Preußisches Landesrecht 1309 (or 1310) ... forgery ?

#11
The following text is from a German book from 1599 ... the relevant part is written by Caspar Schütz, who wrote the chronicle till 1525.

Historia rerum Prussicarum: warhaffte vnd eigentliche Beschreibung der Lande Preussen, jhrer gelegenheit, namen vnd teilunge, von den eltesten Königen an, derselben Regierung vnd Heidnischer Auffopfferung, auch vom Ursprung des deudschen Ordens, vnd was sich bey eines jeglichen Hohmeisters leben vnd Regierung zugetragen hat. Hierzu ist kommen eine Continuation der Preusischen Chronica, von der zeit an, da M. Caspar Schützen Historia endet, nemlich von dem 1525. Jahr, biß auff gegenwertige zeit
Caspar Schütz, David Chyträus
Grosianis, 1599 - 1138 pages
https://books.google.de/books?id=Cj9hAA ... en&f=false

Cards and dice are mentioned twice (p. 53 and p. 107).

1.
At. p. 53 is a prohibition of dice and card games in 1309, given by the Hochmeister of the German Knight order as part of Preußische Landesordnung.


2.
At p 107 is a long wild story about knight ghosts at the Christburg, which took place in the context of the battle at Tannenberg in July 1410 (then lost by the knight order)
(this is somehow a remarkable story, but not my theme here)

Biographies of the author ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caspar_Sch%C3%BCtz
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caspar_Sch%C3%BCtz
http://de.wikisource.org/wiki/ADB:Sch%C3%BCtz,_Kaspar

The 3rd biography gives critical words to the work:
Da S. in seiner Einleitung gar viel von der Mangelhaftigkeit der bisherigen Geschichtschreibung, von ihrer ganz ungenügenden Kritik und insbesondere von ihrer Unkenntniß der Urkunden, der Acten und Recesse spricht und gerade diesen Mangel tief beklagt, so hat man lange, weil ihm gerade in seiner amtlichen Stellung actenmäßiges Material zu unbeschränkter Einsicht und Verfügung stehen konnte, sein Werk mit überaus günstigen Augen angesehen. Als aber Th. Hirsch für seine Ausgabe der Danziger Chroniken in den Scriptores rerum Prussicarum auch die dortigen archivalischen Quellen mit dem, was S. daraus entnommen haben wollte, verglich, stellte sich bald heraus, daß er genau so wie seine von ihm getadelten Vorgänger gearbeitet, daß er sogar seine „Recesse“ nicht aus den Originalen, sondern immer erst aus zweiter und dritter Hand entnommen hat: er ist vollkommen seinen Vorgängern gleichzustellen, auch seine Angaben sind durchweg nur dann anzunehmen, wenn sie durch anderweitige Ueberlieferung sicher gestützt werden.
One is advised to take the information from Schütz only as true, if there is evidence from a second hand.

The first text (p. 53) reports about Siegfried von Feuchtwangen,
Hochmeister des Deutschen Ordens, * um 1275, † 5. 3. 1311 Marienburg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siegfried_von_Feuchtwangen
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siegfried_von_Feuchtwangen
http://www.deutsche-biographie.de/pnd118933841.html

The last biography offers the opinion: " Der Erlaß einer Landesordnung für Preußen (1309) wird ihm jedenfalls zu Unrecht zugeschrieben – es handelt sich um eine frühneuzeitliche Fälschung."
This tells, that the "Landesordnung für Preußen" is a "frühneuzeitliche Fälschung" (a forgery, possibly from 15th century) and not made in 1309.

Far better information with much more details and many references is offered by the biography of Werner Uhlich.
http://www.geschichte-feuchtwangen.de/B ... htm#Inhalt
If I understand him correctly, he doesn't express the opinion, that the Preußische Landesordnung would be a forgery.
He wrote in 2001, so this is a relative modern report.

