mikeH wrote: As I said in my post, it is clear that the high position of the Fool as presented in the riddle is only in the Fool's own mind: his actual position is elsewhere. It is merely the possibility of it being high that is contemplated. But it would not be a contradiction if Croce made it the lowest trump in one place, a riddle, and the highest in another, an appropriati. It is all a matter of interpretation, and even if there were conventions in appropriati, they do not necessarily apply elsewhere.

From earliest testaments (such as Boairdo/Steele) the is a clear disctinction between fool and trumps (there being 21 + fool); that it is outside of the sequence. By nature it can be placed anywhere as excuse (Croce merely example how in play one is more likely to use an excuse for a higher trump, rather than a lower one, not its 'place' among them. As the proverb says, here, there and everywhere.

mikeh wrote:SteveM wrote,

We could not conclude from this appropriati that in Bologna of Croce's experience there were only 2 papi and not 4, or that they weren't called "papi" but rather "imperator" and "imperatrice" (although I expect, at least as regrds the names, the situation was rather fluid in the 1520s). He is simply choosing that interpretation, perhaps borrowing from elsewhere in the process, and does not want to cause controversy for perpetuating a pope and a popess in the cards, both offensive to the Church.

I agree, they were maybe left out because of the sensitivities of these two subjects amongst that milieu, and/or because there were only 20 ladies present - we know from other evidence of the time there were 22 in the Bolognese at the time, and cannot draw from this poem testament to a standard of only 20.

From another point of view, that of winning the game, it is one of the highest, perhaps even the highest, in the sense of "most valuable", because of the "verzicole", that is, its ability to fill a position in point-getting sequences, a rule that seems to have applied in Bologna from an early period.

I think, in some versions of the game at least, the Bagatelle is also worth quite a few points, either of its own accord, in combination or if one wins the last trump with it (being the lowest trump it is hard to retain, because of its point value other players hunt for it too, so to retain it to win a trump is difficult thus worth more points, or something like that). Its high point value does not make it 'one of the highest'! Neither, imho, does the fools high value denote a place for the fool in the sequence of trumps.

Thanks for finding another "tarocchi appropriati". Does that count as the earliest, or as one of the earliest, of type A?

You mean the Croce? That was already known, an article on it is on Pratesi's site (I think you translated it, or perhaps it was just part one you translated, with Croce's riddle).

SteveM wrote: You mean the Croce? That was already known, an article on it is on Pratesi's site (I think you translated it, or perhaps it was just part one you translated, with Croce's riddle).

I don't find it at Pratesi's site. Maybe you mean Andrea's site? Andrea writes more than once about the writer.
https://www.google.de/?ion=1&espv=2#q=s ... sare+Croce

Yes, sorry, I was referring to here

http://www.letarot.it/page.aspx?id=224

in english (by mikeH)
here:

http://www.letarot.it/page.aspx?id=224&lng=ENG#

and here:

http://www.letarot.it/page.aspx?id=268

(no english translation as yet, as far as I know)

My bad, sorry,

Hi Alain.

Please consider the following JPGs a follow up of my post on the 1st page where I claimed that only regular Tessellation is used to shelter the 78 in this fleeting world.

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1102#p16957

Since you are still in the construction phase of your assumptions I thought that some visual input might help you to get a grip on the striking geometrical ground rules that The REVERSED MAN already provides ((and DID so in Filippo's lair(s)!)).

http://www.themorgan.org/collection/tar ... hanged-man

(Please use the thereat installed ZOOM to explore all the details!)

How the Kilim-Pattern is extracted is explained at length in my already given links here. In principle the hand-painted pattern must only be straightened out to achieve the naturally occurring angles during weaving.

In the topic I did announce about this matter on your 1st page here (of which I will leave a link here so that you mustn't go further astray ) I will go further into the details that can be seen on this kilim.

The provenance for example can be traced by studying surviving Persian and Turkish kilim rugs and content of the ancient symbols still in use today in those regions and the all around political situation in Filippo's time and live are of some interest too for this matter.

