Re: Trionfi card poem by Pico de Mirandola

31
"fura", "furato", "furar" in sonetti 14,15,22,33 is a riddle to me ...

portuguese https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/furar points to Italian "forare"
italian https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/forare#Italian

German article https://de.wiktionary.org/wiki/furar , contains the interpretation "entjungfern" (Brazilian)

(my stupid idea) .... could it be, that this word has a relation to "furia" ?
some sonetti numbers relate (possibly) to Minchiate trumps .... trumps 14 and 15 are very bad trumps (devil and tower)

I saw, that Ariost used the word "fura" occasionally

***********

I've arranged a sort of wordbook of the words in the 45 sonetti. The number tell, how often a word appears.
http://a.trionfi.eu/p/atest5.txt

abaglia,1,0.02 ....... means, that "abaglia" appears once in the 45 sonetti .... 0.02% of all words

search for alma leads to ..
--------------------------
alma,3,0.07
almanco,1,0.02
l’alma,9,0.20 = l'alma
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Trionfi card poem by Pico de Mirandola

32
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/furare

seems to fit the context (at http://a.trionfi.eu/p/atest.txt). The third person present indicative would be "fura," and so on. You have to try more than just "fura": wiktionary gives you a bunch of things to click on, at least it does for me, and one, furare, is to an Italian word. Then you get more choices, and you have to see what fits the context best. That's caught me up, too, I mean, not trying what else Wiktionary gives you in the menu. Often wiktionary will give you all the inflected forms, too; but in this case it doesn't.

For these questions it would be good to consult the French translations, too (whether they are online I don't know).

Re: Trionfi card poem by Pico de Mirandola

33
mikeh wrote: 08 Aug 2022, 02:02
Se agli ochi porta un bianco velo avincto,
come sì certe manda le sue face,
per cui l’aflicto cor, che se disfece,
consumar vegio a morte e quasi extincto?

[If he wears a white veil to his eyes,
how so sure she sends his faces,
for which the aflicto cor, which if undone,
consume vegio to death and almost extincto?]
If he wears a white veil bound to his eyes,
how does he send his torches so surely,
by which the afflicted heart is undone,
to consume the old one [?] to death and almost extinguishing [it]?

Or something like that. I assume that "torches" means flaming arrows. The precise meaning of the last two lines elude me.
I read it as something like:

If he wears a white blindfold over his eyes,
how does he fire his flames so surely,
wherefore the afflicted heart, which is undone,
I see burn to death and almost extinguished?

The last line is hard to make sense of I suspect because it is bad poetry, being rhyme and rhythm driven. He needs to fill out the line to fill out the meter and with a rhyme for avincto [extincto]. Clarity of sense has been somewhat sacrificed in favour of sound, he needs the filler to meet the poetic device.
MikeH wrote:
For these questions it would be good to consult the French translations, too (whether they are online I don't know).
There are 12 of his sonnets, including the above one, translated by Françoise Graziani Director of the Corsican Language at the "Collectivité Territoriale de corse", Professor of Comparative Literature the University of Corsica and Assoiciate Director of the University of Paris online here:

https://fr.readkong.com/page/douze-sonn ... le-5376394
mikeh wrote: 07 Aug 2022, 12:36 The Francesco then might well be Francesco II Gonzaga, who ruled Mantua from 1484. If so, it would seem addressed to him considerably before his marriage to Isabella in 1490.
Mirandola's poetry, it's themes, devices and structure, are like so many of the youthful poets of his day modelled after Petrarch. If I am reading it right, Graziani in the introduction to the translations identifies 'Francesco' with Francesco Petrarch, "the first and only one to enter into the Apollonian dance". ["Et derrière Pétrarque, "le premier, le seul à entrer dans la danse apollinienne", il y a Dante.]

Re: Trionfi card poem by Pico de Mirandola

34
:-) ... :-) ...:-) .... I'm enjoyed, that you found some interest. My Italian is not good enough for this collection.

