Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:Where does "tarocch" mean "bloodline" or "tree of life", and why would they spell it like that, when using the "h" after a "c" in Italian serves the sole purpose of making sure that the reader knows the "c" is hard just before an "e" or an "i" (i.e. a plural)? (that's why "tarocco" becomes "tarocchi"). In other words, why a double "cc" with an "h"? If it's not Italian, why a double c?

Its Milanese dialect:

The Vocabolario milanese-italiano-francese by Eugenio Cappelletti (1848) gives as Italian and French synonyms of the Milanese Tarocch:

Tarocch. Tarocco, germini, minchiate. Tarots.

Tarocch. Borra, pedale, toppo, tronco. Tranc, grosse souche de bois, f., chantier, chicot m.

Some definitions from Florio and Cotgrove:

Tronco: a trunk, a stock, a log, a block, a stump, a stem without boughes. Also a bodie without a head. Also a troncheon or a bat. Also a loggerheaded felow, a block-headed dunce, a heauie-nole.

Pedale: a foote, a base, a foundation, the stocke or roote of a tree or any thing else, a foote-stale, a foote-stoole, a supporter, a stake or forke to beare vp any vine, hops, or trees, a prop, or stay. Also the measure or space of a foote. Also a mans stocke, wealth, or substance. Also socks, or thin dancing pumps. Vsed also for a mans off-spring, stocke, lineage, blood, or descent.

Toppo: a counterbuffe, a counter shocke at tilt./ Related to Toppáre ~ to counter-shocke or giue a counter-buffe. Also to finde or meete withall by chance. Also to snatch or take away. Also to set, to cast at, to plaie at or hold the by or vie at any game namely at dice. Also to put to a dore and make it fast with a haspe or latch or wodden locke. / A tóppogiuócare a tóppo, to play at gresco or hazzard, and then to set at euery chance or cast, or to set and cast at the by.

Chantier: m. A Wood-mongers, or Tymber-sellers, yard; also, a Staulder, or Wood-pile; also, a Vine-supporting pole, or stake (whether it stand vpright, or lye, as a crosse barre, ouerthwart; and (hence) also, as Treillis, or a rayle for the same purpose; also, a Stoope, or Pile, vnderpropping the banke of a riuer; also, a Gauntrie, or Stilling, for Hogs heads, &c. to stand on; also, a Tresle to saw Tymber on.

Chicot. A stub, or stumpe; or as Chiquot: m. A scale in the root, or end of a nayle; also, a sprig, or shoot of a tree; also, the stumpe of a tooth

Souche: f. The stock, trunke, or bodie of a tree; a log; also, the maine stock, or direct line of a pedegree, progenie, or familie; also, as Souchet; or, the root of the wild, or English Galingale. Souche commune. The descent of many brothers or cousens, from one father, mother, grandfather, or grandmother. Tant que tige fait souche, elle ne branche iamais.

SteveM wrote: Tarocch. Tarocco, germini, minchiate. Tarots.

Tarocch. Borra, pedale, toppo, tronco. Tranc, grosse souche de bois, f., chantier, chicot m.

Some definitions from Florio and Cotgrove:

Tronco: a trunk, a stock, a log, a block, a stump, a stem without boughes. Also a bodie without a head. Also a troncheon or a bat.

Isaia 11:1 ED uscirà un Rampollo del tronco d'Isai, ed una pianterella spunterà dalle sue radici.

Esaïe 11:1 Mais il sortira un rejeton du tronc d'Isaï, et un surgeon croîtra de ses racines.

Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

Isaiah 11:1 et egredietur virga de radice Iesse et flos de radice eius ascendet

From the latin word virga comes the French word verge (rod, stick, wand, penis) and the first character of the trump series hold what was known as the rod (verge) of Jacob (Patriarch of the 12 tribes of Israel who was 77 years old when he travelled to see his uncle and his daughters Leah and Rachel; a type of Christ, as shepherd and through connection with the anointed stone, bethel (maisondieu), following his dream of angels on a ladder, descending and ascending like the ranks of the suit cards.)

Also a loggerheaded felow, a block-headed dunce, a heauie-nole.

Thus not only playing on tarocch as tree of our salvation (77 generations split 21/56) but additionally as the 'game of the fool.' 21/56 + fool.

SteveM wrote: Its Milanese dialect:

The Vocabolario milanese-italiano-francese by Eugenio Cappelletti (1848) gives as Italian and French synonyms of the Milanese Tarocch:

Tarocch. Tarocco, germini, minchiate. Tarots.

Tarocch. Borra, pedale, toppo, tronco. Tranc, grosse souche de bois, f., chantier, chicot m.

You could have saved yourself the trouble by sticking with the first definition.

Homonyms are common in every language, and a dialectical dictionary isn't recommended to base an attempt at scientific etymology on. In other words, there is no necessary relationship, whatever bits you cherry pick to base your story on, between these two words and the two spellings of these words. They spelled the words the way they heard them.

The dictionary is certainly late enough (1848) to allow for both identical homonyms to have developed, as well as to be unreliable for the state of things like a dialect in the year 1500.

