Re: Trionfi card poem by Pico de Mirandola

41
Another question: is there any hint of the 12 zodiacal signs or the 4 elements of Minchiate? My sense has been that they were added later, perhaps with the "return of the Medici," but suggestions otherwise would be nice. The first mention of them is Berni, 1525 (quoted by Singer). The number 45 in itself doesn't suggest the 41 special cards of Minchiate. It could just as well be 23 plus the Fool.

Re: Trionfi card poem by Pico de Mirandola

42
mikeh wrote: 11 Aug 2022, 08:48 Another question: is there any hint of the 12 zodiacal signs or the 4 elements of Minchiate? My sense has been that they were added later, perhaps with the "return of the Medici," but suggestions otherwise would be nice. The first mention of them is Berni, 1525 (quoted by Singer). The number 45 in itself doesn't suggest the 41 special cards of Minchiate. It could just as well be 23 plus the Fool.
I haven't recognized anything, which looks like zodiac or elements, inside the 45 sonnets. Generally I reflect ideas like ....

a.
********************** <<<<<< 1 - 22
........................23.................. <<<<<< 23
********************** <<<<<< 24-45

or b.
********************* <<<<<<< 1 - 20
..................21... 22 ............. <<<<<< 21 - 22
..................... 23 ................. <<<<<< 23
..................24 ... 25 ............ <<<<<< 14 - 25
********************* <<<<<< 26 - 45

or c.
... similar

It gives the impression, that 23 has a sort of Fool-function. We are used, that the Fool is added at the begin or the end of the trump row. But the middle position has also logic.
We've in the Leinfelden version of the Rosenwald a date at the begin of 16th century. Possibly this version had "no Fool", but a Magician-Fool with number 1.

We've the Lorenzo Spirito lot book printed in 1482, which became very successful, and which likely formed a big influence and possibly inspired the team Pico/Boiardo. An insecure forerunner note about this type of book in Vicenza in 1473 was known to Sotzmann around 1850. I worked about this some years ago ...
viewtopic.php?p=5691#p5691
The book had a sort of 20-20-20-20-structure, which was also used in Minchiate and in a German lot book version reported by Konrad Bollstatter before.

Generally I assume, that we have only a very limited state of information about Trionfi deck variants in 15th century. If we would know all variants, we would know much more "strange versions" similar to the very different versions of Boiardo Tarocchi or Sola-Busca. A "love poem trionfi Minchiate deck" from Pico della Mirandola, which likely never was realized, wouldn't have disturbed the world very much.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Trionfi card poem by Pico de Mirandola

43
Huck wrote: 10 Aug 2022, 13:29
Somehow it looks interesting to translate sonetto 42
Sonetto 42
Pa.
Tremando, ardendo, el cor preso si truova.
Po.
Ov’è la neve, il laccio, il foco, il sole?
Pa.
I tuoi sguardi, i dolci acti e le parole.
Po.
Vòi taccia, chiuda gli ochi e non mi mova?
Pa.
Questo el mio mal non spinge, anze ‘l rinova.
Po.
Perchè?
Pa.
Perchè indi nascon tre parole:
virtù, stil, legiadria, unde non dole
fuoco, giaccio, catena, anzi gli giova.
Quel che lo lega, par la lingua snodi,
quel che l’agiaccia, de virtù lo incende,
l’arde in legiadre et amorose tempre.
Po.
Donque meglio me vedi, miri et odi?
Po.
Ben sai che sì, però che non me offende
agiacciando, stringendo, ardendo sempre.
Dialogue between Pa [normal text] and Po [italic text]

Trembling, burning, the heart is taken.
Where is the snow, the ice, the sun?
Your looks, your sweet acts and your words
Will you shut up, close your eyes and don't move me?

This my pain does not extinguish, but renews it,
For what? Because then are born three words
Virtue, style, gracefulness, whereby your fire,
ice and chain do not hurt but help.

What binds him, by the tongue is untied,
What chills, by virtue is set on fire
That burns in graceful and loving tempers.

So you see me better and hate me?
You think so, but that doesn't offend me
Trembling, burning, loving forever.

Re: Trionfi card poem by Pico de Mirandola

44
Thanks, Steven.

"cor" = heart appears 30 times in the sonetti, 4 other times as "core", but core might be something different in Italian. "Cor" = heart is Latin.