My impressions of the 45 sonnets go in the direction, that the author attempted to describe a sort of Minchiate with 45 elements (sonetti). The normal Minchiate has 40 trumps + 1 Fool, totally 41 figures. The author of the collection adds (possibly) 4 figures. In the collection it seems, as if he occasionally relates Minchaite number objects to the same numbers in the sonetti, at least in the first half of the order "22 sonetti (1-22) + Sonetto 23 + 22 sonetti (24-45)"

Sonetto 13 seems to relate to Minchiate 13, Death
Sonetto 5 seems to relate to Minchiate 5, Love
Sonetto 16 seems to relate to Minchiate 16, Hope and this in very specific way

I give this latter as an example ....
Sonetto 16
Ecco doppo la nebia el cel sereno
che invita li uccelletti andare a schera;
ecco la luce che resplende ove era
di caligine opaca dianci pieno.

Afligice mo, Invidia, aspro veneno
a cui t’alberga! abassa la tua altera
testa, ché chiunque alfine in Dio non spera,
presto ne veni ogni sua forza al meno!

Carità cun Iustizia e intera Fede,
che sempre furno a me fide compagne,
secur mi fan de chi fra via m’assale;

e mentre el cor, ch’è in me, da lor se vede
acompagnato andar, poco gli cale
di che altrui rida, o di che alcun si lagne.
The automatic translation gives
Sonnet 16

Here is after the fog and the clear sky
who invites the little birds to go joking;
here is the light that shines where it was
full of opaque haze.

Afligice mo, Envy, bitter veneno
to which he takes care of you! lower your haughtiness
head, because whoever finally does not hope in God,
soon all strength of him will come at least!

Charity with Justice and entire Faith,
who always were faithful companions to me,
secur they make me of who between via me assale;

and while el cor, which is in me, he sees from them
accompanied to go, little hauls
what others laugh at, or what some complain about.
We have here noted 3 theological virtues (Spes, Fides, Caritas) and 2 cardinal virtues (Fortitudo, Iustititia).
In the usual modern Minchiate we have the row "16 Hope - 17 Prudentia - 18 Faith - 19 Charity".
Minchiate 16 is a break of the standard Trionfi system, the trumps 16-35 contain titles, which are foreign to the normal Trionfi sequences.

In the 45 sonetti: Iustitia appears only in sonetto 16. Prudentia appears only in Sonetto 11. Forza-Forze-Sforzi appears in the sonetti 8-11-16-22-25-31-43.

In Minchiate Justice gets the 8, Prudentia gets 17 and Forza gets 7. The word "Tempre", which is possibly Temperance in the poem, appears in sonetto 19 and in the Minchiate 6.

The row of the exclamation signs goes 4,9,13,13,13,15,16,16,17,18,18,19,44
4 = 2*2, 9 = 3*3, 4+9 =13 (3 exclamation signs)
15,16,16,17,18,18,19, ... unbroken row of exciting exclamation marks

Perhaps the author wants to show the reader his personal intensity on these themes. Pico della Mirandola has in 1486 the age of 23 and the structure of the poem has a clear focus on sonetto 23. Perhaps Pico used associations to "life years". Sonetto 1 looks, as if the theme relates to the role of a babe, the word Madonna is used there. In Sonetto 10 he uses the word Fanciul (child, fanciul appears also in 23), possibly relating to the life of a 10-years-old. From this perspective the years

Sonetto 17 .... Prudentia in Minchiate ????
Che fai, alma? che pensi? Ragion, desta
lo spirto, ché la voglia è già trascorsa
là dove ogni salute nostra è in forsa,
se la diffesa tua non sarà presta;

aluma el core; el penser vago aresta;
così fa’ el senso, che punto lo smorsa.
O scogli, o mar falace, ove era corsa
la debil barca mia in sì atra tempesta!

Da ora inanci fia più l’ochio interno
acorto; ogni desir men bono è spento;
la mente accesa al ben, presta e gagliarda.

E se puncto te offesi, o Patre eterno,
perdoname, sì come io me ne pento:
sai che da’ primi assalti om mal si guarda.
automatic translation
What are you doing, alma? what do you think? Reason, wake up
the spirit, because the desire has already passed
where all our health is in force,
if your defense is not lent;

aluma el core; el penser vago aresta;
so does the sense, what a point it smells.
O rocks, o falace sea, where she had run
my weak boat in such a terrible storm!

