Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

551
On pages 30-31 he talks about the letter and the date, and suggests it was written in the fall of 1441 -
Il fatto che la lettera rechi l’anno 1441 induce a pensare che tale interpretazione sia plausibile, poiché proprio il 9 agosto di quello stesso, come già ricordato in precedenza, la Serenissima concede ai fuggiaschi del '38 di potersi presentare liberamente e senza timore a Venezia, obbligandoli a rimanere nella capitale in attesa di accertamenti sulla condotta di ciascuno, per scongiurare la confisca di tutti i beni. La missiva non reca il mese in cui viene scritta, ma è possibile farla risale all’autunno inoltrato poiché vi si allude all’abilità acquisita nell’uso della tecnica dell’oro in polvere, conseguente a una pratica prolungata, avviata probabilmente a partire dall’estate del 1441

(deepl automatic translation -
The fact that the letter bears the year 1441 suggests that this interpretation is plausible, since on August 9 of that very same, as mentioned earlier, the Serenissima granted the fugitives of '38 to be allowed to present themselves freely and without fear in Venice, obliging them to remain in the capital pending investigations into each one's conduct, in order to avert the confiscation of all property. The missive does not bear the month in which it is written, but it is possible to make it date to late autumn since it alludes to the skill acquired in the use of the powdered gold technique, resulting from a prolonged practice, initiated probably beginning in the summer of 1441)
"fugitives of '38" refers to the preceding discussion, in which some Veronese had to flee Venetian territory because of accusations of treason by association with Gianfrancesco Gonzaga in the service of Visconti, when in Matteo's case it was probably to escape an outbreak of plague that he left his family's fief in Verona. So he would not have been in Venice before the late summer of 1441.
È opinione di chi scrive che egli alluda attraverso le proprie parole al rientro forzato a Venezia causato dalla necessità di rendere conto alle autorità del proprio comportamento in occasione della fuga dalle campagne veronesi nell’estate del 1438 a causa della pestilenza. Appare molto probabile che il Pasti vi abbia partecipato, poiché si è convinti che egli, titolare da un anno insieme ai fratelli di un feudo situato sul confine veronese con Mantova, si trovasse in quei luoghi e possa essersi spinto, similmente a tanti concittadini, nelle terre del Gonzaga per evitare il contagio. D’altro canto l’ipotesi della sua partecipazione a quei fatti, anche se non dimostrabile, è da accogliere funzionalmente alla necessità di spiegare le parole che dichiaratamente alludono a un soggiorno forzato a Venezia.

It is the writer's opinion that he alludes through his words to the forced return to Venice caused by the need to account to the authorities for his own
behavior on the occasion of his flight from the Veronese countryside in the summer 1438 because of the plague. It seems very likely that Pasti took part in it, since it is believed that he, who had owned a fief located on the Veronese border with Mantua for a year together with his brothers, was in those places and may have gone, similarly to many fellow citizens, to the Gonzaga lands to avoid the contagion. On the other hand, the hypothesis of his participation in those events, even if not demonstrable, may be accepted as workable explanation of the words that declaredly allude to a forced stay in Venice.
The words that allude to being forced to be in Venice are:
E caramente vi priegho, che vui mi vogliate perdonare di quello ch’io ho fatto, perché vui sapete che mi fu forzia a far quello ch’io feci
And I warmly beg you to forgive me for what I have done, because you know I was forced to do so.
I found Milanesi's edition of the letter in 2012 and posted it here - viewtopic.php?p=12397#p12397

In the very next post you, Huck, say that the letter was written "1441 January 24," but I can't find anyone else claiming it was January.

Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

552
I started to research, when I got this "January 1441" for the Matteo de Pasti letter in my head. I found a first in this forum for 2012, but this wasn't the original, but just already manifested opinion.
I searched in Tarotforum.net and found this ... https://www.tarotforum.net/threads/fame.88143/ ... (the date of this is lost)
Ross Caldwell: "The precise date of Matteo's letter appears to be 24 January, 1441.
Put "matteo de pasti" +1441+trionfi in the google books search, and you will find some fragments, but they are enough for the date .... "
I followed this old advice and found this interesting source ...
https://www.jstor.org/stable/27653140
Matteo de' Pasti and the use of Powdered Gold
by Francis Ames-Lewis (1984)
https://journals.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/i ... 6819/48144 .... looks like a complete version

The author seems to have the opinion, that Paris, Bibliothèque nationale de France, italien 1471 "is the project on which Matteo de Pasti was working on in 1441.

I followed this lead and got this disappointing result: https://petrarch.mml.ox.ac.uk/index.php/item/1240
Perhaps you've better ways to deal with this problem.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

554
Huck wrote: 13 Jan 2023, 15:37
The author seems to have the opinion, that Paris, Bibliothèque nationale de France, italien 1471 "is the project on which Matteo de Pasti was working on in 1441.

I followed this lead and got this disappointing result: https://petrarch.mml.ox.ac.uk/index.php/item/1240
Perhaps you've better ways to deal with this problem.
There don't seem to be any depictions of the trionfi in that manuscript, just decorated initials:

"Decorated initials in gold for RVF 1 (fol. 1r), RVF 264 (fol. 100r), and the beginning of each Triumphus (fols. 142r, 155r, 159r, 169r, 177r, and 180r); at fol. 1r is an architectural frame with four medallions and a coat of arms at the bottom of the fol.; a few maniculae."
https://petrarch.mml.ox.ac.uk/manuscrip ... alien-1471

Ah, here it is, from Ada Labriola in our catalogue.
The oldest manuscript he [Piero] commissioned, around 1440 or a little later, has been identified with an exemplar of the Canzoniere and Trionfi held in Paris (BnF, Italien 1471). Unfortunately, the six illuminated pages of the trionfi have disappeared. The frontispiece, whose ornamentation is attributed to the Florentine Filippo di Matteo Torelli (1408/1410-1468), has been preserved.(note 9)

Note 9: Francis Ames-Lewis, The Library and Manuscripts of Piero di Cosimo de' Medici, New York / London, 1984, p. 7, 336-337, 399. See equally Labriola 2012, p. 80, 81, fig. 48.
Her own paper is this one:
https://www.academia.edu/36171892/Da_Pa ... _pp_59_115

Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

555
If I'm responsible for this "January," then I apologize. I was mistaken.
.... no problem ... :-) ... I remembered the January 1441 ... but I forgot the source. and I became used to transport this item.

From the Venice calendar system with a start of the year at 1st of March 12 dates between 24th of March 1441 and 24th of February 1442 would be logical.
A 24th of October would be right near to the wedding and the poetical contest. But Piero might have taken preparations before.

I would exspect, that somewhere in the jungle of Gallica should be a place for this important text arranged by Matteo de Pasti. But it seems, that the BNF regards it as a later text than 1441. No word about the English language suspicions and Matteo de Pasti.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

556
Huck wrote: 13 Jan 2023, 16:20
I would exspect, that somewhere in the jungle of Gallica should be a place for this important text arranged by Matteo de Pasti. But it seems, that the BNF regards it as a later text than 1441. No word about the English language suspicions and Matteo de Pasti.
They have not put it online yet -

https://archivesetmanuscrits.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/cc10506j

The only bibliography they know on this page is Antonio Marsand, I Manoscritti italiani della Regia Biblioteca parigina descritti ed illustrati dal dottore Antonio Marsand,... - Parigi, Stamp. reale, 1835-1838, so it could use Ames-Lewis and Labriola, at the very least.

Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

558
MikeH posted in 2013 in the thread "How Petrarca became famous" ...
viewtopic.php?p=13334#p13334
Here is the letter of Matteo de' Pasti to Piero de' Medici, 1441, in English (from Chambers, Patrons and Artists in the Italian Renaissance, 1971, pp. 94-95):
Admirable and honoured Sir:
By this letter I beg to inform you that since being in Venice I have learnt something which coild not be more suited to the work I am doing for you, a technique of using powdered gold like any other colour, and I have already begun to paint the Triumphs in this manner, so that you will never have seen anything like them before. The foliage is all touched up with this powdered gold, and I have embroidered it over the maidens in a thousand ways. So I warmly beg you to send me instructions for the other fantasies, so that I can complete them for you; and if you want me to send these to you I will do so: you need only send me the order for what you want me to do and I shall be prompt to obey you in whatever pleases you. And I warmly beg you to forgive me for what I have done, because you know I was forced to do so. Resolve the matter as you wish, and if you so please, send me your instructions to go ahead with the Triumph of Fame, because I have details of the fantasy already, except that I do not know whether you want the seated woman in a simple dress or a cloak as I would like her to be. I know all the rest of what is to go in: the four elephants drawing her chariot, though I do not know whether you want young men and maidens surrounding her or famous old men; so please tell me all, because I shall make a thing of beauty in the way that pleases you. And forgive me for everything, what I am doing now will be worth more one day than all I have done before. So do me this gracious service, deign to let me have a reply, and let me finish it, so that you may see a thing that has never been like this before, embellished with this powdered gold. I recommend myself to you.
Venice, 24...1441
From the least of your servants, Matteo de' Pasti
It is clear, from his words "'send me instructions for the other fantasies," that he is thinking in terms of more than just the Triumph of Fame, probably all six. It is not clear how many were made, or where Matteo lived before Venice. It would seem that the idea of the elephants came from Piero, but even that is not totally clear. If they were made, it was most likely a book illumination, because of the expensive paint, if any survived, there would be powdered gold in the paint, a Venetian technique he has just learned,
And I warmly beg you to forgive me for what I have done, because you know I was forced to do so.
.... this seems to mean, that Piero and Matteo knew each other from an earlier opportunity, at which the commission for the Trionfi didn't exist.

four elephants drawing her chariot
.... leads to the question, when the first Fama with elephant existed ... ?

1. ... discussed at 2012/13
viewtopic.php?p=13327#p13327
Image


The Bologna Trionfi text of 1414 has a Fama with horses
Image


Large at ..
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-WgfxEAku5wI/U ... he1414.JPG

2. .... this was recently discussed as very old Fama Trionfi representation
viewtopic.php?p=25473#p25473
Image

Large picture ...
http://a.trionfi.eu/q/y-fame.jpg

Adam+Eve with apple tree + Fama with sword and book (bible ?), possibly the angle (without wings), who protects the paradize garden


3. ... Chaucer described Fama with words (The Hous of Fame), and he associates Fama with Eolus and Eolus, the god of winds is associated with the trumpet, which accompanies Fame.
https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/45 ... .html#hfII ... it's complicated to find the passage ... search with ctrl-F for "Eolus"

4. The manuscript of Marziano with its 16 gods has 3 gods, which associate the titles of Trionfi-chapters
Amor .... associates Love
Daphne .... associates Chastity
Eolus .... associates Fame
... and possibly Hercules associates Time

5. The Cary-Yale has a card, which might be associated to Fame ,,,

Image

Image
*************

Added later:

It is not clear[/b] how many were made, or where Matteo lived before Venice

There is the idea, that he was born in Verona and that his family lived there. 1437-1438 Pisanello was in Verona (?), and there is a theory about a relation between Pisanello and Matteo.
English wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pisanello
Political unrest
In 1438, a war broke out between the ruler of Milan Filippo Maria Visconti and the republic of Venice. Pisanello was in Mantua with Gianfancresco Gonzaga. They decided to play a part in the capture of Verona. Consequently, the Venetian government called him a rebel and threatened him with a stiff sentence. Only an intercession by a powerful friend could preserve him.
After a stay in Milan between 1440 and 1441, Pisanello went back to Ferrara in 1441. There he painted his acclaimed portrait of Lionello d'Este, now on display at the Accademia Carrara, Bergamo. His Madonna and Child with Two Saints (National Gallery, London) probably dated from the same period. The impressive fresco cycle Scenes of War and Chivalry in the Palazzo Ducale di Mantova, Mantua probably dates from 1447.
Image
Pellegrini chapel, Saint George and the princess by Pisanello - Pellegrini_Chapel - Sant'Anastasia - Verona, 1436-38
Last edited by Huck on 17 Jan 2023, 04:18, edited 4 times in total.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