Now I'll show you (in part only) how the Kilim-Pattern came to be and how you have to follow the rules of classical Tessellation to ARRIVE at the stage where you CAN BEGIN to construct from this acquired stock the much bigger REAL pattern that was painted on the WALL for the NAILS.





























Note please:

If you do it the correct way (the construction by classical Tessellation rules) you will get a 7 by 7 „board“ in the „middle“ for the 22 to tell their stories in an evolutionary dance with each other that transcends time and matter.

The 56 will be stationary guarding the 22 in a neat frame and shelter them against prying eyes – like the COURT did since the beginning.

To achieve the correct dimensions for the "board" and other details you should have from time to time a look on the reversed REVERSED MAN because HE with this new "landscape" details provides further info for your construction - much like a sketch I could draw from a "scene" that I "observe".

In principle HE holds the CONSTRUCTION plan.
And because most of my JPGs have the same set-up you can load them down and into some slide show app on your PC to follow the construction process in an entertaining and educating fashion ... !

I will be back sometime soon with the link to the new announced topic which you did inspire Alain!

G D talk!

Adrian

I wrote, about the Fool card,

From another point of view, that of winning the game, it is one of the highest, perhaps even the highest, in the sense of "most valuable", because of the "verzicole", that is, its ability to fill a position in point-getting sequences, a rule that seems to have applied in Bologna from an early period.

To which SteveM replied

I think, in some versions of the game at least, the Bagatelle is also worth quite a few points, either of its own accord, in combination or if one wins the last trump with it (being the lowest trump it is hard to retain, because of its point value other players hunt for it too, so to retain it to win a trump is difficult thus worth more points, or something like that). Its high point value does not make it 'one of the highest'! Neither, imho, does the fools high value denote a place for the fool in the sequence of trumps.

My argument that from one point of view the Fool is one of the highest cards, if not the highest, due to its point-getting ability, was not meant as a matter of strict logic, but of association, and only applies to cards that, strictly speaking, have no place in the hierarchy. Of the others we already know where they are, high or low. If, in a variant of the game, there was another card that also functioned as "Excuse" but had no point-getting ability at the end--say, a Beggar--there would for it be no such association with the high end. This consideration does not apply to the Bagatella, because we already know where it is in the hierarchy.

In a (Christianizd) Pythagorean interpretation (not explanation, remember) of the cards, the "Bagatt Ultimo" would have a different allegorical interpretation/association. 1 is the number of God, hence "low" in the sense of "before everything else". "Bagatt Ultimo" then would be comparable to the "last rites" of Christianity, which gives the sinner "more points", allegorically speaking, in the afterlife.

Can we also use this argument as part of an explanation for the rule? I do not know where and when "Bagatt Ultimo" was introduced. Andrea has an example in poetry from 18th century Piedmont (http://www.associazioneletarot.it/page. ... 59&lng=ENG). This is the same region as the centuries-earlier "Tarotica" document (http://www.letarot.it/page.aspx?id=293&lng=ITA), which is overtly Pythagorean in thinking. That proves nothing, as "Bagat Ultimo" might have been introduced somewhere else; but it is something, and Pythagorean considerations might have applied there as well.

Link to the translation in English of the first two paraprahes of the Ancient Rules of 1637 by J Mc Leod and myself.

https://fr.groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Perrache/info

Translation on :
http://trionfi.com/0/p/1637.html

Paragraphe A :
This pack, which consists of seventy-eight cards, can be divided into five sets. The first and noblest of them all is called Trumps, of which there are twenty-two. The other four plain suits (1) are known as swords, batons, cups and coins: each of them consists of fourteen cards : namely the King, Queen, Cavalier and Jack (2), which are also called the four honours, and the remaining cards from the Ten to the Ace. [they] are of as little use as the dregs of the people, who are much more a burden than a pleasure, especially when a player's hand contains numeral cards of every suit with few trumps(3) because in that case neither the Kings themselves with their Queens (4) nor all their realm can protect the player from total ruin, if he cannot persuade the others to redeal the cards (5).