From now on, the inner eye is more active
short; every desir men bono is extinguished;
the mind turned on to the well, lend and vigorous.

And if I puncti you offended, O eternal Patre,
forgive me, yes as I regret it:
you know that from the first attacks om you look badly.
There are various words, which associate mental operations and Prudentia ... think, reason, spirit, inner eye, mind

Sonetto 18 ... Faith in Minchiate 18
Lasso, che un’altra face el cor m’enfiamma,
che gli ardenti desiri ivi rinova
e l’antiquo pensier, nel qual si cova
el foco che me struge a dramma a dramma.

Felici anni nei quai chiamava mamma;
longi dal mal in cor l’alma si trova!
Pietà di me, Signor, tu che per prova
intendi qual è Amor, qual la sua fiamma!

E se talor con la mia donna parli,
per cui tuo fido amico andar si vede
privo del cor, de libertà e di pace,

piaciati noto apertamente farli
qual son gli affanni miei, qual è la fede,
quanto una mente altera a Dio dispiace.
"fede" means Faith. "fede" is not rare, it appears in the sonetti 8,16,18,20,27,29,34,38,39. There is another interesting word "mamma". The mother of Pico della Mirandola died "1487", a specific date is not known and not the reason. Sonetto 18 is a specific place.
Sonetto 5 ... 5 places distance to the begin of the sonnets ... contains the words amor, timor, speranza,
Sonetto 18 ... 5 places distance to sonetto 23 ... contains the words mamma and fede, none of the 4 stoic passions
Sonetto 28 ... 5 places distance to sonetto 23 ... contains the words triunfi, amor, gelosia
Sonetto 41 ... 5 places distance to the end of the sonnets

01 02 03 04 [05] 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 [18] 19 20 21 22
......................................................... [23] .......................................................
24 25 26 27 [28] 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 [41] 42 43 44 45

Sonetto 19 .... Caritas in Minchiate 19

Caritas appears in 34
E mentre e’ mie’ passati error pensando
men vo, fermo nel cor l’alte radice
de Carità, di Fede e di Speranza.
Caritas appears in 16 ... as already shown
Afligice mo, Invidia, aspro veneno
a cui t’alberga! abassa la tua altera
testa, ché chiunque alfine in Dio non spera,
presto ne veni ogni sua forza al meno!

Carità cun Iustizia e intera Fede,
che sempre furno a me fide compagne,
secur mi fan de chi fra via m’assale;
Caritas appears NOT in Sonetto 19
Sonetto 19
Che bisogna che più nel mar si raspe,
fra tante frode e fra sì falsi inganni?
Parca, depone el fin a tanti affanni,
qual si sia quella che ‘l mio fato inaspe!

Da l’erculëo freto al fiume Idaspe
si sa como abia perso i mei verdi anni
in adorar colei, che nei mei danni
si gloria, a mie pregher’ sorda qual aspe.

Sino gli ucelli, i fiummi, i monti e campi
san como suspirando si distempre
il pecto stanco e como il cor avampi;

san como Amor e in che diverse tempre
senza pietà me incenda con doi lampi:
donque meglio è morir che languir sempre.
automatic translation
That it must be rasped more in the sea,
amid so many frauds and such false deceptions?
Parca, lays el fin to so many worries,
what is the one that 'my fate inaspe!

From l'erculëo freto to the Idaspe river
you know how I lost my green years
in adoring her, who in my damage
glory, to me I will pray deaf aspe.

Even the birds, the rivers, the mountains and fields
san como suspirando is always distracted
pecto tired and como cor avampi;

san como Amor and in what different tempers
mercilessly set me on fire with lightning:
however, it is better to die than to languish forever.
"l’erculëo freto al fiume Idaspe" possibly refers to ..... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Hydaspes

About distempre and tempre I assume, that this relates to the virtue Temperantia. I don't feel totally sure about it. Tempre appears also in the sonetti 24 and 43

With that all 7 virtues appeared in the discussion of sonetto 16 till sonetto 19.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Trionfi card poem by Pico de Mirandola

