Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

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I have edited my post at viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1102&p=17309#p17309
to reflect revisions that Alain has made in his essay since my original translation. He has corrected some small errors that I alerted him to and also added more pictures, and accompanying explanations, for his division 1 + 4 + 7 + 10. In addition, I have reformatted the essay so that the long quotations are in the usual format for quotes in this Forum, and also added an online link to Thierry Depaulis's article discussing Perrache in 1585, http://www.academia.edu/15317283/_%C3%8 ... p._386-392 .

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

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and also added an online link to Thierry Depaulis's article discussing Perrache in 1585, http://www.academia.edu/15317283/_%C3%8 ... p._386-392 .[/quote]


Thanks Mikeh;
I had already noted that already in 1585, Perrache has edited expressions that will be entirely reproduced in the 1637 Rules.

Thierry Depaulis goes further and notes for the period 1580 3 authors

"Ainsi, trois publications des années 1580 usent de termes qui sont en pleine concor-dance avec les
Regles dv iev des tarots de l’abbé de Marolles (1637).
Outre le vocabulaire de base – mat, bagat,deniers, bâtons, triomphes, écart
– qui est déjà courant en français, on rencontre des expressions ou des situations qui s’accordent pleinement avec ce que nous enseigne un texte légèrement postérieur. Les comptes d’Henri de Navarre confirment le choix du jeu à trois.
On est donc en droit de penser que des pratiques très semblables – jeu à trois sans enchères, écart effectué par le donneur, importance des combinaisons (quatre rois, sept tarots), fou servant d’excuse, forte valeur (5 points) accordée aux rois, compte des points avec seuil à 20 – avaient cours au moins dans le dernier quart du XVIe siècle sinon plus tôt.
Henri de Navarre est béarnais, ses partenaires sont gascon, charentais ou champenois ;
Tabourot est bourguignon, Perrache est provençal, Gauchet est francilien, ces trois-là font paraître leurs livres à Paris : tout laisse à croire que ces règles étaient connues dans une bonne partie du royaume."
http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

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I am not sure of the relevance of your quotation from Depaulis, or the one earlier pertaining to Perrache. The only question of concern is whether the Fool is considered a trumph in 1585 in any of those places he mentions. I do not see that he addresses that question. I do not see that we can assume that it was, because different French texts in the 17th century say different things. For example the 1674 Maison Academique says clearly that there are 21 triumphs, on p. 176:

https://books.google.com/books?id=HLzge ... es&f=false

I presume that the 1659 edition is similar. Kaplan in vol 2 says that "the second edition in 1659, and subsequent editions up to 1702, cite the trumps by title and with Arabic numbers." He gives a reproduction of the 1702 edition's page fitting this description. The 1674 edition has the same, on p. 181. This is the one that sats on p. 176 that there are 21 triumphs.

Perhaps the Perrache that we are studying will say something about there being 22 triumphs. I haven't seen it so far.

Another consideration is the "schlem" rule. I do not find that in the 1674 Maison Academique rules or the Regle of 1637. How old is that rule?

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

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Hi Mikeh

The Note is about the datation of the french Rules, not about the 22 Trumps.
They are mentionned in the Rules of Tarots 1637 Nevers France written anonymous but most probably Abbé de mirolles.

1637 is the one given by Depaulis but he infers that they were in use in the 1580.



As for the Sclem and the Excuse making the last point, it is the pirpose of the game and is the only way to win all the tricks in you have the Excuse in your hand.
I have no dat about the datation of this strateg.
http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

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Nota bene
The only reference I have found listing 22 Triomphes is
:
Les Règles du Jeu des Tarots transcrites par T. DEPAULIS (Cf Note 4) et datée en 1637 (*) énumèrent 22 Triomphes : Ce jeu qui est composé de soixante & dix-huict Cartes, se peut distribuer en cinq bandes, la première & la plus noble de toutes appellée triomphes qui sont au nombre de vingt-deux : & les quatre autres couleurs sont nommées d'espées, bastons, couppes & deniers, chacune desquelles a quatorze cartes : Sçauoir le Roy, la Royne, le Cheualier, & le Faon, qui s'appellent aussi les quatre honneurs & le reste depuis le dix iusques à laz,” (Anonyme, Les Regles du Jeu des Tarots, Nevers, 1637)

The Note about the datation of 1637 is about this datation
Many expressions found in the 1637 edition were present as soon as 1580.
But no mention, as far as I know , of the Triomphes as 22
http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie