Re: From Marziano to the Cary-Yale and the Ludus Triumphorum

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What your chart comes to is that two of the three groups that are in the earliest tarot are also in Marziano, namely the four virtues and the six petrarchans. Another that might be there is the Wheel of Fortune, represented by the four gods corresponding to riches. However, some of them are a stretch of the imagination, such as Ceres for Death and Apollo representing a river. Your comparisons, if I may call them that, with the early tarot suggest more that Marziano had some inspiration from the early tarot than the reverse. That was what Pratesi expressed in his first article on Marziano, too. Dummett, too, was attracted by that hypothesis, in his comments on Pratesi's article. He wrote ("A Comment on Marziano," The Playing Card, Vol. XVIII, No. 2 (Oct-Dec. 1989), p. 75)
Signor Pratesi has certainly pushed the probable date of the invention of the Tarot pack considerably further back; but he oversimplifies when he says (p.37) of Prince Fibbia that 'he was generally discarded as a candidate [for having invented the game] for being too early'. I do not recall anyone but myself who has rejected his claim on any but the false ground of the non-existence of his portrait. Part of my ground was that the evidence is so late: a portrait dating, I suppose, from the later XVII century is hardly strong ground for an event of the early XV century. It testifies to a family tradition; but a conjecture, intended to explain the presence of the Fibbia arms on some Bolognese cards, might have solidified into certainty. My original objection, in The Game of Tarot, was that Prince Fibbia was too early to have invented the game of tarocchini, as the inscription states. I have for long abandoned this view: if he had been the inventor of tarocchi in general, the word tarocchini, still in use for the only form of the game then known in Bologna (Minchiate excepted), might well have been employed in a XVII-century Bolognese inscription. It therefore already seemed to me possible, before Signor Pratesi's exciting discovery, that Prince Fibbia might really have been the inventor; but the evidence remains exceedingly flimsy.
Prince Fibbia, according to the inscription on the painting making the claim, died in 1419. If he had invented the tarot, it would have been somewhat earlier, perhaps even before Marziano wrote his essay. He reiterates his defense of the Fibbia hypothesis - as a hypothesis only, let me emphasize - in Il Mondo e L'Angelo. Nothing since Dummett's time goes against that hypothesis, as hypothesis. That 1440 is our first known mention (only two years earlier than what Dummett knew), only shows that the game wasn't noteworthy until noteworthy people showed an interest. Also, as primarily an educational game for children before then, it could easily escape notice for a long time. And if on top of that, it had been invented in another city, where many records have been lost due to upheavals, and not written about due to fear of censure from religious people (followers of Bernardino, for example, or the papal legate), it could have existed for a long time in that city without spreading further, like a fire that smolders for a long time before it reaches something really flammable. The "playing field" of conditions in various cities and various categories of players is hardly level.

Re: From Marziano to the Cary-Yale and the Ludus Triumphorum

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Two other points in Dummett's article quoted in my previous post are worth considering, too. First, after continuing to reject the idea of the PMB having originally just the 14 "first artist" cards (because of the presence of Justice, as he thought the card was), he adds (p. 75):
We know, however, that the composition of the Visconti di Modrone pack did not conform to what later came to be standard: the hypothesis that it contained only sixteen trumps is accordingly a real possibility. If so, then the trump sequence was of the same length as each of the suits; and this would give a simple reason why sixteen was chosen as the number of trumps. This suggests the faint possibility that, in Marziano's pack, too, each suit had both male and female court figures for each of the three ranks, making a total of 16 + 64 = 80 cards altogether.
I would agree that it is only a "faint possibility" that Marziano's pack had 80 cards. However it is nice to see that he contemplates the idea that the principle governing the length of the trump suit in the early tarot might have been to make it be "of the same length as each of the suits," so that the Cary-Yale (the Modrone, he calls it) would have sixteen trumps, as opposed to the twenty-five he had proposed in Game of Tarot. If so, a pack with 14 cards per suit would have had 14 trumps, following the same rule.