35
Huck posted while I was working on this question for Steve.

SteveM wrote,
There are 12 of his sonnets, including the above one, translated by Françoise Graziani Director of the Corsican Language at the "Collectivité Territoriale de corse", Professor of Comparative Literature the University of Corsica and Assoiciate Director of the University of Paris online here:

https://fr.readkong.com/page/douze-sonn ... le-5376394
mikeh wrote: 07 Aug 2022, 12:36 The Francesco then might well be Francesco II Gonzaga, who ruled Mantua from 1484. If so, it would seem addressed to him considerably before his marriage to Isabella in 1490.
Mirandola's poetry, it's themes, devices and structure, are like so many of the youthful poets of his day modelled after Petrarch. If I am reading it right, Graziani in the introduction to the translations identifies 'Francesco' with Francesco Petrarch, "the first and only one to enter into the Apollonian dance". ["Et derrière Pétrarque, "le premier, le seul à entrer dans la danse apollinienne", il y a Dante.]
Very nice, Steve.

A remaining mystery is the concluding tercet of sonnet 23 as a whole, with the word "ludo" that fascinates Huck:
Dimel, ti prego, o singular e raro
Francesco, onor de l’acidalio ludo
e primo e sol ne l’apollineo ballo.
which Graziani translates as:
Dis-le-moi, François, je t’en prie, ô toi
si rare et singulier poète, honneur de la source Acidalie,
toi le premier, le seul à entrer dans la danse apollinienne.
In English:

Tell me, Francesco, please, oh you
so rare and singular poet, honor of the Acidalian spring,
you the first, the only one to enter the Apollonian dance.

She seems either to ignore "ludo" altogether, or translate it as "source", i.e. spring. The latter seems erroneous and not her intention. Rather, she decided simply not to translate "ludo." "Acidalian game" in the sense of "Venus's game" but with a possible allusion to Actaeon, would seem a more accurate translation of those words.

Re: Trionfi card poem by Pico de Mirandola

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Ludo is a single word, it appears only in 23.
It inspired me to look for the word gioco. It appears in the sonetti 8 and 31, in harmony to sonetto 23 (31-8 = 23).
Further I found a gioca palla ... a game with a ball it seems. In 45 at the remarkable final Sonetto.
So I looked at the first Sonetto and found there a Giova. Another Giova is in the mysterious Sonetto 42. I'm not sure, what Giova shall mean.

45*14 = 630 lines, but Sonetto 42 has 10 lines more (very short lines). So there are 640 lines. "64" is a very special number in the Kabbala context, perhaps a reason for Pico to give Sonetto 42 the 10 lines more.

Petrarca looks good as Francesco in Sonetto 23.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Trionfi card poem by Pico de Mirandola

37
Huck wrote,
Sonetto 13 seems to relate to Minchiate 13, Death
Sonetto 5 seems to relate to Minchiate 5, Love
Sonetto 16 seems to relate to Minchiate 16, Hope and this in very specific way
As far as isolated words, "morto" or "morte" does not appear in sonnet 13. There is only one line that relates to death. Mostly it is about the world.

"Morto" or "morte" does appear in sonnets 1, 2, 3, 10, 15, 23, 25, 31, and 32.

As you have already said, many of the poems have to do with love. But 5 is special in that nearly every line begins with "Amor". That is in your favor.

Hope is mentioned in 5, 8 (with faith and strength), 13 (both beginning and end), 15, 16 (with strength, faith, charity and justice), 20, and 34 (with faith and charity).

In minchiate trump 23 is Air, a word not in the sonnet. Well, I suppose wings and arrows fly in the air. It remains to be seen how many other of the poems relate to air in a similar circumstantial way.

About prudence. "Mente," mind, appears in 4, 8, 11, 17, and 18. "Ragion" or "ragione" in 7, 17, 28, and 41.

Forza is in 8, 16, 22, and 25.

I do not find Temperance. "Tempre" is in 19, 24, and 42.

"Iusticia" is just the once, in 16. "iusto" is in 32 and 38.

