jeune would have been 16 years old in 1611, when he was called maitre cartier. I think, this wouldn't be aproblem for a single heir, who followed his dead father in the profession.

If no other Nicolas Rochilon appears, one might come to the conclusion, that the Rochilon deck is from a date before June 1637 and older than Vievil and Noblet.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Tarot makers of Lyon - 1601-1738

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Huck wrote: 26 Jan 2022, 20:32
Nicolas the Jeune would have been 16 years old in 1611, when he was called maitre cartier. I think, this wouldn't be aproblem for a single heir, who followed his dead father in the profession.
According to [the somewhat later] Statutes of the Maitre-Cartier of Lyon, a person could not receive Mastership prior to the age of 20, excepting that he be the son of a Master, and both parents were deceased, in which case he could be received as a Master at age 15. An apprentice at the end of his apprenticeship could be received as a Master, without the required term of companionship, on a payment of 25 Livre.

Apprenticeships generally were for five years - an apprentice had to be Catholic and no younger than 12 years, though from contracts of apprenticeships I've seen the average age of commencement of apprenticeship was 15/16. If it was later discovered they were not Catholic, they would be stripped of whatever qualification they might have received and any rights to work as a cardmaker, and pay a forfeit of 50 livre to the Master that had obliged them.

Re: Tarot makers of Lyon - 1601-1738

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SteveM wrote: 27 Jan 2022, 05:19
Huck wrote: 26 Jan 2022, 20:32 If no other Nicolas Rochillon appears, one might come to the conclusion, that the Rochilon deck is from a date before June 1637 and older than Vievil and Noblet.
Though I know Depaulis [& others] thinks such an early date is highly unlikely, and at one point I agreed, as I have been researching the cardmakers of Lyon, I am seeing less and less of a problem with that.