Comment

(1) The Rules of the Tarots qualify the four suits as "Colours", but "colour" for in English has a separate and different meaning. The modern international 52-card pack has four suits but only two colours - red and black. The red cards are hearts and diamonds, the black cards clubs and spades. To speak in English about colours in a Tarot pack is confusing, since most of the cards are multi-coloured. Whilst in four-suited games where one of the suits is designated as trumps, there is unfortunately no generally understood English word for suits that are not trumps (the somewhat clumsy "non-trump suits" is probably the best we have), Tarot players have the advantage of being able to use "trumps" for the special cards and "suits" for the four suits that are not trumps. The Germans have the word "Fehlfarbe" for a non-trump suit and some Americans of German descent have adapted this to "fail-suit", but this term would not be understood except by players of the games that use this term. Anyway, German-speaking Tarock players use "Farben" for the four suits, just as the French use "couleurs". In France, the use of "couleurs" for the four suits seems to be completely standard, both in modern texts and in texts from the time when Italian suited cards were still commonly used - for example the "Règles du jeu de tarots", Besançon, 1862 says that the pack consists of "22 atouts et 4 couleurs de 14 sujets chacun. Les couleurs sont: epées, bâtons, deniers (ou roses), et coupes."

(2) The French text uses "Faon" for Jack, instead of the usual word "Valet". This word "Faon", possibly derived from "Fante", the Italian word for Jack, is not used in any other card game description

(3) The cryptic old Frenh "quand il s'en rencontre de toutes les livrées" has been understood by the French readers specific of the "numerical cards of the suits" but one could also accept grammaticaly that the word "livrées" meant originally the court cards : "principally when a player's hand contains cards of every suit with few trumps"...

(4) Old French : "the Amazons" - presumably Queens.

(5) "Refaire" must refer to the possibility the cards might be redealt if the other players take pity on the holder of the bad hand with few trumps.


Paragraphe B :

The beauty of this game is to have many trumps [1] and principally the high ones [2] - along with the World, the Fool and the Bagat [3], and a few Kings: because with trumps one overcomes all the efforts of the four suits(4), when one makes voids in them [5]. And by means of the World, Math, Bagat and the Kings, one is paid as many tokens [6] as one can win by playing them, so they are called "Tarots par excellence" [7]. And whenever they appear in the game, tribute must be paid for them, or they themselves are forced to pay a ransom if they fall into the hands of their enemies, in other words a player who loses one of them has to pay a token to each opponent [8].



Comment:

[1] "force triomphes" = many trumps

[2] "les hautes" [de Triomphes] = the high Trumps, probably the XXI, XX, XIX, XVIII, etc.

[3] "le Monde, le Math[a] et le Bagat" - corresponding to the 21, the excuse and the 1 or "petit" of modern French Tarot, which are known as the three "bouts" (ends).[a]Math from Matto (Italian)=Fool?, Bagat from Bagatto (Italian) = Magician

[4] The old French "les quatre peintures" is another typical expression of "les quatre couleurs" = the four suits.
.
[5] "Une renonce" here is a void - a suit in which one has no cards (not a revoke or infraction). When such a suit is led, one can play a
trump, capturing any suit cards played to the trick.
Two posssibilities :
a)"Faire une renonce" is to make a void, which the dealer may be able to do before the play by discarding all the cards he has in a suit.
b)Playing the last card one has in a suit might perhaps also perhaps be described as making a void.

[6] "Marque" = token, one of the gaming chips used for settlement during the game - eventually, possibly to be exchanged for money at the end of the session.

[7] Kings, World, Fool and Bagat are worth 5 card points, and each 5 card points are worth 1 token at the end of the play. But a player is *also* paid one token immediately by each opponent when playing one of these cards, provided that it wins the trick. The immediate payment is same amount that the card is worth in the final count: effectively you get paid twice. Hence these cards are called Tarots "par excellence" (superior to all others).