For "giova":

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/giovare#Italian

Re: Trionfi card poem by Pico de Mirandola

38
mikeh wrote: 09 Aug 2022, 22:14 She seems either to ignore "ludo" altogether, or translate it as "source", i.e. spring. The latter seems erroneous and not her intention. Rather, she decided simply not to translate "ludo." "Acidalian game" in the sense of "Venus's game" but with a possible allusion to Actaeon, would seem a more accurate translation of those words.
Yes,I noticed that too and would be interested in the reasoning behind it (I assume it is an intentional decision). There is also the addition of a poet, which might be justifiable for clarity's sake with the identification of Francesco as Petrarch, but maybe it might be better to just note it than incorporate it into the body of the poem itself.

His nephew and biographer Francesco Pico de Mirandola also references Acidalie in one of his own poems, in which the identity with Venus is clear even to those who may not be familiar with the epithet through the relationship with Cupid:

Et gemis euulsas alas, pharetrate Cupido
Horridus in gremio matris Acidalie.


And with moaning wings, quivered Cupid
Bristled in the bosom of his mother Acidalia.

Re: Trionfi card poem by Pico de Mirandola

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Huck wrote: 09 Aug 2022, 04:13 "fura", "furato", "furar" in sonetti 14,15,22,33 is a riddle to me ...
14
Gemina el sguardo, e non sera’ im periglio:
fura nel primo, e nel secondo rende.


The glance twinkles and won't be in danger:
stolen in the first, and returned in the second.

15
Aspra Morte, che sempre el meglior fura
su la più verde etate e più fiorita!

Harsh death, who always stole the best
on the greenest age and most flowery!

22
"furato ha i sensi" = to have one's senses stolen, to lose ones senses, to faint:

Qual uomo a cui el papavero con l’oppio
furato ha i sensi, per lo freddo troppo
tal io rimasi a lo amoroso intoppo,
agiacciando nel fuoco ond’io ne scoppio.


Which man having the poppy with opium
fainted from being too cold [has his senses stolen/lost his senses, due to too much cold]
so I remained in the impasse of love,
lying in the fire where I burst out.

23
chi furar volse la febëa lampa.
who wanted to steal the light of the moon [or, Phebean lamp/lamp of Phebe]]

Re: Trionfi card poem by Pico de Mirandola

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Still in work

MikeH,

I think, one should differ between Hope1 (theological virtue, hope on god, spes, spero etc) ) and Hope2 (hope on love, stoic passion, speranza, speranze). Well, it's only my (eventually stupid) impression, that speranza belongs to Hope2 and spes, spero to Hope1.
Well, I see, that in Sonetto 34 the theological trio appears ...
E mentre e’ mie’ passati error pensando
men vo, fermo nel cor l’alte radice
de Carità, di Fede e di Speranza.
So my idea looks wrong.

Boiardo and Giovanni Pico were not the the first poets in the family.
Tito Vespasiano Strozzi, about 16 years older than Matteo Maria Boiardo, was the uncle of Boiardo.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tito_Vespasiano_Strozzi
His sister Lucia was the mother of the humanist courtier-poet Matteo Maria Boiardo. His cousin Tito di Leonardo Strozzi's wife Alessandra Benucci was Ariosto's mistress or secret wife.
Tito was specialist in love poems, it would be of interest to know, if Tito or other poets of the time were interested in the 4 stoic passions (with the names Amor, Speranza, Gelosia and Timor; it's my impression, that there were variations in the definitions, how stoic passions were arranged).

I had written ...
Sonetto 5 ... 5 places distance to the begin of the sonnets ... contains the words amor, timor, speranza,
Sonetto 18 ... 5 places distance to sonetto 23 ... contains the words mamma and fede, none of the 4 stoic passions
Sonetto 28 ... 5 places distance to sonetto 23 ... contains the words triunfi, amor, gelosia
Sonetto 41 ... 5 places distance to the end of the sonnets ... .... contains the vwords amor and gelosia

01 02 03 04 [05] 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 [18] 19 20 21 22
......................................................... [23] .......................................................
24 25 26 27 [28] 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 [41] 42 43 44 45
I modify this to ...
Sonetto 5... 5 places distance to the begin of the sonnets ... contains the words amor, timor, speranza,
Sonetto 18 ... 5 places distance to sonetto 23 ... contains the words mamma and fede, none of the 4 stoic passions
Sonetto 28 ... 5 places distance to sonetto 23 ... contains the words triunfi, amor, gelosia
Sonetto 41 ... 5 places distance to the end of the sonnets .... contains the vwords amor and gelosia

01 02 03 04 [05] 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 [18] 19 20 21 22
......................................................... [23] .......................................................
24 25 26 27 [28] 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 [41] 42 43 44 45
The game Minchiate has a lot with the number "5" .... 5 Papi and 5 Arie and other points.

