Re: Collection ... Karnöffel

31
Dear Huck,

thanks for your answer. Perhaps I should clarify first in light of
Huck wrote: 08 Apr 2021, 01:35 My own suggestion to explain the etymology of Karnöffel was ....
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1111&p=17330&hilit=kanjifah#p17330
... an Arabian "Kanjifah" (= Kartenspiel). But I don't insist on it.

that I also do not insist on the etymology Karnöffel = carneval in an event-situation sense of the gameplay. It is just a hypothesis as all other hypotheses (and do we have more than hypotheses in light of the epistemology of Popper? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability) - and I do find your Kanjifah"-one also very appealing.

My question w.r.t. any hypothesis is, whether it helps to give first answers to other open questions - as, in our case, questions as: why this double naming Karnöffel/Keyserspil, why this proximity of Karnöffel to Fastnacht/Karnveal, why the representation of Karnöffel as the Unter (who is not a Landsknecht, but an Unter-Marshal), why the multitude of the 10 is represented as a single Banner, what is the relation between Karnöffel and Imperatori, etc. In this light, my hypothesis gives at least some ideas, which might open up the mind. And my hope is that this opening of mind will help someone else one day with far more knowledge of the documents to see a new pattern which can be evidenced.

W.r.t. to your remark
Huck wrote: The word and the game Karnöffel went North, not to Italy. North means far North, Scandinavia and even as far as Greenland.
https://www.pagat.com/national/greenland.html
And North means in 16th century also Protestantism. As Tarot meant Catholicism, especially if it contained a Pope and Papessa and not Juno and Jupiter.

I just want to add, that Karnöffel, "das wilde Spil", allows to beat the Pope by the Karnöffel and the Devil (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karn%C3%B6ffel
, which is a very Protestant thing, especially by the Devil. Tarot --and thus: trionfi/imperatori?-- is far more ordered, if we remember Pratesi http://naibi.net/A/03-FERRARA-Z.pdf
The game is not a wild one, it is mainly practised by persons of ripe age, and many Ladies are also known to appreciate it. The order of the cards and the manner of play are in themselves a defence against any detractor.

Lastly, I want to comment on
Huck wrote: So it needed a French Revolution and a French Brigadegeneral to make the Cologne people understand, that that, what they knew since 1341 as Fastelovend and in 12th century as Vastavend, was in the reality of 1795 a French carnaval.
But no reason to translate the 15th century Germanic Karnöffel to an Italian Karnevalsjeck .... :-) .

I have no doubt that "Karneval" as a name reached Cologne, quite north of Constance and far away from Nördlingen, in the 18th century. My argument was different, taking up your own reflection that the game could have been invented at the occasion of the Council of Constance (1414-1418), which was 4 years long and assembled a lot of people from Northern Italy in South Germany, bringing their language and customs with them. And my point was that this unknown word "Carneval" was introduced to or heard by the German speaking environment and equivalenced with Fastnacht. However, after the Council, they evidently stayed with their own "Fastnacht". The only trace of the name "carneval" -so the hypothesis-- left after the four years was the name of the new game invented right at the Council (this is your own hypothesis, you pointed to "Kaysern"). And that this name was first orally transported before being written down by someone, who did it on "earsight".

Re: Collection ... Karnöffel

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Grimm, Wörterbuch
https://woerterbuchnetz.de/?sigle=DWB&l ... rom_form#1
... search for "Karneval"
2KARNEVAL, m. und n. fasching, fastnacht, it. carnevale, carnovale, s. Diez 393 (2, 17). man schreibt auch karnaval nach dem franz. carnaval: das närrische hüpfende lebenskarnaval. J. Paul flegelj. (1804) 3, 56. früher auch fem.: wie dann alljährlich auf die carnewal oder fasznacht nach Venedig ein haufen volks aus allen orten des reichs oder der welt von fernen ländern dahin reiset. Simplic. 1, 173. Dazu viele zusammensetzungen, wie carnevalsabend Göthe 29, 230. 234, carnevalsfreiheit 29, 236. 6, 197, carnevalsmenge 29, 244, carnevalszeit 267; karnevalserfahrung Lessing 1, 370; karnevalsmaske oder larve (Sturz 1, 175), karnevalslust, karnevalsnarrheit u. s. w.
Nothing points to a German language existence of Karneval in 15th or 16th century. "Simplic. 1, 173" is a quote from 17th century, 1669. Likely the quote noted by Adam Wrage.

