Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

531
Huck wrote: 19 Jul 2022, 19:15 Do you see any sign, that Boccaccio knew the 12-Olympian-Gods system?

The 16 gods of the Echecs amoureux knew other gods. It has a focus on the 7-planet gods.

The 20/22 figures in De deorum imaginibus libellus / Albrici / Reg. Lat. 1290 has also a focus on the 7-planet gods

Marziano doesn't stop with the 12 Olympian gods so why does he need to be dependent on any source that focuses on that?

Panofsky pointed out the Libellus reorganizing Bersuire by putting the planets first: "in this case their sequence is rearranged once more so as to reinstate, in a general way, the system devised by Berchorius, particularly the grouping of the planetary gods at the beginning" (81). This is not new information and frankly I don't see its relevance. Marziano doesn't order his gods according to a planetary scheme - Juno and Pallas are #s 2and 3, with Neptune at #6; Mercury is down at #9.

Marziano's four moral categories don't care if a god/dess is planetary - but rather whether they exemplify Virtue, Riches, Virginity or Pleasure. And anyone would place the more important gods over demigods in an ordinal ranking, placing Aeolus (who obeys Juno in myth), Hercules, Daphne towards the end. Cupido, the lone exception, pulls up the rear for Petrarchan reasons - per his Trionfi he drives all others, including gods, before him (unless of course one is fortified with Virtue and Virginity...but that is decided by the behavior of the individual: the schema of the game itself remains fundamentally Petrarchan).

Marziano is picking and choosing from the Libellus (with an eye on Petrarch's Africa) - it is not a straight forward template.

Why does Marziano's 16, not 12, "heroes" depend on Manilius?

Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

532
:-) .... if one was aware about the 12 Olympian gods as a fixed antique group, it wasn't very difficult to realize, that 11 of the first 12 god trumps in the Michelino deck belonged to the standard version of the 12 Olympic gods. The old antique versions also had occasionally modifications, so a Bacchos instead a _Hephaistos didn't disturb too much.

Hercules as the 13th Olympian is also a very old idea. As far I know, It was used, when a regent had become very successful and was declared to be a god, as in the cases of Alexander and Augustus. For instance presented here ... https://theworldofalexanderthegreat.wor ... /hercules/
Why does Marziano's 16, not 12, "heroes" depend on Manilius?
... :-) ... the 14th century had had a favour for 16 chess and 16 geomantic figures.

Manilius had used the 12 Olympians and had formed 6 pairs, which possibly existed also in the older Greek model. The six pairs appeared as 6 oppositions in his zodiac model with 12 Olympians. And it had a Vulcanus. Who had trouble with his feet, and trouble with his wife, which had the lover Mars. Filippo Maria didn't like that. Possibly he feared, that this sort of astrology would damage his public picture, cause he recently in 1418 had his wife killed for adultery. And Filippo had also problems with his feet.
The very successful old-texts-researcher Poggio Bracchiolini had suddenly a mission far away from Italy, already when he still was in Mantua. And he was very unlucky there.



Poggio life at treccani.it ...
https://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/po ... ografico)/
translated ... https://www-treccani-it.translate.goog/ ... r_pto=wapp
Here the period of 1415-23 ...
Deposed John XXIII in Constance on 29 May 1415 and dissolved the Curia, Poggio preferred to remain in the German city pending further decisions of the council, dedicating himself, during this wait, to the search for manuscripts of classical works. He was not entirely new to this activity as a researcher: already in 1407 he had carried out investigations, we do not know exactly with what results, in the libraries of Montecassino and Naples; and in the spring of 1415, perhaps taking advantage of a mission entrusted to him by John XXIII, he had been able to discover in a Cluniac codex the Ciceronian orations Pro Murena and Pro Sexto Roscio. But much more fruitful were the researches specifically carried out, during 1416 and 1417, in the libraries, still largely unexplored, of the convents and cathedrals of Switzerland, Germany and France. From the monastery of San Gallo, where he went with Cencio de 'Rustici and Bartolomeo Aragazzi da Montepulciano in June and early July 1416, he unearthed a manuscript containing the complete text of Quintilian's Institutiones oratoriae , until then known only in severely incomplete specimens; the first three and a half books of Valerio Flacco's Argonautica ; Asconio Pediano's commentary on Cicero's five orations and another anonymous to four Verrines ; and still new manuscripts of already known works, such as theDe ira Dei and Lattanzio's De opificio hominis , and Vitruvius's De Architectura . A second trip in January 1417, again with Bartolomeo da Montepulciano and again to San Gallo and other nearby monasteries, resulted in the discovery of new codes of Vegezio's Epitoma rei militaris and many other manuscripts. In a third investigation, which B. carried out alone in Germany and in particular in Fulda in the spring of the same year, his luck and more acute intuition led him to unearth the Lucretian poem, the Astronomica di Manilio, the Punicaby Silio Italico, the stories of Ammiano Marcellino, various writings by Tertullian, and some grammatical works. Finally, on a fourth journey, made in the summer through France and Germany, he discovered the oration Pro Caecina at Langres, and in the library of the cathedral of Cologne - a discovery he was particularly pleased with - seven other Ciceronian prayers ( Pro Roscio comoedo , three De lege agraria, Contra Rullum, Pro Rabirio, In Pisonem, Pro Rabirio Postumo ). Also to this last trip it seems that the discoveries of the Silvae di Stazio, of the Vita Aristotelis, of a second complete example of Quintilian, and of a new code of the De re rustica should be assignedby Columella. Overall, a series of findings in number and importance that are truly exceptional, and comparable only to those that, around the same years, Giovanni Aurispa was making in the field of Greek literature. Nor should it be forgotten that of several of the manuscripts discovered he personally made copies with his neat and precise writing, copies which in more than one case, having lost the code he found later, remain the only surviving text of the ancient work.
This activity of discoverer, of which he gave news from time to time to Italian friends, to Niccoli, to Bruni, to Traversari, to Guarino, to Francesco Barbaro, contributed to making his name very famous; but this fame was not enough to have him readmitted to the Curia of the new Pope Martin V (elected in Constance on 11 November 1417) with the same office as secretary to which John XXIII had promoted him. For the moment he was content with the post of apostolic writer: after a year, however, all hope of better accommodation vanished, he accepted the invitation of Cardinal Henry Beaufort, bishop of Winchester, who took him with him to England. He remained there from 1418 to the beginning of 1423, " [translated by the automat: "they have cooled down their former zeal for humanity, to which I have been, as you know, from childhood addicted. For the principles of these studies are vain, partly false, and all to vanity. But the principle of sacred eloquence is the truth, by which, when we lose, we can do nothing right, nothing tender, we can do nothing"]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poggio_Bracciolini ... a note about 14 children in a first marriage
In December 1435, at age 56, tired of the unstable character of his single life, Poggio left his long-term mistress and delegitimized the fourteen children he had had with her, scoured Florence for a wife, and married a girl of a noble Florentine family, not yet 18, Selvaggia dei Buondelmonti. In spite of the remonstrances and dire predictions of all his friends about the age discrepancy, the marriage was a happy one, producing five sons and a daughter. Poggio wrote a spate of long letters to justify his move, and composed one of his famous dialogues, An Seni Sit uxor ducenda (Whether an old man should marry, 1436).
A comment about the manuscript black market in 15th century
https://bookophile.com/wie-tacitus-zu-e ... ler-wurde/
Freche Diebstähle aus deutschen Klöstern
Jahrhunderte lang hatte eine Handschrift mit Teilen der Annales des Tacitus im deutschen Kloster Corvey gelegen. Wer sie wann dem Kloster entwendete? Wir wissen es nicht. Was wir aber wissen ist, dass es Ende des 15. Jahrhunderts auch in Deutschland bekannt war, dass es da so merkwürdige Menschen in Italien gab, die unheimlich hohe Preise für alte Bücher zu zahlen bereit waren. Der in Corvey gestohlene Codex hatte schon mehrfach den Eigentümer gewechselt, ehe Papst Leo X. ihn für seine Bibliothek kaufte, das Manuskript drucken ließ und einen der Drucke zum Dank an die Abtei Corvey schickte. Dort freute man sich sehr über die päpstliche Aufmerksamkeit und den Ersatz.
Andere Klöster sahen das nicht so entspannt. Der italienische Humanist Poggio Bracciolini, der Anfang des 15. Jahrhunderts in Deutschland nach Handschriften suchte, schrieb darüber 1427 an einen Freund: „Wenn ich die Schrift von Cornelius Tacitus erhalte, werde ich sie gut verstecken – denn ich kenne ja das übliche Lied: Woher stammt sie und wer brachte sie hierher? Wer erhebt den Anspruch, ihr rechtmäßiger Besitzer zu sein? Aber mache dir keine Sorgen: nicht ein Wort wird über meine Lippen kommen.“
Auch wenn die italienischen Humanisten durch einen Diebstahl an die Codices gekommen waren, nutzten sie diese gut und sorgten für ihre Publikation und Verbreitung. Doch Tacitus war zunächst kein Erfolg. Er war nicht in diesem wunderbaren Latein geschrieben, das die Humanisten von Cicero kannten und so sehr liebten. Und außerdem: Livius schrieb ordentliche Militärgeschichte. Diese Intrigen dagegen, die Tacitus thematisierte, die waren der hehren Geschichtsschreibung wirklich nicht wert!
automatic translation
Cheeky thefts from German monasteries
For centuries a manuscript containing parts of the Annales of Tacitus had lain in the German monastery of Corvey. Who stole them from the monastery and when? We do not know it. But what we do know is that at the end of the 15th century it was also known in Germany that there were strange people in Italy who were willing to pay incredibly high prices for old books. The codex stolen in Corvey had changed hands several times before Pope Leo X bought it for his library, had the manuscript printed and sent one of the prints to Corvey Abbey as a thank you. There they were very happy about the papal attention and the replacement.
Other monasteries were not so relaxed. The Italian humanist Poggio Bracciolini, who was looking for manuscripts in Germany at the beginning of the 15th century, wrote to a friend in 1427: "When I receive the writing of Cornelius Tacitus, I will hide it well - because I know the usual song: Woher is she from and who brought her here? Who claims to be their rightful owner? But don't worry: not a word will cross my lips."
Even if the Italian humanists stole the codices, they made good use of them and ensured their publication and dissemination. But Tacitus was initially unsuccessful. It was not written in that beautiful Latin which the humanists knew from Cicero and loved so much. And besides, Livy wrote decent military history. On the other hand, these intrigues, which Tacitus addressed, were really not worthy of the noble historiography!
Yes, we had then in the Michelino deck ...
13 Hercules ... somhow connected as an astronom to Time ... Petrarca Trionfi 5
14 Aelos ... with his trumpet connected to Fame .... Petrarca 4
15 Daphne alias Laura, connected to chastity ... Petrarca 2
16 Amor, love god .... Petrarca 1

And in the later Milanese Tarot order we have ...
1 an erotic magician .... Love .... Petrarca 1
2 Papessa ... a virgin with chastity .... Petrarca 2
3 Famous ... as an Empress mother .... Petrarca 4
4 Hercules ... an Emperor .... Petrarca 5
-------- 5 Pope
6 Love .... Petrarca 1
7 bride virgin on chariot ... with chastity ... Petrarca 2
8 Justice as Fame ... Petrarca 4
9 Father Time ... as Time ... Petrarca 5
---------
and in the final end ... with second artist
an Eros putto at the sun card
two Eros putti at the world card
Image
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

533
Huck wrote: 20 Jul 2022, 08:01 :-) .... if one was aware about the 12 Olympian gods as a fixed antique group, it wasn't very difficult to realize, that 11 of the first 12 god trumps in the Michelino deck belonged to the standard version of the 12 Olympic gods. The old antique versions also had occasionally modifications, so a Bacchos instead a _Hephaistos didn't disturb too much.

Hercules as the 13th Olympian is also a very old idea. As far I know, It was used, when a regent had become very successful and was declared to be a god, as in the cases of Alexander and Augustus. For instance presented here ... https://theworldofalexanderthegreat.wor ... /hercules/
Why does Marziano's 16, not 12, "heroes" depend on Manilius?
... :-) ... the 14th century had had a favour for 16 chess and 16 geomantic figures.
8 equal pawns does not inform an ordinal ranking of the gods in any manner. Chess does not have four suits, at the heart of Marziano's "fourfold" organization of his game. Strike 3: ALL of the Olympic gods can be found in the pre-Manilius Ovide moralise tradition. If one's goal is to show up to 16 pagan gods then the 12 primary ones are of course going to be shown - one doesn't need Manilius for that. You might have a case if Marziano followed Manilius's rankings of the gods - he doesn't. There are zero signs of influence, especially in your caveat "Bacchos instead a _Hephaistos didn't disturb too much.." - yes, but you are arguing for a direct influence of Manilius on Marziano, who is now suddenly altering the sacrosanct list of gods from a indisputable classical source. Nonsense. Marziano altered Petrarch''s Africa because he undertsood what Petrarch was up to - modifying Capella for a North African king's palace.

To expand on the gods in the Ovide moralise tradition, while the Libellus only has 14 of Marziano's 16 (and all of the Olympians, with no help from Manilius) which it predates the rediscovery of), Pizan's Othea, 1399-1400, has all of Marziano (not all are illuminated in the MSs that have survived - and most MS have no illustrations) is a more encyclopedia version of the Ovide moralise tradition, but focused on the Trojan War (as the ancestors of France - like for the Visconti - are traced back to a mythical founder from Troy).

Moroever, Pizan's friend was Valentina Visconti, the owner of Lombard and 'Saracen' decks, for whom her husband as the dedicatee of the Othea itself - as in this MS dedicated to the queen of France, Isabeau of Bavaria, herself half Visconti on her mom's side. It is much more likely the Visconti court was in possession of or aware of a summary of the Otheathan a Manilius which did not exist by the time of Marziano's most likely writing of it. Even though he'd long been assassinated, here is Valentina Visconti's husband, Louis of Orleans, discussing the Othea with Pizan in the copy made for Isabeau: https://www.bl.uk/catalogues/illuminate ... llID=22513
Card playing was rampant in the Visconti family - Marziano didn't need Manilius to apply the Ovide moralise tradition (already applied to Chess) to the different game of cards, but clearly an opportunity to get in on that allegorizing genre.

Back to Pizan, numerous of her illuminations look like later Visconti cards, as if the latter had been inspired by the former - which I think a strong argument can be made for.

Othea Venus-CY "World" - I've already pointed out four specific parallels that make influence all but assured.