"Tarocco" also means a kind of orange in Sicilian - can you squeeze that meaning in somewhere? Maybe that was the true fruit of the Tree of Life?

But the "idiot" part is accurate, and probably relates to the original etymology.

Steve, if you are seriously proposing this scenario, I can't continue this discussion anywhere but the Unicorn Terrace.

Ross

SteveM wrote:From the latin word virga comes the French word verge (rod, stick, wand, penis) and the first character of the trump series hold what was known as the rod (verge) of Jacob

Ephesian, Ephesus
Boon companion and roisterer but used less generously by Shakespeare, whom the apostle Paul warned to beware the ‘sleight [1596, jugglery] of men’, not to fall back into ‘lasciviousness’ and ‘lusts’ but to ‘put on the new man’ (Eph 4).

Ephesians 4:14 That we be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

In Greek:
Ephesians 4:14 ινα μηκετι ωμεν νηπιοι κλυδωνιζομενοι και περιφερομενοι παντι ανεμω της διδασκαλιας εν τη κυβεια των ανθρωπων εν πανουργια προς την μεθοδειαν της πλανης

The Greek word translated as ‘sleight’ in KJ is κυβεια ~ kubeia from kubos, a cube, ie a die for playing; gambling, used figuratively for artifice, fraud, to sleight (juggle). The 21 points of a die, steps of a ladder, to heaven or to hell.

Thus 'Old Adam' ~ 'Ephesian Juggler'; thus our juggler represents not the lowest estate of man in a ranks of man, but an everyman, all man as damned man, fallen man; our juggler however can find salvation becoming the new man (charioteer).

Ephesians 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, Christ:
Ephesians 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Understanding the nature of the two loves (VI), the wise man becomes the New Man, the triumphal prince,(VII) worthy citizen and groom of the celestial city, the bride (XXI) - thus through the tarot is woven the theme of the hierogamos, the sacred marriage, a tale of two loves, cupiditas and caritas; of two venuses, or two cities.

It is a tale of fall (XV) and restoration (XXI), of the beginning of judgment - exile and death (XVI) and final judgement - resurrection into eternal life through God's caritas (xx). It is salvation through love, a procession from Old Adam to New Adam - from a worthless man (bagatelle) to a worthy citizen and groom (parvus mundum) of the city of God and bride (XXI).

Finding the truth in love, old adam become the 'new man' (vii), from a man of vice to a man of virtue.

Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote: Homonyms are common in every language,

Homonyms - the stuff that puns are made of; poets of the period loved puns then as many do now. We know at least two poets of the period that made cards games - and one of the earliest type games with the cards are literary ones (appropriatti). Playing with puns in a game, is it really that unfeasable?

Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:But the "idiot" part is accurate, and probably relates to the original etymology.

So you accept the tarocch=tronco=idiot part but not the tarocch=tronco=geneological tree part. So we are only to earch out and accept those things which verify our preconceptions...

SteveM wrote:
It is a tale of fall (XV) and restoration (XXI), of the beginning of judgment - exile and death (XVI) and final judgement - resurrection into eternal life through God's caritas (xx). It is salvation through love, a procession from Old Adam to New Adam - from a worthless man (bagatelle) to a worthy citizen and groom (parvus mundum) of the city of God and bride (XXI).

Finding the truth in love, old adam become the 'new man' (vii), from a man of vice to a man of virtue.

Thus it appears to me we have an orthodox narrative of Christian salvation; so while I reject the absolute statement that no numberolgy (if meant as number symbolism) and astrology informed aspects of the narrative content, and the meaningless 'person of average education statement, I support Marco's proposition to include that it was a narrative originally informed by the Roman Catholic Religion.

SteveM wrote:

SteveM wrote:
It is a tale of fall (XV) and restoration (XXI), of the beginning of judgment - exile and death (XVI) and final judgement - resurrection into eternal life through God's caritas (xx). It is salvation through love, a procession from Old Adam to New Adam - from a worthless man (bagatelle) to a worthy citizen and groom (parvus mundum) of the city of God and bride (XXI).

Finding the truth in love, old adam become the 'new man' (vii), from a man of vice to a man of virtue.

Thus it appears to me we have an orthodox narrative of Christian salvation; so while I reject the absolute statement that no numberolgy (if meant as number symbolism) and astrology informed aspects of the narrative content, and the meaningless 'person of average education statement, I support Marco's proposition to include that it was a narrative originally informed by the Roman Catholic Religion.

Okay, so you would agree with "It was designed by a genius with the most obscure and recondite knowledge, but able to be understood by an illiterate peasant". ?

Meaning, anybody could know the order of the trumps and the allegory of the game, and that no degree of education was required.

Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:

SteveM wrote:

SteveM wrote:
It is a tale of fall (XV) and restoration (XXI), of the beginning of judgment - exile and death (XVI) and final judgement - resurrection into eternal life through God's caritas (xx). It is salvation through love, a procession from Old Adam to New Adam - from a worthless man (bagatelle) to a worthy citizen and groom (parvus mundum) of the city of God and bride (XXI).

Finding the truth in love, old adam become the 'new man' (vii), from a man of vice to a man of virtue.