[8] In other words, whenever you play a "Tarot par excellence" you immediately collect one token from each opponent if it wins, but if it is captured, you pay one token to each opponent instead.



Mikeh

Translation please of the final note ... Thanks

A propos des 3 : Monde , Math et Bagat



La structure classique dite de 78 cartes : 4×14 [10+4] +22=78 sera celle des Tarots à Jouer et les Tarots dits de Marseille qui forment un ensemble cohérent en soi de 78 cartes comportant 22 sujets allégoriques (21+1 Atouts) et 56 cartes dont 16 honneurs et 40 numérales.

« Ce jeu qui est composé de soixante & dix-huict Cartes, se peut distribuer en cinq bandes,
la première & la plus noble de toutes appellée triomphes qui sont au nombre de vingt-deux :
& les quatre autres couleurs sont nommées d’espées, bastons, couppes & deniers, chacune desquelles a quatorze cartes : Sçauoir le Roy, la Royne, le Cheualier, & le Faon, qui s’appellent aussi les quatre honneurs & le reste depuis le dix iusques à laz »

(Règle des tarots de 1637 publiée par Thierry Depaulis, (probablement en usage dès 1585?)

Ce jeu qui est composé de soixante & dix-huict Cartes, se peut distribuer en cinq bandes, la première & la plus noble de toutes appellée triomphes qui sont au nombre de vingt-deux : & les quatre autres couleurs sont nommées d'espées, bastons, couppes & deniers, chacune desquelles a quatorze cartes : Sçauoir le Roy, la Royne, le Cheualier, & le Faon, qui s'appellent aussi les quatre honneurs & le reste depuis le dix iusques à laz, n'ayant pas peu de rapport à ces petites gens de la lie du peuple, qui sont beaucoup plus à charge qu'à plaisir, principallement quand il s'en rencontre de toutes les liurées auec peu de triomphes : Car alors les Roys mesmes auec leurs Amazones ny tout leur empire ne peuuent empescher vne ruine entiere au joüeur, qui n'auroit peu flechir les autres à refaire.

[p. 4]
La beauté de ce jeu est d'auoir force triomphes & principallement les hautes auec le Monde, le Math, & le Bagat, & quelques Roys : par ce qu'auec les triomphes on surmonte tous les efforts des quatres [sic] peintures, quand on y fait des renonces. Et par le moyen du Monde, Math, & Bagat, & les Roys, on se fait payer autant de marques de chacun que lon en peut leuer en joüant, à cause de quoy on les nomme Tarots par excellence. Et toutes les fois qu'ils paroissent dans le jeu, il leur faut payer le tribut ou eux mesmes sont contraints de payer la rençon s'ils tombent entre les mains de leurs ennemis, c'est à dire que celuy qui les perd donne vne marque à chacun

http://www.tarock.info/depaulis.htm



Note personnelle :
Ultérieurement Monde Math et Bagat s seront nommées les 3 BOUTS. Ce n'est donc qu'après 1634 que le Math devient l'Excuse "Cette carte est une sorte de Joker dispensant de jouer la couleur ou l’Atout demandés, mais ne pouvant pas obtenir le gain du pli. L’Excuse est imprenable mais ne doit pas être jouée au dernier pli, dans ce cas elle change automatiquement de camp (exception voir Chelem"
'
L' Excuse n'est alors plus considérée comme un Triomphe ou Atout - tout en conservant sa valeur de BOUT. Toutefois en cas de Grand Sclem, jouée en dernier après le Bagat, l' Excuse retrouve sa valeur de Triomphe car elle remporte le dernier pli. ...
"Si le joueur tentant le Chelem possède l’Excuse, celle-ci peut être jouée en carte maîtresse au dernier pli si tous les autres plis ont été acquis; dans ce cas, le Petit sera considéré comme étant au bout à l’avant dernier pli."
http://www.letarot.net/fr/rules.html