01 01 02 03 04 07 08 10 11 12 14 14 16 17core 18 18 18 19 20 21 23 24 26 28 28 32core 33 34 36core 36 38 40core 41 42

"heart" is very often used in the sonetti text, similar to "Amor" and the general context is probably "love affairs". Interestingly the most "cor"s appear in the obscure sonetto 18, and this contains the important word "mamma" (and "fede"). With 3 times cor in 18 that is by far not similar penetrant as Amor in sonetto 5 (12 times), but definitely we have observed the value "most appearances" before ... Amor 12 times in 5, question marks 6 times in 23, exclamation marks i3 n 13 and now cor 3 times in 18. I had sorted earlier ...
01 02 03 04 [05] 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 [18] 19 20 21 22
......................................................... [23] .......................................................
24 25 26 27 [28] 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 [41] 42 43 44 45
Noting this, I started to look, if I could detect a similar repeating word in Sonetto 41. I found the word "e" and "è"....

Sonetto 45 ... 13 times ... 12 times "e" ... 1 time "è"
Sonetto 41 ... 12 times ... 12 times "e"
Sonetto 23 ... 11 times ... 5 times "e" ... 5 times "è"
Sonetto 13 ... 10 times ... 2 times "e" ... 8 times "è"
Sonetto 01 ... 9 times ..... 9 times "e"

I couldn't detect a dominating word in sonetto 28 ... well, it is the only sonetto which contains the word triunfi

Chiara or chiari or chiaro appear 16 times in sonetto 39. Sonetto 39 has 16 steps difference to sonetto 23.
Totally chiara etc. appear 21 times. The meaning is in all variants given with "clear".

Another word to cor ... the heart.
Sonetto 1 starts with ...
Dagli occhi de Madonna el solfo prende
Amore, et ha per mantici i desiri
vani: el cor soffia un vento de sospiri,
che in me, che stopia sum, la fiamma incende.
... automatic translated to ..
"From the eyes of Madonna el sulfo takes
Love, and has desires for bellows
vani: el cor blows a wind of sighs,
that in me, what stopia sum, the flame ignites."

The Hebrew word for heart has the Gematria value 32 (lamed beth, 30+2) ....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahir
Bahir, English translation
https://archive.org/details/JudaismSefe ... up?q=heart
63. What is his heart?
He said: If so, Ben Zoma is out side, and you are with him.
The heart (Lev) [in numerical value] is thirty-two. These are concealed, and with them the world was created.
What these 32?
He said: These are the 32 Paths.

This is like a king who was in the innermost of many chambers. The number of such chambers was 32, and to each one there was a path. Should the king then bring everyone to his chamber through these paths? You will agree that he should not. Should he reveal his jewels, his tapestries, his hidden and concealed secrets? You will again agree that he should not. What then does he do? He touches the Daughter, and includes all the paths in her and in her garments.
One who wants to go inside should gaze there.
He married her to a king, and also gave her to him as a gift. Because of his love for her, he sometimes calls her “my sister,” since they are both from one place. Sometimes he calls her his daughter, since she is actually his daughter. And sometimes he calls her “my mother.”
The Bahir is a very old book from the kabbala development. If Pico had opportunity to read it, might be doubted. But the name "the 32 ways of wisdom" was clearly known to him, it's an essential part of the Sepher Yetzirah.

The position of the poem terminus "cor soffia" shall mean the "heart blows" (automatic translation) and it is at the 3rd line of a text, which has totally 640 lines in a year 1486, when the author started a major threat in the direction of a Christian kabbala development. It is hard to believe, that the author wanted, that the reader shall understand "heart blows" at this passage. "Sophia" is the Greek expression for the word "wisdom" and the Latin "cor"-heart should be understood as "32".

From Bahir 95 ...
https://archive.org/details/JudaismSefe ... e/2up?q=64
These are twelve, twelve, twelve, and they are the Functionaries in the Axis , the Sphere, and the Heart.
Their total is 36. The power of each of these 36 is in every other one.
Even though there are twelve in each of the three, they are all attached to each other. Therefore, all 36 Powers are in the first one, which is the Axis. And if you seek them in the Sphere, you will find the very same ones. And if you seek them in the Heart, you will again find the very same ones.
Each one therefore has 36. All of them do not have more than 36 forms.
All of them complete the Heart [which has a numerical value of 32]. Four are then left over. Add 32 to 32 and the sum is 64. These are the 64 Forms .
How do we know that 32 must be added to 32? Because it is written (Ecclesiastes 5:7), “For one above another watches, [and there are higher ones above them].”
We thus have 64, eight less than the 72 names of the Blessed Holy One. These are alluded to in the verse, “there are higher ones above them,” and they are the seven days of the week.
But one is still missing. This is referred to in the next verse (Ecclesiastes 5:8), “The advantage of the land in everything is the King.”
In the structure of I-Ching there are 64 hexagrams and 8 trigrams, from which one is declared as "heaven", which in the words of Bahir is presented as the King.

