Re: The "Mantegna": 1450's Bologna?

#141
SteveM wrote:
22 Feb 2018, 07:43

Well, besides what we may think, we know in Agrippa's compendium of attributions, the Man he associates with Water signs and the Eagle with Air --
(A connection with water signs, and thus through them their co-signified houses, would suggest Man as a Man of Sorrows type connection)
There are several emblems associated with some of the Tribes, Reuben has not only the Man, but Water:
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Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: The "Mantegna": 1450's Bologna?

#142
... .-) ... right, the riddle, that we follow here, is probably not from 15th/16th century, but older. It is naturally also very doubtful, that 12 tribes from a not very important kingdom were deciding.
German wiki suggests as the origin (in a rather short way) ....

A.
Babylonische Mythologie

Wahrscheinlich liegen die religionsgeschichtlichen Wurzeln des Tetramorphs in der babylonischen Mythologie. Dort symbolisieren die vier Gestalten die vier männlichen Planetengötter. Der Stier stand für den babylonischen Stadtgott Marduk, der Löwe für den Kriegs- und Unterweltgott Nergal,[1] der Adler für den Windgott Ninurta und der Mensch für Nabu, den Gott der Weisheit. Damit einher gehen altorientalische Vorstellungen von Hütern der Weltecken[2] und von Trägern des Himmelgewölbes im ersten (Stier), vierten (Löwe), siebten (Skorpionmensch) und zehnten Sternbild (Wassermann, in dessen Nähe sich das Sternbild des Adlers befindet) des altbabylonischen Tierkreises.[3]
Marduk (god of a city) ... Taurus (indeed connected to a calf, I saw)
Nergal (god of war and underworld) ... Leo
Ninurta (god of the wind) ... Eagle
Nabu (god of wisdom) ... Man

The article speaks of old-oriental ideas, that these 4 carry the heaven in 4 corners, connected to the first zodiac sign (Taurus in that time), the 4th (Leo), the 7th as Scorpio-man and the 10th (Aquarius, which is close to the star picture Aquila ... which is nonsense, if I look at a star map; It is close to Sagittarius, but might be the end of Scorpio)

The article proceeds with ...

B. Ezekiel, Man-Lion-Eagle-Cherub (the Cherub replaces the bull)

C. John in the Apocalypse, following Ezekiel in the descriptive manner, but invidualizing the figures, .... Lion, Bull, Eagle, Man)

D. Irenäus, " den Löwen dem Johannes, den Stier dem Lukas, den Menschen dem Matthäus und den Adler dem Markus" has the idea, that the Evangelists are connected to the 4 figures. Lion = John, Lukas = bull, Matthew = Man, Markus = Eagle

E. Hieronymus (Jerome)
. Mensch: Matthäus
• Löwe: Markus
• Stier: Lukas
• Adler: Johannes

F. Augustinus
" Der Löwe entspreche Matthäus, der Stier Lukas, der Mensch Markus und der Adler Johannes."

So there were different opinions.

To this I just add my own private opinion, as follows ....

Leo = Jupiter/Zeus ... Manilius made it
Scorpio, connected commonly in astrology to death = Hades
Aquarius = Poseidon, god of the water
Taurus = a place for the women, for instance the 3 sisters of Zeus-Hades-Poseidon or just Venus, as Manilius had it
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: The "Mantegna": 1450's Bologna?

#143
There is a standard study of Ezekiel's four creatures as related to mesopotamian iconography, in Othmar Keel, Jahwe-Visionen und Siegelkunst: Eine neue Deutung der. Majestatsschilderungen in Jes, Ez 1 und 10 und Sach 4 ("Visions of Yahweh and. Seal Art: A New Interpretation of the Majestic Portrayals in Isaiah 6, Ezekiel 1 and. 10, and Zechariah 4"), Verlag Katholisches Bibelwerk, Stuttgart, 1984-85.
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Re: The "Mantegna": 1450's Bologna?

#145
As I read the German that Huck posted, it implies that Scorpio corresponds to the human being of Babylonian astrology. That is consistent with Agrippa.. If so, I agree with Steve now. Two facts (and yes, even one) are better than one hypothesis. I will have to ask my friend who thinks the opposite if she has any pre-19th century sources to back her up.