He writes:
Die Landesordnung von 1310 des Siegfried von Feuchtwangen

Die Landesordnung Siegfrieds von Feuchtwangen ist im Wortlaut der Arbeit von Caspar Schütz, Historia rerum Prussicarum, S. 54 - 55, von 1592 entnommen, wie sie auch Brackenhausen 1726 übernommen hat, da Schütz als zuverlässiger Historiker gilt. Sie umfaßt offensichtlich nicht alle Artikel dieser Landesordnung, die einigen Historikern zufolge angeblich 40 Artikel enthalten haben soll. Voigt bringt in seiner Geschichte Preußens um 1830 insgesamt 30 Artikel zusammen, die er Simon Grunau entnommen hat; er bezweifelt jedoch selbst die Echtheit einiger Artikel dieser Landesordnung.
... more at http://www.geschichte-feuchtwangen.de/B ... nd2121.htm

He states, that the report presents 21 articles, but that some historians believe, that there were 40. He refers to Voigt, who had 30, but who also had doubts, that each article would be correct.

The period of the first decade of 14th century was very specific for knight orders ... the Templers were accused, put to prison, tortured and murdered, caused by the interests of the French king, who wished to unite the knight orders (and their many possessions) under his command. A king, who is accused to have murdered popes to get them to Avignon.
False accusations from his side and also from the papal side and also from other sides (especially Poland and the archbishop of Riga) were rather common and just part of a juristic war in the region and "forgery" was an instrument. And naturally the knights themselves weren't really innocent vitims. So it's indeed a very complicated question, what's right and what's wrong. Likely all would have lied for their own favor.

Schütz had written a Latin version before, which I didn't find online. This version is from the publication of 1599 and I saw it called a "bad translation". Point 18 is about dice and playing cards.
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I naturally don't know after this study, if this note is of relevance as a "true date for early playing cards", and if it should be, I also don't know what the relation is to the document, that van der Linde had detected once, which involved laws used by Werner von Orseln. Possibly both relate to the same document, but this seems not plausible, as statutes from Werner of Orseln and a Preußische Landesordnung from Feuchtwangen are two different things.

Van der Linde had noted 15th century, which is definitely wrong for Werner von Orseln (1324-30), so his source might have been confused anyway.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Werner von Orseln 1324-30

#12
Geschichte Preussens: von den ältesten Zeiten bis zum Untergange der Herrschaft des deutschen Ordens, Volume 4
Johannes Voigt
Gebr. Bornträger, 1830 - Prussia (Germany)
https://books.google.de/books?id=AccBAA ... &q&f=false

... gives a longer commentary on the forgery question. In his list of the single points of the preußische Landesordnung (30 points for him) he doesn't note playing cards, but the Doppelspiel (a common name used only for the dice game) under point 24.
"24. Niemand soll liederliches Doppelspiel üben oder verhegen, so gering es auch seyn möge."
**************

Ernst Hennig offers "real statues of Werner of Orselen"...

Die Statuten des Deutschen Ordens
Ernst Hennig
Nicolovius, 1806 - 316 pages
https://books.google.de/books?id=OK1AAAAAcAAJ
... p. 120-123

These are written in very old German (difficult to read) and contain no material about gaming or gambling. They are rather short (perhaps not complete ?).
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Battle of Tannenberg 1410 ; theme -1377

#14
... in work ...

I wrote at viewtopic.php?f=11&t=514&p=16357&hilit=schütz#p16357:
2.
At p 107 is a long wild story about knight ghosts at the Christburg, which took place in the context of the battle at Tannenberg in July 1410 (then lost by the knight order)
(this is somehow a remarkable story, but not my theme here)
This was related to the text ....
Historia rerum Prussicarum ...
Grosianis, 1599 - 1138 pages
https://books.google.de/books?id=Cj9hAA ... en&f=false
http://www.lexikus.de/bibliothek/Die-Ge ... Christburg
https://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Andreas_ ... Christburg

Automatic translation ...
In the year 1410 on July 15th, a great battle was fought at Tanneberg between the Lords of the Cross in Prussia and Vladislav, kings of Pohlen. It ended with the defeat of the entire army of the order; the Grand Master Ulrich von Jungingen himself fell into it. The king sent his body to the brothers at Osterode, who buried him in Marienburg; but the chopped off chin with the beard was brought to Kraukau, where it is shown today (in Caspar Schützen's time).