Zedler German dictionary ca. 1740.
https://www.zedler-lexikon.de/index.htm ... w=100&l=de
Article: Carneval
Image
Image


The Zedler Lexikon is a monster with 64 books and I estimate 7-8 meter length (Wiki says 4,30 meters, but I can't imagine that). 63.000 pages. "Carneval" got less than a half page. Most of the article is about Carneval in Venetia, Carneval in Germany got 2 sentences. My translation:
At the end of 17th century some protestantic courts had celebrated the "Carnevals-Lustbarkeiten". Especially the Carneval of Hannover at the time of the Kurfürst Ernst August had some fame for it.
Image
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_August_(Hannover)
... the father of Georg I, King of Great Britain and Ireland since 1714.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Collection ... Karnöffel

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Dear Huck and others,

even if my hypothesis
vh0610 wrote: 10 Apr 2021, 07:25 I have no doubt that "Karneval" as a name reached Cologne, quite north of Constance and far away from Nördlingen, in the 18th century. My argument was different, taking up your own reflection that the game could have been invented at the occasion of the Council of Constance (1414-1418), which was 4 years long and assembled a lot of people from Northern Italy in South Germany, bringing their language and customs with them. And my point was that this unknown word "Carneval" was introduced to or heard by the German speaking environment and equivalenced with Fastnacht. However, after the Council, they evidently stayed with their own "Fastnacht". The only trace of the name "carneval" -so the hypothesis-- left after the four years was the name of the new game invented right at the Council (this is your own hypothesis, you pointed to "Kaysern"). And that this name was first orally transported before being written down by someone, who did it on "earsight".

leads to nowhere, at least it led me to this new wonderful online-website of the Richental-Chronik (Ulrich von Richental was THE chronist of the Council of Constance), which was colourfully written in 1420-1430. There are several versions known, which are later copies of the 15th century, the main three are compared on that website in detail in very scientific way.

And in the Aulendorf-Version (https://edition.mgh.de/001/html/edition ... $hl=karten) you can read under the rubrum 251
Und solt och da zwüschen nieman spilen noch karten, noch kainerlay spil tuͦn, weder haimlich noch offenlich, biß ain baͧpst erwellet wurd.
[My translation: And noone should also in the meanwhile play cards, not any other game, neither secretly nor openly, until a pope is elected]

And also in the Konstanz-Version (https://edition.mgh.de/001/html/edition ... $hl=karten) you can read under the same rubrum 251
Es solt ouch dazwüschen nieman mer weder spilen noch karten, noch dehainerlay handspil nit tuͦn, haimlich noch offenlich, bis der bapst erwelt wurd.
[My translation: Noone should also in the meanwhile play cards, not any other game played by hand, neither secretly nor openly, until the pope is elected]

Hence both version are very close and one can deduce that the text is correct and present in the original version. Thus it gives us strong evidence of card games at the Council of Constance (which is quite logic after the ban on card playing in Constance of 29.12.1379, you certainly all know of).

I did not know this - did you?

Re: Collection ... Karnöffel

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I somehow forgot to read this thread just when it was getting interesting. I like the Carnival-Karnoffel idea a lot, although I'm not sure what it gets us, besides a possible etymology and a good comparison between a card game and an event.