Othea Atropos (when one's length of life is cut and one is dead), essentially looks like the PMB Death card - a death figure holding long spear-like arrows over the usual cast of ranks of men dead below (vs. being mounted):

Image

Othea Sun-PMB Sun - Finally, your PMB red-headed Sun was already depicted that way in Pizan (represented multiple times, naturally as the tutelary god of the Trojans...and of interest to the radiant sun imprese of the Visconti)

Image
Image

And in Marziano, Apollo/Sun has his "head locks decorated with laurel, by both Caesarian and poetic law" - that clearly comes from Daphne, shown as the source of laurel in Pizan. Whence the critical personage of Daphne in Manilius, or Cupid for that matter?

Image
Image

And since Cupid/Daphne is foundational for the theme of Marziano's deck, and he employs birds for the four suits, it might be of some interest to see yet another version of Cupid in Pizan surrounded by birds (metamorphosis of humans into birds is the arch symbol of transformation in Ovid, esepcially as reflected in his reception in French medieval literature):

Image

In fact, one might consider the bird pips as aspirational towards godhead, or conversely, punished as such: "the bird becomes the archetypal incarnation of mutability" (Griffin, Miranda. Transforming Tales: Rewriting Metamorphosis in Medieval French Literature. Oxford University Press, 2015: 221). Love/Cupido is that transforming agent, for better or worse. And what after all is the key word in the anonymous allegorical poem that inspired Conty's own work, written between 1370 and 1380 in which the game of chess serves as the controlling metaphor? Les Échecs amoureux (Conty's own c. 1400 work was entitled Eschez amoureux, moralises). if you can't recognize the Ovid tradition as the impetus behind the chess treatises and what Marziano adapted for cards, then you need to continue your research.

Pizan is at least a dozen years before Marziano - not too old to be unfashionable (the particular MS from the images were taken above were from New Year's Day 1414, but the Othea had already been illuminated and copybooks must have been used - I presume one making it to Pavia, consulted/utilized for both the CY and PMB) and has all of the gods necessary for Marziano. While the Libellus and Boccaccio informed Marziano in his updating of Petrarch's Africa passage, the artist employed would have looked for existing examples of the pagan gods depictions and the Othea was available. Keep in mind Valentina Visconti was Filippo's half-sister, and would have inherited the original Othea MS when Louis was assassinated (and that became an affair of state involving the Visocnti).

For the involvement of the Visconti court with Manlius during the life of Marziano there is a dearth of material.

Phaeded

PS You cite Manilius as if his treatment of the 12 Olympian gods was novel information - Petrarch relies on Livy for his Africa and where we also find the 12 gods, if paired: Ab Urbe Condita Libri, XXII.10.9 . "Six couches were publicly exhibited; one for Jupiter and Juno, another for Neptune and Minerva, a third for Mars and Venus, a fourth for Apollo and Diana, a fifth for Vulcan and Vesta, and the sixth for Mercury and Ceres. This was followed by the vowing of temples. Q. Fabius Maximus, as Dictator, vowed the temple to Venus Erycina, because it was laid down in the Books of Fate that this vow should be made by the man who possessed the supreme authority in the State." Manilius as the source for the Olympians is completely unwarranted.

Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

534
Phaeded wrote
.... while the Libellus only has 14 of Marziano's 16 (and all of the Olympians) ....
... considering the first 12, then there are 8 of 12 in the Libellus, and 6 of these depend on the planet gods ...
Saturnus / Jupiter - 1r
Mars / Apollo - 1v
Venus / Mercury - 2r
Diane / Minerva - 2v

Pan / Pluto - 3r
Juno / Cybele - 3v
Eolus / Janus - 4r
Vulcan / Neptun - 4v
Vesta / Orpheus - 5r
Bacchus / Aesculapius - 5v
Perseus / Heracles fights the centaurs - 5 a r
Heracles fights lion & rescues Alceste - 5 a v
Heracles robe the apple & kills the Hydra - 6r
Heracles slays Achelous & Cacus - 6v
Heracles slays Diomedes & Antheus - 7r
Heracles slays the boar & Geryon - 7v
Heracles tricks Atlas / Ceres - 8r
.... and in the chess book of Evrart de Conty we have, again considering the first 12, 9 of 12 and again 6 of these depend on the 7 planet gods ....

05 - Saturn
06 - Jupiter
07 - Mars
08 - Apollon
09 - Venus
10 - Mercury
11 - Diane
12 - Pallas
13 - Juno
14 - Neptun

15 - Pluto
16 - Cybele
17 - Vulcan
18 - Bacchus
19 - Aesculapius
20 - Pan

The Trionfi.com argument since 2003 was, that the Visconti cards have 11 of 12 Olympic gods in the first 12 of the Michelino deck trumps.
http://trionfi.com/olympic-gods
Neither in the case of the Libellus or the Conty chess book it was spoken of 12 Olmpian gods. It was obvious, that these representation worked with the planet gods, which should be a result of the Roman astrology, when the 7-days-week was adopted by the Romans.
Constantine formally established the 7-day week by making Sunday an official holiday in 321.