Discussion ; Old French Tarot Rules 1637

Translation please ...Mikeh? Ross?
1 Le Math est nécessairement (au sens qu'il ne peut en être autrement = nécessaire) inclus dans la liste des 22 triomphes
2. Il est systématiquement associé aux 2 autres "BOUTS" (cf. Nota): entre MONDE et BAGAT
3. Il fait partie des TAROTS PAR EXCELLENCE

Thanks

1 Le Math est nécessairement inclus dans la liste des 22 triomphes
Ce jeu qui est composé de soixante & dix-huict Cartes, se peut distribuer en cinq bandes, la première & la plus noble de toutes appellée triomphes qui sont au nombre de vingt-deux

This pack, which consists of seventy-eight cards, can be divided into five sets. The first and noblest of them all is called Trumps, of which there are twenty-two. The other four plain suits (1) are known as swords, batons, cups and coins: each of them consists of fourteen cards : namely the King, Queen, Cavalier and Jack (2), which are also called the four honours, and the remaining cards from the Ten to the Ace '
(Tarot Rules 1637 from transcription of Thierry Depaulis Translation Old French / Modern English Mc LEOD/BOUGEAREL)

2. Il est systématiquement associé aux 2 autres BOUTS (cf nota) : entre MONDE et BAGAT
La beauté de ce jeu est d'auoir force triomphes & principallement les hautes auec le Monde, le Math, & le Bagat, & quelques Roys : par ce qu'auec les triomphes on surmonte tous les efforts des quatres [sic] peintures, quand on y fait des renonces.

The beauty of this game is to have many trumps [1] and principally the high ones [2] - along with the World, the Fool and the Bagat [3], and a few Kings: because with trumps one overcomes all the efforts of the four suits(4), when one makes voids in them .
(Tarot Rules 1637 from transcription of Thierry Depaulis Translation Old French / Modern English Mc LEOD/BOUGEAREL)


3. Il fait partie des TAROTS PAR EXCELLENCE
Et par le moyen du Monde, Math, & Bagat, & les Roys, on se fait payer autant de marques de chacun que lon en peut leuer en joüant, à cause de quoy on les nomme Tarots par excellence

And by means of the World, Math, Bagat and the Kings, one is paid as many tokens [6] as one can win by playing them, so they are called "Tarots par excellence"
(Tarot Rules 1637 from transcription of Thierry Depaulis Translation Old French / Modern English Mc LEOD/BOUGEAREL)

REFERENCE / http://trionfi.com/0/p/1637.html

Nota
Les 3 Bouts ou ENDS
"Les 3 cartes les plus importantes sont les Oudlers (ou Bouts): le 21, le Petit et l’Excuse. Le 21 est bien sûr imprenable; le Petit est par contre vulnérable.""
.http://www.letarot.net/fr/rules.html

Aparte sous forme de Note personnelle :
Ultérieurement Monde Math et Bagat s seront nommées les 3 BOUTS. Ce n'est donc qu'après 1634 que le Math devient l'Excuse "Cette carte est une sorte de Joker dispensant de jouer la couleur ou l’Atout demandés, mais ne pouvant pas obtenir le gain du pli. L’Excuse est imprenable mais ne doit pas être jouée au dernier pli, dans ce cas elle change automatiquement de camp (exception voir Chelem"
'
L' Excuse n'est alors plus considérée comme un Triomphe ou Atout - tout en conservant sa valeur de BOUT. Toutefois en cas de Grand Sclem, jouée en dernier après le Bagat, l' Excuse retrouve sa valeur de Triomphe car elle remporte le dernier pli. ...
"Si le joueur tentant le Chelem possède l’Excuse, celle-ci peut être jouée en carte maîtresse au dernier pli si tous les autres plis ont été acquis; dans ce cas, le Petit sera considéré comme étant au bout à l’avant dernier pli."
http://www.letarot.net/fr/rules.html

Recommended reading
http://www.enssib.fr/bibliotheque-numer ... oueurs.pdf

An interesting thesis about the sociology of the players and gamblers as well as the birth of Rules of game first as strategies to win then to codify the game

It is important to note that Tarot as Chess and others games were played by people.
Usually history focuses mainly on it's origin and less on the public reached.
Tarot as a game is a living tradition still strong in the South of France Provence.

