Yes. It was the start of the idea, that all 6 Petrarca-Trionfi might have been in the oldest Trionfi decks. I repeat the link for future readers ...mikeh wrote: 16 Jun 2021, 02:04 Thanks. That was a good post that you linked to.
There is a line of development, in which Fame has a high rank, the best is Minchiate, where it the highest trump. Another later line of development has Fama solis at trump 14, something. which is seen in the Vievil version around 1650, but earlier already with the Alciato poem (discussion "Fame riddle" viewtopic.php?f=11&t=747&hilit=Alciato ).I am still not sure where Fame fits into the sequence. If it is not Justice, it might not be 8th. It could be next to last, the same as Fame in the Cary-Yale.
So Bagat, Popess, Empress, Emperor, Pope, Love, Chariot, Wheel, Old Man, Hanged Man, Death, Fame, Angel.
In the case of PMB-1 we have a commissioner Sforza, who got his fame as a knight-condottiero in the background of a female Justice (Bianca Maria as a legal heir of the Milanese throne). The year of the work is assumed to have been 1452, the year, in which Habsburg emperor Friedrich III didn't accept Sforza as legal duke of Milan. As a revenge Sforza let the emperor card painted as the earlier Luxembourg emperor Sigismondo, which caused then a special interest of the condottiero Sigismondo Malatesta just in this deck.
The idea of Franco Pratesi was, that , if the name "Trionfi cards" indeed developed from the Trionfi poem of Petrarca, that there should have been a Trionfi deck version, in which all 6 Petrarca trumps were considered. We know, that the later Tarot development did forget about this (assumed) earlier context, but the PMB-1, from which we know, that it was definitely an old version, might have been part of this (assumed) tradition.
We have reason to think, that the Trionfi name for playing cards developed from the Florentine acceptance of Petrarca as a "Florentine poet" (one of 3 crowns, Boccaccio, Dante + Petrarca), at least in 1440. Petrarca was earlier accepted and honored in Padova and Milan, locations, in which Petrarca had really lived and worked in his life.
Filippo Maria Visconti didn't love Florence, and likely he also didn't love, that the Milanese poet Petrarca with all his fame and other goods was redefined to a Florentine poet. Filippo arranged another deck (Cary-Yale), which included all 7 virtues (so much we can assume safely), virtues, which we don't find in the Milanese Sforza deck of PMB-1. Sforza and Cosimo Medici had buried the earlier trouble between Milan and Florence and acted in political agreement since 1450. One of the political measures was possibly the official allowance of the Trionfi game in Florence in December 1450.
Burchiello, the poet, who was thrown out of Florence by the Medici, made a poem, in which the words minchiattar and triumphi appear together. The poem is said to have been produced c1440. It looks like a satire on the new trionfi fashion. Possibly the enlargement of the number of the Trionfi motifs was ironical captured in the negative terminus Minchiate and degraded, and it meant a mockery of the very much motifs at other locations.
See ... http://trionfi.com/0/f/11/I have no idea why you put the Fool as number 11. I know that 11 was considered the number of sin. But that is not enough to put him there.
Carneval has the starting day 11th November, 11.11. at 11.11 o'clock A Karnevalsverein in Kleve in the year 1331 had the Karnevals call "ey, lustig, fröhlich", which in short makes "e-l-f"="elf" and elf means "eleven" in English.Fool-Stupidity 11 (0) .... and ...
note, that 11 (Fool) was changed to 0, and 14 Angel was changed to 20,
probably by Bembo or a contemporary cause he didn't like
but prefered, probably cause of practical reasons (easier counting in card playing)
0+1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10 + 12+13 + 20 = 100
Count Adolph III of the Marck in 1380 founded a foolish knight order at November 12 in 1380, likely related to 11.11.1380.
compare ... viewtopic.php?f=12&t=694&p=10218&hilit=cleve#p10218 ... a talk, that we had in the year 2011
Recently we had, that the council elected pope Martin at the Martinsday, which was 11.11.1417
Further we have, that in the Liechtenstein cards fragment (16 cards, earlier given to 1440-1450) there are 5 suits and the Unter of cups is a urinating male fool and the Un ter of batons is a baton-riding nude woman and the Unter had in the John-of-Rheinfelden system the value 11. If the dating 1440-50 would be correct, this Fool would be the oldest, that we have as a playing card.
Normal counting is according the row 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10 - etc., not 0-1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-etc.. For the Fool in the Sola Busca, which has the first zero on a playing card, we have ...
MATO with ".0."
VENTURIO with ".X.", not with "10"
... and NENBROTO with ".XX.", not with "20"
In some Tarocchi versions scoring bonus points for card combinations is a feature, but not in all. Such card games are rare in Germany, I know it only from the game Cologne game "Klammern", which actually is a variant of the Dutch game Klaverjas.I also am not sure how "groups" should be defined. In the game, all I can think of is scoring combinations. So we have the Fool, the Bagatello, and the Angel as one group, perhaps the four "papi" as another group. In Bologna they counted as a scoring group.
I suppose the ones in the middle could divide 4-3, or 3-4, as well. Or it could go by columns in a grid, but in that case with 14, the end columns would have 4 and the middle ones 3, or else the Bagat and Fool would be wild cards, as in the Bolognese game. But there is no suggestion in Marziano or the later scoring of any of these last groupings.
The 2-3-4-5-group definitely appears in Karnöffel. 10 (as tens) and 11 (as aces) are very important in the German counting system. In some games 1 (as Ace) is counted one point, not 11 points.
Well, we all recognize, that the columns 1-2-3 contains 4x3=12 Olympian gods and that the last column has no Olympian gods. Did Marziano tell you, that these 12 gods are Olympian gods? No, he didn't. Does this mean, that the game designer didn't know, that these 12 gods are Olympian gods? Just by accident he collected there 12 Olympian gods? Well, this "Martiano didn't tell us" doesn't save this position. It's a fact, that Martiano had for his 16 places a specific figure and likely Martiano had specific ideas, why he offered just this order of the gods and no other order.On the other hand, "groups" might be defined as in Marziano, scoring by rows in a grid. There would be four groups, one for each suit, composed of every fourth card, maybe adding the king of the corresponding suit. One group might be Popess, Love, Hanged Man, Cups. The Love group, or the story of Pope Joan or Manfreda. Another, Empress, Pudicitia, Death, Coins. The Pudicitia group, or the story of Laura. Then Emperor, Wheel, Fame, Swords. The Wheel group, or the fall of Princes. Then Pope, Old Man (Time), Angel, Batons. The Angel group, or the story of salvation. Or some such thing. Bagatella and Fool again as wild cards
Do you see your "groups" in terms of scoring combinations, or just as conceptual schemes in building the sequence? Either way, it still seems to me strained and anachronistic to fit Petrarch to Marziano's demigods and two other columns. That schema fits only part of the PMB and part of Marziano, and in two very different ways, in the first as defining part of a sequences, in the second as defining two of the columns, and the demigods. Marziano emphasized whole rows, and columns not at all.