I want to chime in with my theory of the relationship between Karnoffel and VIII Imperadori. First, I still think that Karnoffel was earlier than 1423, our date for VIII Imperadore. We will wait and see about Nordlingen. But I can't imagine what else Filippo would have been thinking about if "Nel 1420 vietò qualsiasi giuoco delle carte, quando non fosse secondo il retto e antico sistema”, (F. Malaguzzi Valeri, La corte di Ludovico il Moro (Milano, Hoepli, 1913-1917) vol. I, p. 268, cited by Caldwell at http://trionfi.com/0/e1/01. It wouldn't be a decree against Aces high, because his own game of the gods did that, very specifically, in two of the suits. And I don't know of any games that make Pages or Unters high, except Karnoffel. Karnoffel certainly seems to fit the bill. Then VIII Imperatori would be a way of getting around that decree: you just make the trumps Emperors, and they are not former louts, they are always Emperors. Now Emperor of what is another question, perhaps a way of sneaking in louts for four of them. But it's hard to outlaw a game just on the basis of how someone interprets an innocent-looking Emperor. I can even imagine that it imports another feature of Karnoffel, namely, that some of them Emperors have less power than others. Maybe they are Empresses, who only have power over Queens and below. Or something else, crazier. But on the cards they look innocent enough. Maybe they are Babylonian, Persian, Greek, and Roman. Or German, Greek, Turkish, and Chinese. Well, it doesn't matter. What matters is that it restores the correct look to what might have been, and might still be for some, topsy-turvy.

Re: Collection ... Karnöffel

35
vh0610 had meanwhile contact to the archive of Nördlingen. A research of the archive for a Karnöffel note in 1426 was negative. The next known note for Karnöffel is in Augsburg 1446, karnüsslin (Schreiber, S. 46) “Es sol aber nyemand karten des kartenspils, daz man nennt karnüßlin in dehain wege”. Augsburg is not very far from Nördlingen, 72 km.
Nonetheless it's natural, that the oldest known notes of a game or deck are in their date younger than the original first appearance of the same game or the same deck. There are not very much game names known, where the first appearance is older than 1446.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Collection ... Karnöffel

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Thanks very much for reporting on vh0610's inquiry into Nördlingen. That's solid enough to dispel it.

I don't think anyone doubts that the game is older, perhaps even three decades older, than 1446. Unlike with carte da trionfi, Karnöffel doesn't have a sudden cluster of references and surviving cards from different places within a year or two. We can be comfortable that the game of Triumphs wasn't invented much before 1440; the evidence for Karnöffel, however, like most other very early card games, is too sporadic to make a guess to within decades.

But with this new information, it's just that we cannot anymore cite "1426" as the first evidence of the game.
Image

Re: Collection ... Karnöffel

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Hi, great resources you have built here! In April I've exchanged emails with both vh0610 and Huck; I had planned to join this forum then, but my spare time was much less than anticipated.

A few years ago I compiled materials about Karnöffel in a Google Doc (in German). It's a little messy, certainly not complete and contains mistakes - please let me know if you have suggestions or corrections. You should be able to comment on the Google Doc directly.
Two (?) years ago I ordered the digitization of the "Karnöffel-Grammatik" kept in the University Library of Wroclaw - unfortunately they seem to have forgotten to make the file publicly available on their website (it should be here: https://www.bibliotekacyfrowa.pl/publication/103612). Let me know if you're interested in that scanned book.
I have not had the time to pursue my Karnöffel research in recent years as other topics and obligations took precedence, but I'm still interested in the history of the game.

Re: Collection ... Karnöffel

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Welcome Jonas,
nice, that you have come here.

I still have your Doc-Files
1. 1426: Karnöffeln and the Nördlinger Spieleordnung
2. Karnöffel (collection)

More or less we agreed, that the 1426 document (1) was wrong.
My impression about your list of references (2.) was, that it might be at least in parts better than my own.

You was introduced by Ross 21st of March 2021...
Recent research by Jonas Richter suggests that the Nördlingen reference to Karnöffel in 1426 is mythical, a conflation of references from secondary sources, which Schreiber brought together. The next earliest is in 1446.

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=2091&p=23550&hilit=richter#p23550
In this thread it was discussed a little bit. Various contributions. A little bit chaotic.

At 24th of March I started to collect the most important documents ...
.... this was here ...
viewtopic.php?p=23557#p23557
... this proceeded a few posts.
Huck
http://trionfi.com