I do not consider tarot as a game as a minor tradition.

I give equal importance to Lists written by monks such as the Sermones or to the ancient rules of tarot as a game

That's also why I consider of interest educated persons in Pythagorism aware of Nicomaque of Gerase's Arithmology or the public of gamblers of the tarot rules as game

I am not sure what you wanted translated, Alain; I assume it is the "personal note". Here is how I read what you said:

Personal note:
Later World Math and Bagat will be named the 3 ENDS. So it was only after 1634 that Math becomes the excuse "This card is a kind of Joker for avoiding playing a suit card or Atout demanded but cannot win the trick. The excuse is impregnable but must not be played at the last trick; in this case it changes camp automatically (see exception Slam".
'
The excuse is no longer considered a triumph or Atout - while retaining its value as an END. However in case of a Grand Slam, played last after Bagat, the Excuse recovers its Triumph value since it wins the last trick. ...
"If the player attempting the slam has the Excuse, it can be played as a master card [carte maîtresse] in the last trick if all other tricks were won, in which case, the Little One [Petit] will be considered as being at the end at the penultimate trick."

I get from this that the Math becomes a trump of some sort (I am not sure about the meaning of "carte maîtresse", if it means "highest ranking card" or simply "trump card") if played in the last trick as part of a Grand Slam and the Bagat wins the next to last trick. I also understand that if played in the last trick in other circumstances, it is lost to the player who played it.

In English the word "trump" is defined as "a playing card of the suit chosen to rank above the others, which can win a trick where a card of a different suit has been led." The Fool has that power only if played in the last trick as part of a Grand Slam. Otherwise it is not a trump.

Yet according to the Regle:

1 Le Math est nécessairement (au sens qu'il ne peut en être autrement = nécessaire) inclus dans la liste des 22 triomphes
2. Il est systématiquement associé aux 2 autres "BOUTS" (cf. Nota): entre MONDE et BAGAT
3. Il fait partie des TAROTS PAR EXCELLENCE

i.e.

1. The Fool is necessarily (in the sense that it cannot be otherwise = necessary) included in the list of 22 triumphs.
2. It is systematically associated with 2 other "ENDS" (see note): between MONDE and BAGAT.
4. It is part of the TAROTS PAR EXCELLENCE.

If so, then the French "triomphe" is not translatable as "trump", since in English a trump necessarily beats any of the cards of the non-trump suits. It is possible that "trump" in English corresponds to "carte maitresse" in French. I do not know what the trump suit in Bridge would be called in French. It is also possible that "carte maitresse" means something else. I would like very much to know what "carte maitresse" means in French card-playing terminology.

I have probably been sloppy if I said at some point that the Fool is not technically a triumph, in the sense of "triomphe" as defined in the first two paragraphs of the Regle of 1634. I should have said that technically it is not a trump, in the sense in which that word is used in English, except in one particular circumstance, at least in France of the first half of the 17th century.

I am not clear on why Alain says that the Fool did not have the role of Excuse until after 1634. I have been assuming that it had this role in late 15th- early 16th century Italy. I have also been assuming that we don't know if the exception of the "Grand Slam" was in effect in Italy of that time period. Am I wrong?

As I understand it, you cannot play the fool as the first card in a trick.

But if a player got all tricks till the last trick (so nearly a grand slam) and has as his last card still the Fool on hand and then plays the Fool as the first card of the last trick (he can't play anything else, there's no choice), it works as a trump (and the grand slam is then fulfilled).
Cause of the rule, that you cannot play the Fool as the first card of the trick, there was no opportunity to play it earlier (cause the winner of the last trick leads to the next trick). It is a necessary exception of the rule, otherwise the rules wouldn't work.