The other point is that he understands the problem about how the characteristics of the rows should be reflected somehow in the rules of the game: He writes of Marziano's gods (p. 74):
If they were trumps, their assignment to the suits is pointless; if they were superior court cards, their ranking among themselves is pointless. Of the two hypotheses, Signor Pratesi's, that they were trumps in our sense, seems the more probable. But there are other possibilities: for instance, that, when a King or pip card was led, the trick could be won by a god only if it was of that suit, but that, when a god was led, it could be beaten by any higher god. If this seems complicated, we should remember that evolution sometimes goes in the direction of simplicity; we should recall also the complicated rules about the trump suit in Karnoffel. This hypothesis would make Marziano's game ancestral to Tarot, but at a considerable remove.
I am not at all sure that Pratesi thought of the gods as trumps "in our sense"; he just says that they were trumps as well as extensions of the suits. The latter is not a characteristic of trumps "in our sense." But Dummett takes the issue further, into meaningful speculation. I do not defend the rule he suggests, but I do defend a modification of it. Take the example of how Cupid could capture Jupiter. If Doves were led, and someone out of Doves played Jupiter, it could be captured by someone who played Cupid, as long as someone else did not play Venus, Bacchus, or Ceres. But in that situation someone would only play Jupiter if he or she had no other triumphs, since it was sure to be lost. My modification of Dummett's proposal is that while the highest trump would take the trick, a card in the extension of the suit led would take priority over other trumps. In that way an inexperienced player might well play Jupiter, thinking to win the trick that way, only to be upended by someone playing Cupid. That would be more fun than with Dummett's rule.

On the other hand, it might have been that the rows only figured into the scoring, giving points to trumps only if the player had at least a certain number (e.g. 3) in the same row (including perhaps kings). But then Cupid couldn't capture Jupiter, and the last sentence of Marziano's text suggests that he can.

Re: From Marziano to the Cary-Yale and the Ludus Triumphorum

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MikeH wrote ...
What your chart comes to is that two of the three groups that are in the earliest tarot are also in Marziano, namely the four virtues and the six petrarchans. Another that might be there is the Wheel of Fortune, represented by the four gods corresponding to riches. However, some of them are a stretch of the imagination, such as Ceres for Death and Apollo representing a river. Your comparisons, if I may call them that, with the early tarot suggest more that Marziano had some inspiration from the early tarot than the reverse.
The PMB-14 has according my suggestion 6 Petrarca-Trionfi and 8 other motifs, but no "four virtues". Martiano suggests 4 virtues connected to Jupiter-Apollo-Mercury-Hercules. A 4x4-grid (used by Marziano) naturally fits well with a wheel of Fortune and its four directions, but Marziano doesn't use the picture

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Ceres is one of 6 children of Kronos and Rhea.

Zeus marries Hera ... they are paired. Results are Ares, Eileithya, Hebe and possibly Eris as twin-sister of Ares.

Poseidon raped Demeter ... they are paired. Results are Despoina with a horse-head and Arion, the horse. Without rape Demeter gets Persephone from Zeus. And she got sons of a mortal son of Zeus with the nymph Elektra, Iasion. Zeus killed Iasion with a thunderbolt cause of that. Iasion and Demeter had 2 or 3 sons. Iasion was the father of twin sons named Ploutos and Philomelus (twins), and another son named Corybas. Ploutus becomes the Pluto-name for Hades and the name means wealth and the Demeter-Iasion son became wealthy. Philomelus invented the chariot with oxen and the plough, and Demeter loved him for that. Also the Petrarca Trionfi painters.

Image
Image



Hades and Hestia are paired, cause neither they married or had a case of rape or had children on another mysterious way.

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In the 2nd column of the grid we have Apollo-Neptun-Diana-Bacchus. Neptun has much water, Bacchus has much wine. In both cases that's a liquid stuff. Apollo and Artemis however ...