In an earlier post I wrote ...(but 'I didn't send it, I think)
I think, some of the used tricks are outside of the common imagination. I had made some experiences with poetry, when I worked about Antonio Malatesti and his "Sfinge" ...
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=2322
also viewtopic.php?p=24547#p24547 ....ff.

In the beginning I had the imagination, that such a sonnett collection from Pico was a wild collection, somehow sorted by accident and time. This perception was disturbed, when I noted, that the "triunfi soi le carte" sonnett also contained AMOR and GELOSIA, 2 of the 4 stoic passions ...

ADAM = aleph - daleth - mem = 45 .... =1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9 (? perhaps)

48 times AMOR or Amore or Amoroso or Amorzi (sonetti 1-2-3(3)-4-5(12)-6-7(2)-8(2)-9-10-14-18-19-20-21-22-23-24-26-28-31(4)-32(2)-36-38-40(2)-41-42
4 times SPERANZA or Speranze (sonetti 5 and 8 and 13 and 34)
2 times GELOSIA (sonetti 28 and 41)
1 times TIMOR (sonetto 5)
----
55 =1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10 (? perhaps)
There was a double 5, that is 55

I made another form of counting related to Amor:
AMOR or Amore or Amoroso or Amorzi or Amorose (sonetti 1-2-3(3)-4-5(12)-6-7(2)-8(2)-9-10-14-18-19-20-21-22-23-24-26-28-31(4)-32(2)-36-38-40(2)-41-42)

1-2-3(3)-4-5(12)-6-7(2)-8(2)-9-10-14-18-19-20-21-22-23-24-26-28-31(4)-32(2)-36-38-40(2)-41-42
.............................................24-25..............................31-32....................................................................48

Amor appears 12 times in sonnet 5. .... 12 is 1/4 of 48

Amor appears 24 times in the region of sonnets 1-9 .... 24 is 1/2 of 48 ... 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9 = 45

Amor appears 25 times in the region of sonnets 1-10 .... 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10 = 55 ; 1+3+5+7+9 = 25

All sonnets between 1-10 have at least one Amor in the text

Amor appears 31 times in the region of sonnets 1-22 ... perhaps the reason, why sonnet 31 has the second most Amors (4)

Amor appears 32 times in the region of sonnets 1-23. 32 is an important number in the Kabbala (32 ways of wisdom) .... 32 is 2/3 of 48

Amor appears 16 times in the region of sonnets 24-45 ... 16 is 1/3 of 48
Amor ... 35 times
amore in 1,3,5,6,31,36,40
amoroso in 7,8,22,31
amorzi in 31
amorose in 42

notes:
Sonetto 31 contains Amor, amore, amoroso and amorzi
Sonetto 42 has the last Amor related word and this is amorose, which appears only once.

Somehow it looks interesting to translate sonetto 42
Sonetto 42
Pa.
Tremando, ardendo, el cor preso si truova.
Po.
Ov’è la neve, il laccio, il foco, il sole?
Pa.
I tuoi sguardi, i dolci acti e le parole.
Po.
Vòi taccia, chiuda gli ochi e non mi mova?
Pa.
Questo el mio mal non spinge, anze ‘l rinova.
Po.
Perchè?
Pa.
Perchè indi nascon tre parole:
virtù, stil, legiadria, unde non dole
fuoco, giaccio, catena, anzi gli giova.
Quel che lo lega, par la lingua snodi,
quel che l’agiaccia, de virtù lo incende,
l’arde in legiadre et amorose tempre.
Po.
Donque meglio me vedi, miri et odi?
Po.
Ben sai che sì, però che non me offende
agiacciando, stringendo, ardendo sempre.
Still in work
Huck
http://trionfi.com