One other thing: in the alchemical emblem I posted with the four ladies with jugs on their head, the eagle for air and the lion for fire are clear enough. But what are the other two. I was thinking a golem/homunculus for earth (made from clay) and a rather obese man for water, unless there are horns on his head signifying some sort of devil. Any relevant facts (or opinions?)
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Re: The "Mantegna": 1450's Bologna?

#146
My understanding of it is that In the Chaldee Paraphrase on the Song of Solomon c30BC there is a paraphrase linking the 12 stones on the breast plate of the high priests with the 12 celestial signs - in the 12th century ad, Ibn Ezra wrote that the four emblems of Reuben, Judah, Ephraim and Dan were the same as the four faces of the holy animals - In the 17th century Kirchers wrote that "Creditum est Dan quod cerastem in vexillo pingere recusaret aquilam pro serpente pinxisse Ita putaverunt doctores et merito" {It is believed that Dan, rejecting the image of the horned adder, had an eagle painted in place of the snake for the merit of his officers} " - in 1811 Sir William Drummond in his book The Oedipus Judaicus put these few fragments together to suggest that in the time of Abraham the emblem for Scorpio among the Jews was the Eagle rather than the Scorpion - since then it appears to have become part of astrological and occultist tradition* - {I think, but am not sure, that most studies tracing the four holy animals back to the Babylonians is fairly modern too} - We know of course that the four holy animals were associated with the celestial signs prior to Drummond, but usually I think, the Eagle was associated with Air signs, as we find in Agrippa --

The association of the evangelists with the four holy animals goes back to the early church fathers of course, and their attributions and reasonings vary, those of Jerome becoming the 'traditional' viewpoint of the Church --

mikeh wrote:
23 Feb 2018, 12:39

One other thing: in the alchemical emblem I posted with the four ladies with jugs on their head, the eagle for air and the lion for fire are clear enough. But what are the other two. I was thinking a golem/homunculus for earth (made from clay) and a rather obese man for water, unless there are horns on his head signifying some sort of devil. Any relevant facts (or opinions?)
The man, eagle, lion seem pretty clear - the obscure emblem is that for water - a crab possibly, holding something in its claws? Or a flower of some kind (I vaguely recall someone describing it as a rose - specifically a 'white rose' in contrast the the 'black man' - the four flasks representing four colour stages, black, white, yellow and red)

SteveM

*I have it in the back of my head from somewhere that Eagle as Scorpio is to be found in Paracelsus - but probably mis-remembering something, I have searched Paracelsus sources and not been able to find such --
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: The "Mantegna": 1450's Bologna?

#147
SteveM wrote:
24 Feb 2018, 09:04
{I think, but am not sure, that most studies tracing the four holy animals back to the Babylonians is fairly modern too}
Looking for the source of Ezekiel's imagery in Babylon is natural, since it was there that he had his visions and gave his prophecy. This historical approach no doubt only began in the 19th century, as European scholars approached the Bible this way, and became acquainted with Mesopotamia at the same time. But the Kabbalistic "Merkabah" (Chariot) meditations were rooted in the Babylonian Jewish community, which remained from the time of Ezekiel, so there may be some continuity from the original sources there.
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Re: The "Mantegna": 1450's Bologna?

#148
Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:
24 Feb 2018, 11:08
SteveM wrote:
24 Feb 2018, 09:04
{I think, but am not sure, that most studies tracing the four holy animals back to the Babylonians is fairly modern too}
Looking for the source of Ezekiel's imagery in Babylon is natural, since it was there that he had his visions and gave his prophecy. This historical approach no doubt only began in the 19th century, as European scholars approached the Bible this way, and became acquainted with Mesopotamia at the same time. But the Kabbalistic "Merkabah" (Chariot) meditations were rooted in the Babylonian Jewish community, which remained from the time of Ezekiel, so there may be some continuity from the original sources there.
Not sure what sources exist for Old Testament era iconography, but the multi-volume work (I've only read an abridged version) by Erwin Ramsdell Goodenough, Jewish Symbols in the Greco-Roman Period (1953), might be worth exploring.

At all events, the the calendrical/zodiacal motif and associated four seasons in Jewish art will likely disappoint, as the allegorical four seasons are almost always depicted as human-headed (see below); the four Gospel author version looks like a distinctly Christian invention iconographically, even if derived from a Jewish text (Ezekiel), as a prophetic predecessor...but where are there Jewish iconographical precedents? A typical Roman-era Jewish zodiac mosaic, where Ezekiel's chariot has been paganized and the four angelic seasons are at the corners:
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