... is given by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_calendar .... Soooo late, I had thought, that it was much earlier. The Bible and the Babylonians knew it earlier.
The Roman had a sort of 8-days-week. The 7-days-week developed with the acceptance of the Christians.

What was your next argument? 2 lines of Livius?

I wrote earlier .. viewtopic.php?p=25052#p25052
Livy Ab Urbe Condita 22,10,9 .... 2 Forum lines
Apuleius, De Deo Socratis II,9-19 .... 8 Forum lines
Arnobius, Adversus nationes liber III, 40 .... 13 Forum lines

Livy Ab Urbe Condita 22,10,9 .... there is indeed not much more than 2 lines
https://books.google.de/books?id=4lEEEA ... t,&f=false
Livius had this snippet of 2 lines, and the Manilius text had the sensation of a text, which was just restored to human knowledge and had more than 200 pages and you want indeed, that the Livius Micky Mouse snippet shall compete with the Manilius monster Garfield? The reason, that we with our billions of computers
can find such snippets, is a fine thing, but we should realize, that Filippo Maria Visconti hadn't these computers, but a library of 1000 books and it is hardly imaginable, that he knew all the 2-line-snippets there. The Apuleius text is also not very remarkable, and Arnobius is interesting, cause he wrote about Manilius.

The Wiegendrucke Datenbank ... https://www.gesamtkatalogderwiegendrucke.de .... has 8 entries for the name Marcus Manilius:
09981 Firmicus Maternus, Julius: Mathesis with works of Manilius, Venice 1499
M20624 Astronomicon. Bologna 1474
M20626 Astronomicon. Milan 1489
M20628 Astronomicon. Naples 1476
M20629 Astronomicon. Naples 1475
M20630 Astronomicon. Nuremberg 1473/74
M20631 Astronomicon. Rome 1484
M20635 Astronomicon. Venedig ?

Titus Livius got 28 prints in 15th century. Considering, that he had a work with much more text than Manilius and was also the much more famous man, one should see, that the Manilius text was rather successful.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

535
Huck wrote: 21 Jul 2022, 04:22

.... and in the chess book of Evrart de Conty we have, again considering the first 12, 9 of 12 and again 6 of these depend on the 7 planet gods ....

....
What was your next argument? 2 lines of Livius?

I wrote earlier .. viewtopic.php?p=25052#p25052
Livy Ab Urbe Condita 22,10,9 .... 2 Forum lines
Apuleius, De Deo Socratis II,9-19 .... 8 Forum lines
Arnobius, Adversus nationes liber III, 40 .... 13 Forum lines

Livy Ab Urbe Condita 22,10,9 .... there is indeed not much more than 2 lines
https://books.google.de/books?id=4lEEEA ... t,&f=false
Livius had this snippet of 2 lines, and the Manilius text had the sensation of a text, which was just restored to human knowledge
....
Marziano does not order his gods based on a planetary order not does he talk up their planetary aspects. And any discussion of the planets would have come from any astrological treatise such as Bonatti. Are you even aware that a major criticism of Manilius is that he promises an in depth discussion of the planets and never delivers?

Knowledge is not something you weigh - your dismissal of Livy because he condensed the 12 gods into "two lines" is simply laughable. Good gawd. Numerous classical sources mention 12 gods - if the only source for that was Livy, that made him so much more precious - and Petrarch used him. The reason there were so few MS of Livy is because of his length: "was tedious to copy, expensive, and required a lot of storage space..... The poet Beccadelli sold a country home for funding to purchase one manuscript copied by Poggio.[23]"

Everything in Marziano can be traced back to Petrarch - the 14 gods from the Libellus ultimately goes back to Petrarch, as does the pronounced role of Cupid and Daphne, which has nothing to do with Manilius. There is no special pleading for Petrarch because of his strong links to Milan before Marziano wrote.

Your bricolage theory based on Manilius is rife with special pleading:
* Manilius in Milan before Marziano wrote? Special pleading
* Why no planetary order in Marziano although supposedly interested in that? Special pleading.
* Why 16 gods when there are only 12 in Manilius? Special pleading.
* Why was Aeolus, Daphne and Cupid supposedly cobbled onto Manilius? Special pleading.

Petrarch is the obvious answer for Marziano's sources and Manilius has nothing to do with that.

Phaeded

Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

536
Huck wrote...
Do you have found something with relevance in the last 100 years before 1418, why the circle of astronomers and astrologers around Filippo Maria Visconti should turn to the pagan 12 Olympian god system for a card deck decoration? The Manilius text would be a reason.
At the end of viewtopic.php?p=25046#p25046

Ross answered with 3 quotes, which were not something with relevance in the last 100 years before 1418

Huck reacted with a detailed reply to these 3 early sources and a link to a German source, which really knows a lot about the 12 Olympian gods (but not about the concept in 14th century, I think).

It doesn't change the condition, that neither Ross nor Phaeded did answer something to the question about "]something with relevance in the last 100 years before 1418" for the 12 Olympian gods.