Image


https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Delos,+ ... 915064!3e0
There is also much water.
In Greek mythology, Leto /ˈliːtoʊ/ (Greek: Λητώ Lētṓ; Λατώ, Lātṓ in Doric Greek) is the daughter of the Titans Coeus and Phoebe, the sister of Asteria. She is the mother of Apollo and Artemis.[1]
The island of Kos is claimed to be her birthplace. However, Diodorus, in 2.47 states clearly that Leto was born in Hyperborea and not in Kos.[2] In the Olympian scheme, Zeus is the father of her twins,[3] Apollo and Artemis, which Leto conceived after her hidden beauty accidentally caught the eye of Zeus. Classical Greek myths record little about Leto other than her pregnancy and search for a place where she could give birth to Apollo and Artemis, since Hera in her jealousy caused all lands to shun her. She eventually found an island that was not attached to the ocean floor, therefore it was not considered land and she could give birth.[4] Once Apollo and Artemis are grown, Leto withdraws, to remain a dim[5] and benevolent matronly figure upon Olympus, her part already played.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leto
Einst, wie der Mythos erzählt, war Delos eine schwimmende Insel auf dem Meer. Nur hier konnte die von Hera verfolgte und an der Niederkunft auf jederlei festem Boden gehinderte Leto niederkommen. Danach befestigte Poseidon (einer anderen Version nach Zeus) die Insel an vier diamantenen Säulen.
Leto gebar hier die Artemis und den Apollon (daher deren Beinamen Delia und Delios)
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delos
Asteria (altgriechisch Ἀστερία) ist eine Titanide der griechischen Mythologie.
In Hesiods Theogonie[1] und diesem nachfolgend bei späteren Mythographen[2][3] ist sie die Tochter des Titanen Koios und der Titanide Phoibe sowie die Schwester der Leto. Von Perses ist sie die Mutter der Hekate, wobei hier als Varianten auch die Väter Zeus[4] und Polus[3] überliefert sind. Nach Eudoxos von Knidos und Cicero ist sie zudem die Mutter des tyrischen Herakles,[5][6] Nonnos von Panopolis nennt sie als Tochter des Hyperion und als Gattin des Flussgottes Hydaspes.[7]
Der Mythos einer schwimmenden Insel, die anlässlich der Geburt des Apollon und der Artemis durch Leto von aus dem Meeresgrund heraufragenden Säulen getragen wird, ist bereits Pindar bekannt.[8] Ob die familiäre Beziehung von Leto und Asteria Pindar bekannt ist, ist unklar. Bei Kallimachos und diesem folgend in der Bibliotheke des Apollodor stürzt sich Asteria auf der Flucht vor Zeus ins Meer, um dort als schwimmende Insel umherzutreiben, bis sie sich Leto als Geburtsort anbietet.[9][10] Hyginus Mythographus berichtet als bekannteste Version des Mythos, dass Asteria von Zeus in eine Wachtel (ortyx) verwandelt und diese ins Meer gestürzt wird, da sie seine Annäherungen zurückweist. Aus ihr entsteht die schwimmende „Wachtelinsel“ Ortygia. Auf Anweisung Heras darf Asterias Schwester Leto nicht dort gebären, wo die Sonne hinscheint. Zugleich sendet sie Python aus, um Leto zu verfolgen. Zeus lässt Leto deshalb vom Windgott Boreas zu Poseidon bringen, der sie auf Ortygia bringt. Ortygia versinkt zur Geburt der Zwillinge im Meer und wird seit ihrem Wiederauftauchen Delos („die Sichtbare“) genannt.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asteria_( ... des_Koios)
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: From Marziano to the Cary-Yale and the Ludus Triumphorum

55
Huck wrote,
The PMB-14 has according my suggestion 6 Petrarca-Trionfi and 8 other motifs, but no "four virtues". Martiano suggests 4 virtues connected to Jupiter-Apollo-Mercury-Hercules. A 4x4-grid (used by Marziano) naturally fits well with a wheel of Fortune and its four directions, but Marziano doesn't use the picture.
On my hypothesis the four kings of the PMB would represent the four virtues: Swords is Justice (which has a sword), Batons is fortitude (which has a stick), Cups is temperance (which has cups), and Coins is Prudence (round like a hand-mirror). Anyway, the PMB isn't the only early tarocchi deck. The CY was earlier and surely had the four cardinal virtues. I wouldn't have thought that the PMB "first artist" cards were an example of the earliest form, in the sense that all its subjects, and only those subjects, were there at the beginning. I am especially dubious about the Bagatella. Unlike fools, I don't know of anyone like the PMB Bagatella in any earlier deck of cards, or even visual art, for that matter.

When you cite myths about the gods, it is important that they be myths that Marziano would have known about, even better, ones that he mentions. Wikipedia isn't enough. I don't see how he would have known Diodorus, for example.