Thus it appears to me we have an orthodox narrative of Christian salvation; so while I reject the absolute statement that no numberolgy (if meant as number symbolism) and astrology informed aspects of the narrative content, and the meaningless 'person of average education statement, I support Marco's proposition to include that it was a narrative originally informed by the Roman Catholic Religion.

Okay, so you would agree with "It was designed by a genius with the most obscure and recondite knowledge, but able to be understood by an illiterate peasant". ?

Meaning, anybody could know the order of the trumps and the allegory of the game, and that no degree of education was required.

Why a genius? - An ordinary well educated poet pedagogue of a North Italian courts, many of whom were multi-lingual with a knowlege of Greek as well as Latin, well capable of making puns in a variety of languages. Perfectly well acquainted with the role of love in Christian Salvation, I don't think it was all that obscure. Of a poets education we have access to what they often liked to proclaim for themselves, as I stated in a post above:

The earliest triumphal cards appear in the Northern Italian courts where we find some of the great humanist pedagogues of the period; and while we do not know who created the triumphs/tarot we know of others who created card games such as Boiardo or Fernando de la Torre who studied in Florence "...Y que es del saber de Salamon, que de Aristotiles, que de Platon, que de Terencio, que de Socratres, que de Boecio, que de Lucan, que de Titus Libio, e que de Valerio e otros singulars filosofos e ystoriadores." and is able to quote from Plato's republic. So why not 'messages' (references) that someone educated in the tradition of the poet philosophers would recognise? With the education of a de meun or a chaucer or a boccaccio or a dante or a torre or a boiardo or any of the poets "...Yo ley en el Caton, en Dante, el Ovidio en Virgilio, en Platon, en el Omero en el Novato, en Rogel en Policrato en Ricardo en Celon, en Socarates, en Terencio, Marco, Seneca, Lucano, Cicero, Valerio, Quintiliano, Juvenal, Oracio… » who would be able to recognise cross references between various literary souces and to make them. And would know for example that the ubiquitous phrase "God is a circle, whose centre is everywhere, and circumference nowhere" that runs like refrain through the centuries in the works of neo-platonic and hermetic authors, is ascribed to Plato by de Meun in Roman de Rose, but to Hermes Trimegistus by Alaine de Lille.

When reading such lists we have to realise they represent an ideal, they exist as a motif among poets claiming some relationship to each other and these exemplars; many who list Plato for example had probably never actually read him; in the case of Torre though, we know he had some familiarity with Plato as he quotes from Plato's Republic in his works; a work he may have become familiar with while a student in Florence (it was an important text in the propogandal polemics between Milan and Florence).

As the card game became disseminated, the narrative wasn't understood, thus numbers were included, no one has claimed the narrative was widely understood, in fact we know it wasn't becaause numbers had to be added, and we still don't understand it today. Why are you claiming that illiterate peasants with no education could understand it? If not, who has, what's your point? Is it because of my statement about 'average education'? I meant the definition was to vague to have meaning, thus my reply to the statement as I have quoted above, not that no education was needed. What was 'average education' in 15th century Italy? How do we judge what they were capable of understanding or not>I think I posted several thousand words in answer to that one over on Ltarot - I still probably have it saved somewhere. However, we do know even illiterate peasants enjoyed a good pun, especially bawdy one's, preachers even made use of such plays on bawdy puns verge, virgin and penis in their sermons, as I have already referenced in another thread.

Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote: How about then: "There is no esoteric, alchemical, kabbalistic, numerological, geomantic, astrological, heretical or magical narrative intended in the original set of trumps."

With the word "intended" we also take care of Prudence's concern about what somebody might have seen in the trumps, whether intended or not.

Excellent! Thank you Ross

Marco

Does SteveM's basic premise of linguistic punning not fit within the premise of an allegorical hierarchy?

12. There is but One singularly true defining "meaning" to the trumps, without roots, subtext, allusion, or multiplicity, and having only One singular purpose, (gaming) to the exclusion of all others.

OnePotato wrote:Does SteveM's basic premise of linguistic punning not fit within the premise of an allegorical hierarchy?

12. There is but One singularly true defining "meaning" to the trumps, without roots, subtext, allusion, or multiplicity, and having only One singular purpose, (gaming) to the exclusion of all others.

Great OP! I'll add that right away!

Oh.

robert wrote:

OnePotato wrote:Does SteveM's basic premise of linguistic punning not fit within the premise of an allegorical hierarchy?

12. There is but One singularly true defining "meaning" to the trumps, without roots, subtext, allusion, or multiplicity, and having only One singular purpose, (gaming) to the exclusion of all others.

Great OP! I'll add that right away!

Oh.

OK, good, because I think it makes a good summary statement.
It makes the whole job neater.
But I'd also like to hear some proof and see some evidence against it if you don't actually choose to add it to the list.

Perhaps I should soften the language a little:
12. When the single person who invented the tarot did so, there was but One singularly true defining "meaning" to the trumps, without roots, subtext, allusion, or multiplicity, and having only One singular purpose, (gaming) to the exclusion of all others.