Filippo Maria Visconti had read Livius and Livius had a 2-line-information inside a text of 142 books is not really an answer.

https://www.nzz.ch/article9P8E4-ld.308854
Als Dichter der «Africa» wollte Petrarca das Höchste vollbringen, Dante überflügeln und mit seiner Verherrlichung des Scipio Africanus zugleich Robert von Anjou ein Denkmal setzen, dem Herrscher von Neapel, dem er die Krönung in Rom verdankte. Als aber zwei Jahre später Robert starb und Petrarcas insgeheim gehegte Hoffnung zunichte wurde, Avignon, die Kurie und seinen Dienstherrn, den Kardinal Giovanni Colonna, verlassen zu können, um in Neapel Hofdichter zu werden, da verlor er an der «Africa» mehr und mehr das Interesse.
Dass die ganz unepische Anlage des Werks mit seinen langen lyrischen Passagen und elegischen Betrachtungen sich in der Ausführung als immer sperriger erwies, dürfte hinzugekommen sein. Doch entsteht im Schatten der «Africa» ein neuer Laura-Mythos, eine neue, verwegene Hoffnung, mit einer Sammlung volkssprachiger lyrischer Gedichte sich den ersehnten dichterischen Ruhm zu erringen. Der Name der Geliebten, die seine Gedichte umkreisen, sei er Laura oder in lateinischer Form Laurea, weckt die Erinnerung an jene Daphne, die sich einst dem sie verfolgenden Gott Apoll entzog und sich in einen Lorbeer verwandelte. Erst Daphnes Abwesenheit macht Apoll zu ihrem Dichter, der sich für seine Kunst den Lorbeer erringt. Im Namen der Laura oder Laurea gibt der Dichter seiner Liebe zum Ruhm und mehr noch seiner Liebe zur Dichtung eine poetische Gestalt.
automatic translation
As a poet of «Africa», Petrarch wanted to achieve the highest, to surpass Dante and, with his glorification of Scipio Africanus, at the same time erect a monument to Robert of Anjou, the ruler of Naples, to whom he owed his coronation in Rome. But when Robert died two years later and Petrarch's secret hope of being able to leave Avignon, the Curia and his employer, Cardinal Giovanni Colonna, to become court poet in Naples was shattered, he lost more and more to the "Africa". the interest.
The fact that the completely unepic structure of the work, with its long lyrical passages and elegiac reflections, proved to be increasingly cumbersome in execution may also have been a factor. But in the shadow of "Africa" ​​a new Laura myth arises, a new, daring hope of gaining the poetic fame she longs for with a collection of vernacular lyrical poems. The name of the lovers who surround his poems, be it Laura or in Latin Laurea, evokes the memory of Daphne, who once evaded the god Apollo who was pursuing her and turned into a laurel. Only Daphne's absence makes Apollo her poet, who wins laurels for his art. In the name of Laura or Laurea, the poet gives poetic form to his love of fame, and still more to his love of poetry.
Wiki: Robert of Anjou (Italian: Roberto d'Angiò), known as Robert the Wise (Italian: Roberto il Saggio; 1276 – 20 January 1343), was King of Naples, titular King of Jerusalem and Count of Provence and Forcalquier from 1309 to 1343, the central figure of Italian politics of his time.

Wiki: Joanna I, also known as Johanna I (Italian: Giovanna I; December 1325[1] – 27 July 1382), was Queen of Naples,[a] and Countess of Provence and Forcalquier from 1343 to 1382; she was also Princess of Achaea from 1373 to 1381.
Joanna was the eldest daughter of Charles, Duke of Calabria and Marie of Valois to survive infancy. Her father was the son of Robert the Wise, King of Naples, but he died before his father in 1328. Three years later, King Robert appointed Joanna as his heir and ordered his vassals to swear fealty to her. To strengthen Joanna's position, he concluded an agreement with his nephew, King Charles I of Hungary, about the marriage of Charles's younger son, Andrew, and Joanna. Charles I also wanted to secure his uncle's inheritance to Andrew, but King Robert named Joanna as his sole heir on his deathbed in 1343. He also appointed a regency council to govern his realms until Joanna's 21st birthday, but the regents could not actually take control of state administration after the King's death.
Joanna's personal life crucially affected the political stability of the Kingdom of Naples (murder of her first husband Andrew in 1345, the invasions of King Louis I of Hungary, ... etc)
This adds to the question, that Petrarca was frustrated in his hopes to get an interesting job in Naples, it wasn't the earthquake/tsusami alone.

In the time of the Michelino deck Naples was reigned by Joanna II, it seems probable, that Filippo Maria didn't admire her. She was 19 years older than Filippo Maria, though ... one year younger than Beatrice Lascaris di Tenda.