When the Grand Master rathschlagle the rulers about this war, the Comthur von der Christburg, Andreas Sangerwitz, a German of aristocracy, faithfully advised peace; Regardless of the others, almost all voted for war, and the enemy was already in the country; which annoyed the Grand Master, and counted it in his fear and timidity. But he, who had no less heart than wit and understanding, said to him: “I have advised Your Grace to peace, as I best notice and understand, and thinks that after peace this time is best served us . But because God chooses it differently, also pleases your grace differently: so I have to follow, and I want to stand by you as manly in future battle, it goes as it will, and leave my body and life with you, as I am now faithful to peace Rathe. "Which he lived after as an honest man, and, along with the Grand Master, after he bravely held out against the enemy, stayed in the city of choice.

As this Comthur went out to battle and rode out of the castle armed, he met a canon who mocked him and asked him scornfully: "Whom he wanted to command the castle in his absence?" Then he spoke out of great anger: "You and all the devils who have advised this war! " Accordingly, when the battle happened and the Comthur perished, such devilry and ghost began to totter and rule in the castle that afterwards no one could stay or live in it. For as often as the friars ate in the castle, all the bowls and drinking dishes became full of blood; when they ate outside the castle nothing of the sort happened to them. When the servants wanted to go to the stable, they came down to the cellar and drank so much that they no longer knew what they were doing. When the cook and his servants went into the kitchen, they found horses standing in them, and they had become a stable. If the cellar master wanted to do his business in the cellar, he found nothing but harbor, pots, bellows and water troughs in the place of the wine and beer barrels; and the like was absurd in all things and places. The new Comthur, who came there from Frauenberg, felt even stranger and worse: once he was hung by the beard in the castle fountain; the other time it was placed on the topmost roof in the castle, since it could hardly be brought down without endangering one's life. For the third time his beard began to sting by itself, so that his face was violated; Nor could the fire be extinguished for him with water, and only when he ran out of the cursed castle did the fire go out. Because of this, no Comthur wanted to stay in the castle in the future, was left by every man and, according to the deceased Comthur's prophecy, was called the devil's apartment.

Two years after the battle, a citizen of Christburg, a blacksmith, returned home who had been on a pilgrimage to Rome during the time. When he heard of the ghost of the castle, he went up for a midday: be it that he wanted to know the truth for himself, or that he perhaps brought with him a sanctuary that was supposed to serve against the ghosts. On the bridge he found the Comthur's brother, who had also remained with the battle; he recognized him immediately, [274] for he had given him a child, and his name was Otto von Sangerwitz; and because he thought it was a living person, he stepped up to him and said: “Oh my father, how pleased I am that I can see you fresh and healthy; they tried to persuade me that you had been slain; I'm glad it's better than I thought And how is it in this castle when people talk about such strange things? ”The devil's ghost said to him again:“ Come with me, and you will see how people keep a house here. ”The blacksmith followed him up the spiral staircase. As they went into the first room, they found a crowd of people who did nothing else but play with dice and cards; some laughed, some cursed wounds and tortures. In the other room they sat at table, there was nothing else than Eating and drinking in whole and in half; from there they went into the great hall, where they found men, women, virgins and young journeymen; there was nothing to be heard but string playing, singing, dancing, and nothing but fornication and disgrace were seen. Now they went into the church; there was a priest standing in front of the altar as if he were going to celebrate mass; but the canons sat around in their chairs and slept. Afterwards they went out again to the castle, immediately one heard how miserably howling, weeping and screaming in the castle that the blacksmith was frightened and anxious, also thought that it couldn't be more miserable in hell. Then his godfather said to him: “Go there and show the new Grand Master what you have seen and heard! Then so was our life as you saw inside; that is the misery that followed, which you heard outside here. ”With these words he disappeared, but the blacksmith was very frightened that his feet were cold at all; nevertheless he wanted to carry out the order, went to the new Grand Master and told him everything how it happened. The Grand Master was angry, said it was a fabricated thing, to the annoyance and disgrace of his revered order, had the smith thrown into the water and drowned.
The battle of Tannenberg or Grunwald
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Grunwald
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Huck
http://trionfi.com

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