We have, that Sonetto 42 got artificial 10 lines more than the other sonetti, which had the usual 14 lines.
44*14 + 24 = 640 lines in all 45 sonnets.
The 640 lines were in harmony with the topic "64 forms".
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Trionfi card poem by Pico de Mirandola

45
Huck wrote: 13 Aug 2022, 03:41
Another word to cor ... the heart.
Sonetto 1 starts with ...
Dagli occhi de Madonna el solfo prende
Amore, et ha per mantici i desiri
vani: el cor soffia un vento de sospiri,
che in me, che stopia sum, la fiamma incende.
... automatic translated to ..
"From the eyes of Madonna el sulfo takes
Love, and has desires for bellows
vani: el cor blows a wind of sighs,
that in me, what stopia sum, the flame ignites."

...


The position of the poem terminus "cor soffia" shall mean the "heart blows"... It is hard to believe, that the author wanted, that the reader shall understand "heart blows" at this passage.
It is not the heart that blows, but the bellows of vain desire ['mantici' = the bellows/mouthpiece], Love takes the 'sulphur' ['solfo'], the igniting nature, of her gaze. The bellows of vain desire blows the heart [in him likened to a bundle of straw or hemp husk "stopia" i.e., the kindling or food for the fire] a wind of sighs, and ignites the flame [of love].

To paraphrase its meaning, as I understand it:
Love takes the sulphur of her gaze, the bellows of vain desire blow the heart a wind of sighs and ignites it, like kindling straw, into flames.

I am not convinced by your numerological speculations that this particular complitation of 45 sonnets does represent a completed work, nor even if it is, that it encodes some cabalistic riddle, and is not just the compilers collection from a variety of sources, written at different times and places. Several of the sonnets are also reproduced in other manuscripts, and all with some variation, some are minor orthographraphical variations, others more major, with differing rhymes schemes [there is a variant of the PO PA sonnet that I translated in a post above for example], so we cannot even be sure that the sonnets in this particular compilation even represent the authors final revision. There are some other poems to be found too, mainly sonnets, but other types too, such as a sestina and a capitolo.

Re: Trionfi card poem by Pico de Mirandola

46
SteveM wrote: 14 Aug 2022, 07:45 I am not convinced by your numerological speculations that this particular complitation of 45 sonnets does represent a completed work, nor even if it is, that it encodes some cabalistic riddle, and is not just the compilers collection from a variety of sources, written at different times and places. Several of the sonnets are also reproduced in other manuscripts, and all with some variation, some are minor orthographraphical variations, others more major, with differing rhymes schemes [there is a variant of the PO PA sonnet that I translated in a post above for example], so we cannot even be sure that the sonnets in this particular compilation even represent the authors final revision. There are some other poems to be found too, mainly sonnets, but other types too, such as a sestina and a capitolo.
Hm ... do you have some material to other poems attributed to Pico or to sonnets of the 45-poems-collection, which appeared elsewhere?

I'd reported the opinion of Giovanni Pasetti
Let us now abandon the existential turmoil and return to literary production. We have chosen from the forty-five sonnets in the vernacular that make up the Canzoniere surviving of Giovanni the ten compositions in our opinion most significant for the purposes of our study. Probably, these sonnets were conceived over a period of time ranging from 1479 to 1486. ?? It is impossible to further specify the dating, although it can be stated with certainty that they risked being set on fire together with the five books of Latin elegies, as it tells us. Poliziano in a well-known Greek epigram: Pico, continually wounded and inflamed by the arrows of love, rebelled, tore arrows, bow and quiver, made a stake and everything burned. Grasping the Loves themselves, he tied their tender hands with the rope, and threw them into the midst of the fire. And he burned the fire with fire. Why, o foolish loves, did you fly from Pico, prince of the Muses? The episode is slightly later than March 1483, since in that month he had sent the first of these five books to Angelo. We must therefore conclude that this exercise had faithfully accompanied the Count of Concordia in the long years of wandering and study, in Bologna (1477 and 1478), Ferrara (1479), Florence (1480), Padua (1481 and 1482), Pavia (1483) , before the new Florentine stay in 1484 and the semester spent in Paris in 1485. But the desire to express himself in Italian verse also touched Giovanni in the following years, if a letter dated May 15, 1492, addressed to his nephew, mentions poetic nonsense by now abandoned with a tone that betrays relative proximity in time.
In any case, the manuscript on which our knowledge of the collection is based comes from the court of Ludovico Sforza known as il Moro, who was a relative and good friend of the Mirandolan prince. It is precisely the Code 1543 of the National Library of Paris, drawn up between 1492 and 1497. It is composed of more than two hundred sheets, which present, in addition to many poorly-known versers, the Stanze di Lorenzo il Magnifico, the Stanzeby Poliziano, sonnets by Bembo and Tebaldeo, strambotti by Pulci and dell'Aquilano, works by Benivieni and Sannazzaro. It is a remarkable collection of loving and encomiastic poems, almost certainly completed after Pico's death, which documents how at the Milanese court the spirits of the great Tuscans coexisted with the more conventional Po Valley ways, in the rich flourishing of Petrarchian inspiration.
I followed the note "Codice 1543 della Biblioteca Nazionale di Parigi" inside his Italian text.

