Re: Collection "nec spe, nec metu"

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Depaulis ....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rX_vnUxmnJg
LE TAROT À MILAN
Vrai ou faux ? Copies et imitations des tarots Visconti
par Thierry Depaulis (Paris)

Écartés de la présente exposition, des "copies" ou plutôt "imitations" des tarots viscontéens existent ici et là. On recense environ 80 cartes, représentant une douzaine de jeux, majoritairement conservés dans des collections privées, pour la plupart peu accessibles voire perdues de vue. Seules institutions publiques à détenir de telles "copies", le Museo Fournier de Naipes de Álava à Vitoria (6 cartes), le Victoria & Albert Museum de Londres (4 cartes), la Worshipful Company of Makers of Playing Cards (4 cartes, en dépôt aux London Metropolitan Archives) et le Musée des Beaux-Arts de Montréal (2 cartes). La quasi totalité de ces cartes sont des copies du seul tarot Colleoni. On ne connaît en effet aucune réplique faite à partir des tarots Visconti di Modrone ou Brambilla. Tenues depuis 1954 pour des répliques anciennes, jugées par conséquent « authentiques », aussi bien par Klein que par Kaplan et Dummett, ces cartes intirguent car elles sont des copies « fidèles » (Klein) mais de qualité inférieure. Elles présentent aussi des particularités de facture (p. ex. l’association de vélin sur papier) et leur historique est souvent flou. On se propose ici de présenter quelques-unes de ces cartes et de les commenter.
automatic translation
Discarded from this exhibition, "copies" or rather "imitations" of Viscontean tarots exist here and there. There are approximately 80 cards, representing a dozen games, mostly kept in private collections, most of which are not easily accessible or even lost sight of. The only public institutions to hold such "copies", the Museo Fournier de Naipes de Álava in Vitoria (6 cards), the Victoria & Albert Museum in London (4 cards), the Worshipful Company of Makers of Playing Cards (4 cards, in deposit at the London Metropolitan Archives) and the Montreal Museum of Fine Arts (2 cards). Almost all of these cards are copies of the Colleoni tarot alone. We do not know of any replica made from the Visconti di Modrone or Brambilla tarots. Held since 1954 as old replicas, therefore deemed “authentic”, both by Klein and by Kaplan and Dummett, these maps are intriguing because they are “faithful” (Klein) copies but of inferior quality. They also present particularities of craftsmanship (eg the association of vellum on paper) and their history is often unclear. We propose here to present some of these maps and to comment on them.
Too difficult for my poor French ....
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Collection "nec spe, nec metu"

24
Thanks. Nothing about the V&A's being "forgeries" or even 19th century. Yes, it is the Rosenthal that has post-1885 (as I recalled) pigments. That has been called attention to on this forum several times (e.g. me at viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2630&p=25499&hilit ... hal#p25499, citing Depaulis). The V&A Ace of Cups is similar to the Rosenthal, but that doesn't mean that the V&A is 19th century, too, although it might be. Even of the Rosenthal, Depaulis did not use the word "forgery," as it might be a copy of something now lost.

What I was mostly objecting to was associating the card with Isabella d'Este as opposed to Colleoni. It is true that Isabella's sister was married to "Il Moro", so there is a family connection. But there is a family connection to Colleoni, too, and it is the Colleoni coat of arms and the Malpaga frescoes that suggest him, if the card is authentically 15th or even 16th century. Why would Isabella want Colleoni's arms on the card?

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There are good reasons to be suspicious, it seems. Particularly the use of parchment, which none of the authentic 15th century cards do.

There is also something he pointed out - I'll go back and watch again after lunch - how some of these sets copied only those Colleoni cards in the United States, not the ones in Bergamo. This would put their creation in the 20th century.

Re: Collection "nec spe, nec metu"

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It's important to be specific about what set you are talking about. Which cards are on parchment? The V&A for its cards just says "card." Which cards are copies of Colleoni (i.e. PMB) cards only in the U.S.? Of the V&A cards, the only one that is a copy, more or less, of a PMB (i.e. Colleoni) is the Page of Coins, and its PMB version is in Bergamo. The V&A Star card is somewhat similar to the PMB Star, and it is in Bergamo, too. The V&A Death and Ace of Cups aren't similar to their PMB equivalents.

For any readers not familiar with our terminology: the "Colleoni" (Depaulis's usage in the 2022 video) who once owned some of the PMB cards is different from the 15th century Francesco Colleoni who might be associated with the V&A cards.

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Yes, thanks for the correction. Some people call the set the "Colleoni", and others the "Colleoni-Baglioni." We call it the PMB. At one time Colleoni owned only some of the cards (hence "-Baglioni"). Before that, he owned all of them, as you say. My memory was hazy on who owned the cards Baglioni possessed before him. The point remains that none of the cards that at one time were owned by Colleoni and ended up in New York bear any resemblance to the V&A cards.

Re: Collection "nec spe, nec metu"

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The Valet of Coins does. Thierry discusses it, how the imitator must have copied the already degraded Colleoni version on the left stocking.

I.e. the imitator interpreted the discoloration as a real feature, when it looks merely like the loss of paint there.

Just looked at the video, it is around the 15 minute. The Valet of Coins is in Bergamo. So the V&A cards must be a European production.

So you are right, it's not the part of the PMB in the USA.