559
Huck wrote: 16 Jan 2023, 10:27
.... leads to the question, when the first Fama with elephant existed ... ?
Guastella in Word of Mouth (2017), which is essentially the definitive work on the iconography of Fame now, suggested that the wording in Matteo de' Pasti's letter means that the elephants had already become standard by the time he was writing (note 113, p. 306). As far as I know, however, that letter is their first known appearance in the context of the chariot of Fame. Earlier images of Fame or Gloria Mundi (such as those illustrating Petrarch's De Viris Illustribus), decades before, always showed her chariot pulled by white horses, and Fame's chariot was still pulled by white horses in Apollonio di Giovanni's illustrations for the Trionfi poems in ms. Med. Pal. 72 in the Biblioteca Medicea Laurenziana, done in 1442.

Guastella (305-306, 289) also says that elephants pulling triumphal chariots would have been known to the Italians from Roman art, such as the designs on Roman coins. This is also probably where they got other symbols of Fame, such as the globe and the small winged figure, one of which is often held in Fame's left hand. They would have also read the works of Roman authors like Pliny, who described ancient Roman triumphs where the triumphant general's chariot was pulled by elephants.

Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

560
Wikipedia has ... a History of Elephants in Europe
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... _in_Europe

As far I can see it, there are no elephants in the 3 chapters of the Trionfo Fame poem of Petrarca ...
https://petrarch.petersadlon.com/read_t ... e=IV-I.txt
https://petrarch.petersadlon.com/read_t ... =IV-II.txt
https://petrarch.petersadlon.com/read_t ... IV-III.txt
https://petrarch.petersadlon.com/read_t ... ge=IV-I.en
https://petrarch.petersadlon.com/read_t ... e=IV-II.en
https://petrarch.petersadlon.com/read_t ... =IV-III.en

http://trionfi.com/0/k/biondi/
This was an attempt to learn something about Biondo Biondi or Flavio Biondo or Flavius Blondus, written a longer time ago.
To make it simple: The earlier Roman Trionfi culture wandered to Constantinople and had there some longer existence, The Western part of Europe lost it more or less, but also the Eastern part had some downfall finally. Nonetheless there in Constantinople were the better archives. With the council of Ferrara/Florence some new old material wandered from East to West, that is to Florence and to pope Eugen and the persons around Eugen. Biondi was one of them.

Let's assume, that Biondi knew 100% of that, what was known about Trionfi 1460 in Italy. How much of that knew Petrarca in 1375? 5%? 10%? 25%? 50%?

It's difficult. 5% is not impossible, I would assume. The theme "Trionfi" had a lot of progress in Italy.

Nathaniel, you wrote:
Guastella (305-306, 289) also says that elephants pulling triumphal chariots would have been known to the Italians from Roman art, such as the designs on Roman coins. This is also probably where they got other symbols of Fame, such as the globe and the small winged figure, one of which is often held in Fame's left hand. They would have also read the works of Roman authors like Pliny, who described ancient Roman triumphs where the triumphant general's chariot was pulled by elephants.
Petrarca had read Plinius or at least parts of his texts. "Petrarca Plinius" has a lot of results in the search engine.
But his Fama Trionfi text had no elephants. I think, Petrarca had none of the Trionfi animals in his Trionfi texts. Perhaps I was not careful enough, when I looked for them.
Huck
http://trionfi.com