Tarot History Forum

Do you suppose, then, that the dancing figure in the World is wearing a hair shirt? (Assuming the wiki description is accurate.)

Hard to imagine dancing in one of those.

The dancing female figure is different, the similarity, as far as it goes, is to the caped male figures.

Italy, Florence. 1306.

AR Fiorino or Popolino (18mm, 1.58 gm).
Di Guidingo, Di Borgo and Di Puccio, mint magistrates.
Lily of Florence. Around: + FLOR ENTIA
John the Baptist standing, oak leaves at sides; star above. Around: * + S IOHANNES
Bernocchi 949; Biaggi 788.



(From at least the 16th century John the Baptist was identified with the astrological sign of Aquarius, the Tarot de Marseille star card may thus share several elements with the above coin, central figure of John Baptist/Aquarius, the Star above and two bushes either side).

Italia, Firenze. Republic. 1189-1532. AV Fiorino (3.51 g). Batturo 1332-1348.

/ Giglio di Firenze
/ San Giovanni Battista, tre mezzelune sopra la manno del santo.
Lily of Florence
St. John the Baptist; three crescent moons in legend.



AR Barile (3.26 gm). Francesco di Francesco di Lotterio Davanzati, moneyer.
+*FLOR-ENTIA*, lily of Florence
S* IOAN-NES*B*, Christ and St. John the Baptist confronted, in baptismal scene; arms and M in legend.
Bernocchi 3539.

debra wrote:Do you suppose, then, that the dancing figure in the World is wearing a hair shirt? (Assuming the wiki description is accurate.)

Hard to imagine dancing in one of those.

Whereas the image of St. John may be emblematic of a specific city, such as Florence; the nude female may be taken for an allegory of the generic platonic City, augustinian City of God or biblical New Jerusalem, the City/Soulas woman and bride, as the anima mundi is the bride of God so is our soul the bride of Christ and the City the bride of the triumphal King.

The city merited being sung of and written about becuase the city was a woman and, as such, was the very stuff of poetry. In its guise as a female, the city was caught in a tension between praise and blame; it was the place of all temptations and all excesses but also of all pleasures and rewards. It was both Jerusalem and Babylon, Eve and Mary.Cerquiglini-Toulet, p.96

"For such Vertue is begotten in Princes, that their verie presence hath power to turn a village to a Citie, and to make a Citie appear great as a Kingdome. Behold how glorious a flower, Happinesse is, but how fading. The Minutes (that lackey at the heeles of Time) run not faster away then do our joyes. What tongue could have exprest the raptures on which the soule of the Citie was carried beyond itself, for the space of many houres? What wealth could have allurde her to have closed her eies, at the comming of her King, and yet see, her Bridegrome is but stept from her, and in a Minute (nay in shorter time, then a thought can be borne) is she made a Widdow. All her consolation being now, to repeate ouer by roate those Honors, which lately she had perfectly by hart: And to tell of those joyes, which but euen now, shee reallie behelde; yet thus of her absent, beloved, do I heare her gladly and heartily speaking." Thomas Dekker: Pages 66 and 67

SteveM

quotes from:

Jacqueline Cerquiglini-Toulet:
The Color of Melancholy

Thomas Decker:
http://special-1.bl.uk/treasures/festiv ... rFest=0238

Image of Eve from the doors of the Florentine Baptistry.

SteveM wrote:

Image of Eve from the doors of the Florentine Baptistry.

The figure of Eve is from the panel on Genesis, part of the Bronze frame on the east doors of the Florentine Baptistry by Ghiberti. The image of dancing maenads is particularly found in abundance in the architecture of Florence. Ghiberti's Eve is modeled upon the dancing maenad from a Bachanalian Sarcophagus.



The sarcophagus was copied by numerous artists and its images used as models in both sculptures and paintings. For Panofsky the Bacchanalian thiasos represented upon the sarcophagus evokes, " an overpowering joy remembered by the votaries of Dionysus as a transitory experience in life and accepted by them as a promise of unending felicity after death." In the 'reconstructed' Orphic theology of the renaissance the dancing maenad was taken as a symbol of the eternal paradise to come whose joys are but momenarily experienced in this life, a glimpse afforded by the ecstatic rites of Dionysus.[Rubinstein]

The reliefs of the sarcophagus were reproduced upon the Camino Della Iola as a wedding allegory for Federigo and his wife Battista Sforza, married in 1460.



The marble chimney piece is in the Ducal Palace of Urbino. The Sarcophagus is currently in the British Museum. Drawings of it appear among the model books and works of artists from the beginning of the 15th century. It was at the Santa Maria Maggiore in Rome until near the end of the 16th century when it was restored and moved by Pope Sixtus V to his Villa Montalto. An essay on the sarcophagus appears in 'The Classical Tradition', the British Museum Yearbook 1, entitled 'A Bacchic sarcophagus in the Renaissance' by R. O. Rubinstein, where both Ghiberti's 'Eve' and the Urbino fireplace are illustrated as examples of its influence and use as a model. In the fireplace the lower of the two friezes, above the figures of Hercules and Iole, reproduces the front relief of sarcophagus with some changes. Instead of the triumphal procession of Bacchus and Ariadne of the sarcophogus, the Camino frieze interprets it as a Triumph of Love, and the snake of the sarcophagus has here been transformed into a scrolling ribbon.