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Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

537
Time to put a fork into this Manilius theory once and for all, so we can mercifully move on from this.

Huck, you are fixated on the near coincidence of the rediscovery of Manilius and the Marziano's creation, but never go beyond that near coincidence to show the causal relationship - the textual connective tissue - between the Astronomica and the Tractatus. And you haven't provided strong (any?) evidence as to why Ross's proposed 1412 date for the Tractatus is wrong, which makes the entirety of your premise a non-starter, but I'll let Ross handle that one should you address it. I'm focusing on the critical textual linkages between the Astronomica and the Tractatus...which are non-existent.

Let's start with Goold's justly famous translation of Manilius and his introductory comments of the various sections:
...unlike other astrologers Manilius makes the zodiac, not the planets, paramount to his system. He obviously avoids coming to grips with them [the planets].... (Goold, 1977: xcviii).
All of the other technical apparatuses Manilius describes are based directly on the zodiac or the number 12, deriving from it. In Book 2 the Trigona, Quadrata, Hexagona, Diametra, Videntia, Audientia, Insidantia, Dodecatemories, are all based on geometrical relationships of the zodiacal signs to one another; in Book 3 length of life is zodiacal based, and in Book 4 his unique treatment of the decans, the Decanica (4.294-407), is based on an additional ring of three zodical decans within each zodiacal sign for the 36 decans. In short, it is inconceivable that any work based on Manilius would not reference the zodiac. Indeed, the subject at hand is explicitly related to this same zodiacal theme: the Olympian gods assigned to the zodiac as tutelary gods (2.433-447). Where is a single zodiacal sign described in Marziano in his description of the individual gods? NOT A ONE.

In fact there is a constellation associated with the first and highest god, but its not even zodiacal. I already pointed this out earlier in this thread:
Marziano says to the low right side [of Jove] "a burning star like Mars" and further clarifies that it is deployed to "preserve the republic/state" and then mentions the Giants for a second time. This "star" is in fact lightning, and it is fiery red like Mars as it leads to fire; Jupiter specifically fulminates - strikes down with lightning- to destroy the Giants....Otherwise Marziano says of Jupiter that the "images of four stars attend him." What is Jupiter's other major symbol besides lightning? The eagle, and it is that animal that attends on him, and gives its name to the entire suit that Jupiter heads up. But why is the eagle represented by four stars? Its also known as the constellation Aquila (Latin for eagle) and shown in all medieval manuscripts with four stars (usually shown with Sagitta, the arrow being a symbol of Jupiter's lightning bolt - the eagle "carries" Jupiter's bolt - and sometimes Sagitta is an alternate name for the "Tower" trump which Jupiter has struck with his bolt....). [I provided 3 medieval astronomical MS images of Aquila - here's one; note the four red dots on the eagle to indicate the four stars that make up that constellation]:

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viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1422&p=21908&hilit=Aquila#p21908

What's in Manilius? "...and you Jupiter...the Lion" [Leonem - Leo] (2.441). Whoops - nary so much as a a paw print of that animal in Marziano's description of Jupiter.

And Livy's two supposedly paltry lines (as paltry as Virgil's two lines in his Eclogue IV which launched an entire medieval cottage industry about the Sibyl and Christ: The Virgin reappears and Saturn reigns / From heav'n descends a novel progeny) is not even necessary for identifying the 12 Olympian gods in Marziano. Petrarch, to reiterate my own main point, relied on Capella for the 16 celestial gods...and Marziano relied on Petrarch, aware of Petrarch's ultimate source (and indeed replaces Philology with Daphne, just as Petrarch would). And what do we find just a few paragraphs from the preceding section in Capella before the 16 regions of the sky in section 1.45f?:
[1.41-42]And soon the scribe [Mercury] of Jove was ordered to summon the deities, each in his own rank....Amongst the others to be invited were the most powerful associates of Jove himself, those who with the Thunderer make up up the Twelve and whose names are included in the couplet of Ennius:

Juno, Vesta, Minerva, Ceres, Diana, Venus, Mars, Mercury, Jove, Neptune, Vulcan, Apollo
. (Stahl, 1977:21).
Bam: The Manilius theory bleeds out, dead. Marziano never would have needed to rely on the discovery of Manilius for the Olympian 12 (if in fact it was even that central to his game; and certainly ignores the paramount Olympian-zodiacal connection in Manilius) - and there is no minimizing the widespread influence of Capella.

Capella's citation of the Roman epic poet Ennius for the Olympian 12 is of ultimate significance since it is the otherwise lost Ennius work on on the war on Carthage - the Annales - that Petrarch's Africa is trying to replace, and indeed has Ennius himself in the epic prophesy Petrarch's own writing of the Africa. Everything in Marziano points to Petrarch and Capella (e.g., again, see the reference to Mercury and the 16 gods in Marziano).


Phaeded

Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

538
And you haven't provided strong (any?) evidence as to why Ross's proposed 1412 date for the Tractatus is wrong
When Franco wrote his articles (1989) he suggested 1414, cause a title mentioned in the text of the Marziano text. Filippo Maria got this in 1414.

We raised that to 1418, cause there was outside knowledge, that Michelino wasn't in Milan before 1418.