https://iiif.biblissima.fr/collections/ ... f54e5ff5c1
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b ... 0c/f1.item .... start of the codice
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b ... /f129.item .... start of the text of Giovanni Pico della Mirandola
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b ... /f144.item .... end of the text of Giovanni Pico della Mirandola
.... the text contains an epigramm between sonetto 44 and sonetto 45
Incipit
Uror in ambiguo gemino correptus amore
Urar et ut vivam nec graue vulnus erit.
... according the manuscript commentary.
The sonetti are NOT numbered in the text.


in work
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Trionfi card poem by Pico de Mirandola

47
Huck wrote: 13 Aug 2022, 03:41 We have, that Sonetto 42 got artificial 10 lines more than the other sonetti, which had the usual 14 lines.
??
Not so - there are 14 (otherwise it would not be a sonnet!). The references to the speakers PO & PA should appear on the same line as the speakers, as they do in the manuscript, not in separate lines of their own.

https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b ... /f143.item
Huck wrote: 14 Aug 2022, 13:02 Hm ... do you have some material to other poems attributed to Pico or to sonnets of the 45-poems-collection, which appeared elsewhere?
Here, for example is the above Sonnet 42 as it appears in the Codex Nicolò da Correggio [Codex .H.6.1 (It. 836 [X * 34]) at the Estense Library of Modena] :

J. Mirandulensis comes

Tremando, ardendo, il cor preso si trova.
Ove è la neve, il giaccio, il fuoco, il sole?
Tuo occhi dolci, gli atti e le parole
Vòi taccia, chiuda gli occhi e non mi mova?

Questo il mio mal non spinge, anci il rinova.
Perché? Chè de lì nascono tre prole,
Virtù, stil, legiadrïa, ove non dole
Fredo, giaccio, cathena, anci mi giova.

Quel che ’l cor liga, par la lingua snodi;
Quel che lo aggiaza, de virtù lo accende;
Arde in ligiadre et amorose tempre.

Meglio è donque me vedi, miri et odi?
Ben sa’ che sì, perochè non mi offende
Tremando, ardendo ogn’hor amando sempre.

And for ease of comparison, how it is in our BnF manuscript:

Pa. Tremando, ardendo, el cor preso si truova.
Po. Ov’è la neve, il laccio, il foco, il sole?
Pa. I tuoi sguardi, i dolci acti e le parole.
Po. Vòi taccia, chiuda gli ochi e non mi mova?

Pa. Questo el mio mal non spinge, anze ‘l rinova.
Po. Perchè? Pa. - Perchè indi nascon tre parole:
Virtù, stil, legiadria, unde non dole
Fuoco, giaccio, catena, anzi gli giova.

Quel che lo lega, par la lingua snodi,
Quel che l’agiaccia, de virtù lo incende,
L’arde in legiadre et amorose tempre.

Po. Donque meglio me vedi, miri et odi?
Pa. Ben sai che sì, però che non me offende
agiacciando, stringendo, ardendo sempre.

The Modena version, togther with a list of various sources in which Mirandola's poems can be found, I found here:

https://www.academia.edu/7805678/Le_Rim ... pp_181_199

There is also another article on the sonnets at the site here:
https://www.academia.edu/5662797/A_prop ... _n_29_2006

Sonnet 42 appears as sonnet xiv in collection of sonnets here:
https://books.google.es/books?id=Ve9BAA ... la&f=false

This also includes the trionfi sonnet, which it calls a madrigal, after the last sonnet xviii on p49. Of which the editor notes the line 'may the cards/pages be filled with his triumphs' that the allusion to Petrarch is obvious.