It has often been noted of the Tarot de Marseille world card figure that there is some resemblance to figures of Fortuna. Of Ghiberti's Eve too, modeled upon this dancing maenad from the Bacchic sarcophagus, Rubinstein notes: "She holds a spindle with a broken shaft in her left hand, and her veil, encircling her in a spiral, billows out like Fortuna's sail."

SteveM
ref: "A Bacchic sarcophagus in the Renaissance" by Ruth Olitsky Rubinstein, published in the British Museum Yearbook 1 [The Classical Tradition] 1976.

The marble fireplace also appears in "The Ducal Palace of Urbino. Its Architecture and Decoration." by P. Rotondi, 1969.

Yes James,I m agree it s too funky in here...

1-Since Eliphas Levi wrote "Dogme et Ritual de Haute Magie" the history of Tarot and by extension the one of the Tarot de Marseilles,did a new turn.A new turn of an endless caravan of misunderstood (His predecessor was the biggest liar of all times...Court de Gebelin ).
After him a caravan of occults point of view about Tarot de Marseille began and follow till now...
2-Must be say I think,that all began too much earlier.
Just for have both an a startpoint I want to place a "crossroad" milestone,as it was the year of 1499 when frenchmen conquested Milan,knew the Tarocchi brought to France and "entirely" reworked it.
They first named and numbered the cards,redisigned "all" the iconography of them and finally design for the very first time the back of the cards.
I don t want to bore you,but just see the angel of TEMPEREANCE card.
3-A brief glance of historical facts,show that first the Arabs when conquested Sicily and Spain,brought the 56 Minors.
Then as early XIIII century in the north of Italy someone invented the 22 with an strong and strictly allegorical iconography.
Thus it s spread around the north of Italy on several courts.
Here I think we must keep in mind that at that time the Tarot as known were an strictly card game and only known by the nobility.
4-Basically on a broad sense was a synopsis of Virtues and Vices,ranks both celestial and the one of ordinary power. (Both also mixed as usual),and also a social class rank
On a philosophical level is a mix of Christian Apocaliptic vision and Greek heritage there within.
5-Arabs added a deep background with regard to the meaning of numbers.
A point must be put here and is as Arabs can t show figures,theirs Honours aren t figured.
6-Where Arabs learned that knowledge ?
As the first Christians so also the first Fathers of the Church (Origenes,Clemente et cetera)
In Alexandria,Egypt,where at the time between I and III century an awesome mix of cultures took place.
Virtually all the cultures of that time were "there".
The library of Alexandria was the greatest of this time and tolerance between beliefs really existed.
Even the Celts were there...
7-As a result,the first Christian were looking for a "body" for theirs Spiritual beliefs and also of course a new philosophy language,a corpus to mix with theirs beliefs,so to try to bring to other people a more familiar vision.
Think for example in the Apostle John,his Gospel beginning for not say his Apocalypse...btw
8-Then each one return to his country,mostly Europe,and began to work a common corpus with the sources I mentioned before.
After the first Nicea Council the environment changed dramatically...
So that philosophers had to hide them and theirs beliefs,so began the Occult current.
To occult it was and surely the intention (Think in Alchemy) that the "newcomers" start to misunderstand absolutely all.
The true philosophers continue on a secret way because the Catholic Church were very powerful,and things evolved in silent but spoke loudly at the Romanesque Art and then Gothic in Abbey and Cathedral construction.
9-After the downfall of the Templar Order in march of 1314,the members fast spreads to many countries and also England and Scotland have many Templar tombs as a prove of this.
Many new orders were found after this,and if you compares that date so 1314 with the born of the Italian Tarot i think we aren t far to consider a connection between them.
And if take along the date of 1499 when Tarot de Marseilles born also...
Templar Order were to much infused with Sufi and Alexandria philosophical roots.
10-Since that and again the wheel continue turning and giving two opposites streams.
The strictly historical fact true (very useful to clarify think ...),the Occult from the Rosicrucian Order and the one of Eliphas Levi then,and the silent hidden current of the true Corpus of the philosophical source of tarot that flows till now.
11-So why is too difficult to find these source for understand the tarot iconography ?
I think just because the cards aren t watched enough.Simple as that.
If Jean Dodal (just for some examples) numbered IIX the LE PENDV card,I don t need to think about negligence instead of a clear intention.
If XIII figure has victims behind and ahead and there we have a Pope and a King (the same that burned Jacques de Molay Maestre of the Templar order ) so here we have something to start with.
Of course only and just as I see btw...

My best regards,

Eugim

There are indeed thousands or concurrent events that each have their direct and indirect influences on one the other. This does not mean, however, that there are causal or intended connections between them, nor even symbolic references (though these are of course also possible).

To pick up the last point about XIII Death: that a crowned figure and a bishop's or pope's head are both included may also simply show that no station in life protects one from Death, the great leveller of all human rank and station.

JMD :
XIII,So Death has victims behind and ahead her so as a perpetual work I think ...
(BTW,Death as Her ... Uhmmm... )

eugim