Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22
Posted: 15 Jul 2016, 09:25
From earliest testaments (such as Boairdo/Steele) the is a clear disctinction between fool and trumps (there being 21 + fool); that it is outside of the sequence. By nature it can be placed anywhere as excuse (Croce merely example how in play one is more likely to use an excuse for a higher trump, rather than a lower one, not its 'place' among them. As the proverb says, here, there and everywhere.mikeH wrote: As I said in my post, it is clear that the high position of the Fool as presented in the riddle is only in the Fool's own mind: his actual position is elsewhere. It is merely the possibility of it being high that is contemplated. But it would not be a contradiction if Croce made it the lowest trump in one place, a riddle, and the highest in another, an appropriati. It is all a matter of interpretation, and even if there were conventions in appropriati, they do not necessarily apply elsewhere.
I agree, they were maybe left out because of the sensitivities of these two subjects amongst that milieu, and/or because there were only 20 ladies present - we know from other evidence of the time there were 22 in the Bolognese at the time, and cannot draw from this poem testament to a standard of only 20.mikeh wrote:SteveM wrote,
We could not conclude from this appropriati that in Bologna of Croce's experience there were only 2 papi and not 4, or that they weren't called "papi" but rather "imperator" and "imperatrice" (although I expect, at least as regrds the names, the situation was rather fluid in the 1520s). He is simply choosing that interpretation, perhaps borrowing from elsewhere in the process, and does not want to cause controversy for perpetuating a pope and a popess in the cards, both offensive to the Church.
I think, in some versions of the game at least, the Bagatelle is also worth quite a few points, either of its own accord, in combination or if one wins the last trump with it (being the lowest trump it is hard to retain, because of its point value other players hunt for it too, so to retain it to win a trump is difficult thus worth more points, or something like that). Its high point value does not make it 'one of the highest'! Neither, imho, does the fools high value denote a place for the fool in the sequence of trumps.From another point of view, that of winning the game, it is one of the highest, perhaps even the highest, in the sense of "most valuable", because of the "verzicole", that is, its ability to fill a position in point-getting sequences, a rule that seems to have applied in Bologna from an early period.
You mean the Croce? That was already known, an article on it is on Pratesi's site (I think you translated it, or perhaps it was just part one you translated, with Croce's riddle).Thanks for finding another "tarocchi appropriati". Does that count as the earliest, or as one of the earliest, of type A?