Well, it's nice to know that it is possible to get to Delos by car these days. In my day there was just a passenger ferry, and it only went a couple of times a day. It may have been a fisherman, I don't remember. The island is only a mile around, with nothing on it but some interesting but unspectacular ruins. In its day, it lived off the slave trade. Well, I wouldn't rely on Google to get me there. Maybe if I were a god. If it's not attached to the ocean floor, I suppose I could just drag it to the ferry dock and drive onto it. But it seemed pretty solid to me.

Re: From Marziano to the Cary-Yale and the Ludus Triumphorum

56
mikeh wrote: 23 Jun 2021, 12:01 On my hypothesis the four kings of the PMB would represent the four virtues: Swords is Justice (which has a sword), Batons is fortitude (which has a stick), Cups is temperance (which has cups), and Coins is Prudence (round like a hand-mirror). Anyway, the PMB isn't the only early tarocchi deck. The CY was earlier and surely had the four cardinal virtues. I wouldn't have thought that the PMB "first artist" cards were an example of the earliest form, in the sense that all its subjects, and only those subjects, were there at the beginning. I am especially dubious about the Bagatella. Unlike fools, I don't know of anyone like the PMB Bagatella in any earlier deck of cards, or even visual art, for that matter.
I remember children-of-the-moon pictures with Bagatella, and I think, in astrology texts it might have existed before 1440 or 1452. But that's a vague memory on my side. Marco Ponzi was active in this topic, I remember. Here's a German dissertation to the theme ..
DIE MACHT DER STERNE
Planetenkinder: ein astrologisches Bildmotiv in Spätmittelalter und Renaissance
Dissertation by Annett Klingner (2017), 322 pages
https://edoc.hu-berlin.de/bitstream/han ... annett.pdf
We persecute the development of a name for a type of card decks and the name is "Trionfi" ... second to this we've growing interest in a poetical work of Petrarca
with the name "Trionfi" at the same or at least similar time (c1440/41), and we're curious, if there is a causal relation between the both different developments. Additionally we observe a growing number of Trionfi-festivities and Trionfi picture use in general art, all at the same or a similar time. Our object is called "Trionfi cards", not "Virtue cards". It's clear, that the Cary-Yale and other early Trionfi cards used Virtue cards in its program, but that doesn't mean, that PMB-14 or other Trionfi card versions MUST have had also Virtue cards.

All what we know, it might be, that the name "Trionfi" for a card deck formed in Florence. The Cary-Yale (c.1441) was made in Milan/Cremona, not in Florence. The relations Florence-Milan were hostile then.
In the time of PMB-14 (1452) the relations between the new ruler of Milan, Francesco Sforza, and the Florentine leader Cosimo di Medici were friendly. Perhaps this tells us a little bit.

Something with Trionfi cards had happened 1440-1444. Then a pause occurred, possibly connected to some prohibition in Florence.
In 1449 Trionfi cards reappear. There is a production noted in Florence, accompanied by a political situation, when it was believed in Milan, that peace had returned (end of 1449). Sforza interrupted this idea, and conquered Milan in early 1450. The situation was welcomed in Florence and Ferrara. Florence allowed the game of Trionfi (December) and then the big production and big business could start.
In Ferrara we observed, that in March 1450 the Signore Leonello ordered in some haste a Trionfi card production. It looks, as if this was a production to congratulate in Milan, cause Leonello went to Milan to the Sforza celebrations the same month.
Sforza wrote in December 1450 a letter, according which he had problems to get a Trionfi deck, probably he needed this for the Christmas celebrations.

According this one may assume, that the impulse to make Trionfi decks in Milan came from Florence or Ferrara and not from Sforza himself. We find 5x14 cards in Milan (1452) and 70 cards in Ferrara (1457).
When you cite myths about the gods, it is important that they be myths that Marziano would have known about, even better, ones that he mentions. Wikipedia isn't enough. I don't see how he would have known Diodorus, for example.
The argument was about the point, that Apollo/Artemis had some water connection. I think, one needn't Diodorus to recognize that.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: From Marziano to the Cary-Yale and the Ludus Triumphorum

57
Huck wrote
The argument was about the point, that Apollo/Artemis had some water connection. I think, one needn't Diodorus to recognize that.
I was replying to your comment:
However, Diodorus, in 2.47 states clearly that Leto was born in Hyperborea and not in Kos.[2]
and the rest of what you said, where you did not specify the sources of the Greek myths you recount. There is no need to include comments from Diodorus, and the other sources need to be carefully sorted according to whether they were works known in the Latin west before the great influx of Greek manuscripts.
I do not challenge that Delos was known as the birthplace of Apollo and Artemis, and that it was an island. But something like that, essential to your argument, needs verification in terms of sources that can be assumed known to Marziano.