Re: Trionfi card poem by Pico de Mirandola

48
Thanks, I've to look for that.

An observation:
The offered internet text of the poems
http://a.trionfi.eu/p/atest.txt
has 6 question marks for sonetto 23 at the lines 2-4-8-9-10-11.
The handwritten text at https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b ... .item.zoom (sonetto 23 is at the bottom of the page) has there nothing, as far I can decipher that.
Similar at sonetto 25 ("Qual etc. ..."), which has 4 question marks at lines 4-6-7-8.

So I assume, that somebody has interpreted, that the relevant sentences are questions. This would change the situation of the observation "23 question marks in the full text", of course.

Sonetto 13 (starts with "Or su") has 3 exclamation marks at lines 4-5-12 ...
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b ... .item.zoom
A similar situation is there for the exclamation marks. Somebody has imterpreted, that there are 13 exclamation marks in the full text.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Trionfi card poem by Pico de Mirandola

49
Huck wrote: 15 Aug 2022, 08:12
An observation:
The offered internet text of the poems
http://a.trionfi.eu/p/atest.txt
has 6 question marks for sonetto 23 at the lines 2-4-8-9-10-11.
The handwritten text at https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b ... .item.zoom (sonetto 23 is at the bottom of the page) has there nothing, as far I can decipher that.
Indeed, I am not sure what the rules, if any, for punctuation in the vernacular there were at the time, probably nothing standardized. From a brief look it looks like the only abbreviation used in this collection was a colon : , the use and meaning of which may have been very different to modern English [or Italian] use, and a forward slash / to indicate the end of each sonnet.

Re: Trionfi card poem by Pico de Mirandola

50
Brainstorming with google ...

Welches Satzzeichen existiert nicht. Was lernt die Interpunktion? Satzzeichen auf Russisch
https://ik-ptz.ru/de/matematika/kakoi-z ... aciya.html

Wikipedia Question mark
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Question_mark

Wikipedia Exclamation mark
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exclamation_mark

Wikipedia Punctuation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punctuation

Perhaps one should look for the earliest printed edition of Pico's Oratio and the Novecento. If one of these still exist ...

************

Added: I found a printed text with letters from Pico, said to be from 1495.
A lot of the signs (letters ?) are not easy to decipher. A question mark I couldn't find.

https://www.google.de/books/edition/Epi ... =de&gbpv=0
https://www.google.de/books/edition/Epi ... =de&gbpv=1

************

Added:
Le Rime di Giovanni Pico della Mirandola. Problemi testuali e interpretativi, in "Rinascimento" 52 (2012), pp. 181-199 by Simona Mercuri
https://www.academia.edu/7805678/Le_Rim ... pp_181_199
Footnote 4, page 182: G. PICO DELLA MIRANDOLA, Sonetti, a cura di G. DILEMMI, Torino 1994. Agli studi finqui menzionati, si aggiunga il saggio di M.
MARTELLI, La poesia giovanile e le opere in volgare di Giovanni Pico della Mirandola, in Giovanni Pico della Mirandola, Convegno internazionaledi studi nel cinquecentesimo anniversario della morte (Mirandola, 4-8 ottobre 1994), 2 voll., acura di G. C. GARFAGNINI. , Firenze 1997, II, pp. 531-541, di cui si dirà in seguito.
from page 184
P = Paris, Bibliothèque Nationale de France, cod. it. 1543. Cartaceo, miscellaneo di un’unica mano, con minime aggiunte di altri copisti. Il nucleo centrale del codice, allestito daun primo copista, è anteriore al 1497 (come si deduce da alcune note marginali apposte da una seconda mano alle cc. 48v e 123v). L’ispiratore-allestitore del codice viene indicato nel poeta milanese Gaspare Visconti. Al suo interno, alle cc. 62r - 69v, si con-ervano 45 sonetti di Pico raccolti sotto il titolo Sonetti del Conte Zoanne de la Mirandola. Il manoscritto è un’antologia – prevalentemente poetica – di autori toscani (Lorenzo, Poliziano, Girolamo Benivieni) e di area settentrionale (Bembo, Tebaldeo). Daquesto manoscritto è stato ricavato l’attuale ms. Naz. IIII 75 della Biblioteca Nazionale Centrale di Firenze (F1), che ne riproduce – ma non integralmente –, il contenuto (mancano, ad esempio, le Stanze del Poliziano); F1 è inoltre mutilo delle carte iniziali e pertanto privo dei primi 27 sonetti pichiani e dell’incipit del sonetto 28.
Huck
http://trionfi.com
cron