In the djungle of this theme (more than 500 contributions) it's difficult to find something. I personally don't think, that it is probable, that Marziano worked 1412 on the text.

Your Capella argument has the same problem. Beside that, Capella is too early to help really in the problem of the 12-Olympians in 14th century Italy.

You should think about Manilius - Dorotheos - Ptelomaios, from which Manilius is the first and Dorotheos the second and Ptelomaios the third on a time scale. Ptolemaios had an idea, which planet (= Greek/Roman god) rules in which zodiac sign. Dorotheos had the same idea, but 6 planet positions were different. Manilius was the first and he used the 12 Olympian gods.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

539
Huck wrote: 24 Jul 2022, 04:52 When Franco wrote his articles (1989) he suggested 1414, cause a title mentioned in the text of the Marziano text. Filippo Maria got this in 1414.

We raised that to 1418, cause there was outside knowledge, that Michelino wasn't in Milan before 1418.
You can lead a horse to water....

Nevertheless, it never hurts to reiterate facts for those who might profit from them.

On the title “duke.”

Filippo Maria was officially styled “duke” from 16 June 1412. Marziano himself, cancellarius, wrote the documents.
viewtopic.php?p=21730#p21730

The linked post was a response to Huck.

On Michelino not being in Milan (probably, but we don't know much about his activities in those years, he could have come and gone at any point, which may not have been recorded if private, like a summons from the duke)

Filippo Maria maintained contact with Michelino when he was outside of Milan.
Giovanni da Thiene (1330-1415), Filippo Maria's childhood tutor and later counsellor when he was count of Pavia, died in 1415 and was entombed in Vicenza, the family home.
Filippo Maria paid for the tomb, and had the following inscription written:
Ioannes ex clarissima ac vetusta Thiaenea gente miles vir belli ac pacis artibus clarus Parthenopes regum Caroli ac Ladislai consiliarius et Brutiorum prorex ab eisque compluribus castris et jurisdictionibus donatus mox Insubrum duci Philippi consiliarius ac gubernator a quo ditione Pedetesinae LXII pagorum et Lacisi secundum majorum suorum jura et aliis bonis auctus tandem hoc decoro constructo sacello anno Domini MCCCCXV aetatis suae LXXXV obiit.

Giovanni from the most famous and ancient Thiene family; a knight, a man famous in the arts of war and peace; counsellor of kings Charles (III) and Ladislas of Naples and the viceroy of Brutiorum, and granted many castles and jurisdictions by them; next he was counsellor and governor of Filippo duke of Milan (Insuber); by whose authority he was enriched by 62 towns of Pieditesina (Rampazzo) and Lazise (south-east shore of Lago di Garda) according to the rights of his ancestors along with other possessions; finally by the construction of this fitting shrine, in the year 1415, dead at the age of 85.
The painting at the top, showing two saints presenting Giovanni to the enthroned Virgin with the baby Jesus, was painted by Michelino.

Filippo Maria paid for Giovanni's tomb in Vicenza, and commissioned Michelino to make the painting.
(Filippo duke of Milan, by whose authority he was enriched by the construction of this fitting shrine, in the year 1415)

In other words, Michelino did not have be in Milan for Filippo Maria to have commissioned a deck of cards from him.

Giovanni da Thiene's tomb in the Chiesa di Santa Corona, Vicenza (photo by Sirleonidas in 2020 at wikimedia commons)-
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http://www.rosscaldwell.com/marzianotex ... uta_12.jpg

Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

540
Vizenza has about 60 km distance to Venice and about 185 km to Milan. It's generally said, that Michelineo was active in the Venice region, there's no problem, that Filippo gave the commission to him. Any artist in Milan, that he had to send to Vizenza would have caused more expenses.

Italian wiki has ....
Dal 1404 al 1418 circa, l'artista lavorò nel Veneto; mentre dal 1410, contemporaneamente a Gentile da Fabriano, è citato a Venezia. Nel 1414 lavorò insieme a miniatori veneti al codice Cornaro, con le Epistole di san Gerolamo (Londra, British Library, Egerton 3266). Del periodo veneto restano in particolare due affreschi votivi per la tomba Thiene nella Chiesa di Santa Corona a Vicenza.

Nel 1418 l'artista tornò a Milano a lavorare per il cantiere del Duomo: nel 1421 fu pagato, insieme al figlio Leonardo, per i dipinti dell'altare intitolato ai santi Quirico e Giulitta; mentre tra 1423 e il 1425 fu nuovamente pagato per la fornitura di disegni della vetrata di santa Giuditta, di cui restano oggi alcune figure all'interno di un'altra delle vetrate del duomo milanese.
The treccani articles didn't contradict.

Well, I don't say, that it is not possible, that Filppo gave the card production mission to a painter, who lived in Venice or the Veneto, but I don't believe, that this is the probable solution. It simply looks not very likely.
A commission of a card deck probably demands a lot of communication between artist and commissioner, and if the commission was somehow related to the price of 1500 ducats .... it's simply not probable.
Huck
http://trionfi.com
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