Huck wrote,
I remember children-of-the-moon pictures with Bagatella, and I think, in astrology texts it might have existed before 1440 or 1452. But that's a vague memory on my side. Marco Ponzi was active in this topic, I remember. Here's a German dissertation to the theme ..
That is too lazy of a reply. In other words, you have no idea. All I can say is that I know of nothing verifiably from before 1460, the de Predis picture in Milan. There is another that "might" be as early as 1430, but also "might" be 1480. viewtopic.php?f=23&t=384&start=100#p13799, from Wurttumberg. (I am too lazy to put the umlaut in.) As for the ph.d. dissertation, I see no pictures, Italian search terms produce nothing. "Taschenspieler" produces three occurrences, but it doesn't look to me that they are any earlier than 1460. German is your language. If you find something associating a taschenspieler or some other word for him in that dissertation, I would very much like to know. It is much easier for you than for me.

Re: From Marziano to the Cary-Yale and the Ludus Triumphorum

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To the bateleur question ...
In 2010 Robert observed ...
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=384&start=10#p6045
Here's a colour version of an image also found on Adam Mcleans's site, which describes it as "Joseph of Ulm. Manuscript painting 1404. Now in University of Tübingen Library. Possibly the earliest example of this emblem form.":

Image

So, there's our bateleur in 1404, cups and balls on table
The image is gone now ....

******************

This was corrected by myself a year later (2011)
Image
This image at http://stepanov.lk.net/magic/milbourn/01.html is given with description ...
Joseph of Ulm included a cups and balls conjuror
in his 1404 drawing which showed the influences
of the moon. His astrological manuscript is preserved
in the Tuebingen University library in Germany.
1404 sounds "rather early" for children of planets, I would assume ... but I see, we had it already

http://www.jannesdegoochelaar.nl/media/ ... of_ulm.jpg

Ah, I see Adam McLean stating "Possibly the earliest example of this emblem form."

I find here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=e51y17 ... &q&f=false
Planetenkinder
Aus dem kalendarischen Hausbuch des Meister Joseph aus dem Kloster Güterstein bei Um, um 1475
Tübingen, Universitätsbibliok, Cod. M. d. 2
c. 1475 ... not 1404, according this statement
Planets (Mercury): [Ms Tübingen UB M d 2] German (Carthusian Monastery Güterstein, near Ulm?), ca.1475. The Children of Mercury, from an astrological manuscript. Tübingen UB Ms M.d.2, fol. 271. manuscript illumination. Includes an organ builder with positive and portative organs and a clock maker with a clock with a clapper bell. (D. Blume. Regenten des Himmels ... Berlin 200l. Taf. 40 [fine color reproduction] as ca.1475, as bound in the Carthusian Monastery of Güterstein and probably written there by an unknown Meister Joseph. Refers to it as the "Kalendarisches Hausbuch des Meister Joseph."; Hauber Planetenkinderbilder. Abb. 41, as Ulm, 1404)

http://www.unh.edu/music/Icon/ibelhs.htm
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=384&start=100#p10839

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Ross improved this later (2013) ...
Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote: 01 Apr 2013, 17:43 The Tübingen Hausbuch, with the Children of Luna picture that Huck posted at the top of this thread, is downloadable in PDF (in color!) at Tübingen University -
http://idb.ub.uni-tuebingen.de/diglit/Md2
(181 megs)
Image
(folio 272r)

The library gives a range of production dates from 1430 to 1480, in Württemberg.
http://swb2.bsz-bw.de/DB=2.312/SET=3/PP ... 97.31.8,FY

(it would seem the old "1404" date has been firmly rejected)
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=384&start=100#p13799
Huck
http://trionfi.com