Re: Trionfi.com: News and Updates

#441
It seems to me that your cut-off of 1500 or so prejudges the situation. Since you include "minchiate" as one of the tarot words, it is important to know that that word has a longer known history than the "tarocchi" form. This is important because it may well be that "tarocchi" became to the 78 card deck as "minchiate" already was to a deck with more trumps than that, the names for both games playing on words for "fool" or "foolish" (minchione = fool). "Minchiate" words go back at least to 1466, the Pulci letter to il Magnifico-to-be. Although the original of the Pulci letter is lost, the plausibility of its existence is enhanced by two other occurrences of "minchiate" just slightly later in the same century. For 1477 see Pratesi in The Flaying-Card, Vol. 19, No. 1 (1990) pp. 7-17, at http://naibi.net/A/30-PRISECO-Z.pdf. For 1471 see his article in L'As de Trefle, No. 52 (1993) pp. 9-10, at http://naibi.net/A/51-JURON-Z.pdf.

I have translated Pratesi's "1499-1506: Nuove Informazione sulle carte fiorentine" at http://pratesitranslations.blogspot.com ... on-on.html. This translation supersedes the one I did originally on THF.

Re: Trionfi.com: News and Updates

#442
I've added your translation info to the list, thanks.
I had the intention to make an easy list just for the interest of the research idea of vh0610. It's better, if one has an overview of the first examples of Tarochi, Tarocchi etc., if one considers ideas, how it came to the name Tarot. It's somehow astonishing, that we have just such a few examples in the years 1500-1530.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Trionfi.com: News and Updates

#443
Books.google.com seems to think, that it has improved something, but somehow I see only a catastrophe. Bullshit, google.

I don't get the title of the book ... Finally (one has to leave the page to get the old edition, unbelievable) ...
Die Wissenschaften im neunzehnten Jahrhundert ... Johannes Andreas Romberg 1856
Dr. Gräße, königlich sächsischer Hofrath, Zur Geschichte der Spielkarten, s. 542-564
www.google.de/books/edition/Die_Wissens ... frontcover

There is a note to Reginald Scot: Discovery of Witchcraft.
Gräße thinks, that it includes material to divination with cards in 16th century.
Other names:
Boguet (died 1619) (Disc. de sorciers ch. 53)
[I've found https://www.google.de/books/edition/Dis ... =de&gbpv=0 } ... but couldn't find something with cards in ch. 53]
This should be about sorcery tricks with cards
Francesco di Milano, nominato in tutto il mondo il Bagatello / Horatio Galasso / Alberto Francese called Pimperlimping or Perlimpimpim

English wiki
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Disco ... Witchcraft
Version of the Witchcraft text from 1886
https://archive.org/details/discoverieofwitc00scot
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Trionfi.com etc. Nördlingen

#445
Nebenstunden, geschichtlichen und literarischen Inhalts. Nähmlich kleine historische Memoiren (etc.)
Franz Gräffer
Sollinger, 1828 - 264 Seiten
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1416 ... "gekart" should mean "played with cards" and "mit Hölzlin gespielt" is the probably the same which appeared in Nördlingen 1426 as Hölzlein ...

Johann Müller's Merkwürdigkeiten der Stadt Nördlingen, 1824. Referenz to Nördlingen 1419 and 1426.
https://books.google.fr/books?id=1UBEAA ... 22&f=false
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Daniel Eberhardt Beyschlag, Versuch einer Schulgeschichte der Reichsstadt Nördlingen, 1795 - Nördlingen 1502
"Karnüflen" bottom line of page 14 -
https://books.google.de/books?id=KX9PAA ... &q&f=false

Compare discussion at ...

viewtopic.php?f=12&p=23545#p23550
viewtopic.php?f=12&p=23545#p23553
viewtopic.php?f=12&p=23545#p23555

"Hölzlin", Grimm Wörterbuch
spielt, spielten, altes prät. zu spalten, s. das., sp. 1852. so auch: das ist ein grosze thorheit, das du sein (l. dein) seel verderbest umb deiner kind willen, die umb deiner seelen willen nit ein hölzlin spielten. Keisersberg brösaml. 2, 58ᵃ. s. noch I, 10, d.
Fundstelle
It seems, that the Grimm doesn't know the word as a game.

"Hölzlin" in German translation of Francesco Petrarca text to Fortuna
Trostspiegel in Glück vnd Vnglück/ Francisci Petrarchæ Deß Weitberhümmten Hochgelehrten fürtrefflichen Poeten vnnd Oratorn Trostbücher/ Von Rath/ That/ vnd Artzney in Glück vnd Vnglück/ Nemblich/ wie sich ein jeder verständiger Mensch halten soll/ In seiner Wolfahrt nicht vberheben/ Deßgleichen in Vnglück/ Widerwertigkeit/ Angst vnd Noth zu trösten wissen. Allen ehrliebenden Regiments Personen/ Haußvättern/ vnnd jedermenniglichen/ weß Standts sie seyn mögen/ zu Nutz vnd Trost auß dem Lateinischen mit fleiß verteutscht/ vnd mit vielen schönen künstlichen Figuren gezieret/ vnd in Truck von newem verfertiget ...
Francesco Petrarca
Steinmayer, 1620
https://books.google.de/books?id=A0xDAA ... il&f=false

I interpret, that Hölzlin might here be a sort of Backgammon variant, which is called also Räuberholz or Räuberspiel (so it is called in the text)
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Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Trionfi.com ... Nördlingen 2

#446
Von der Formschneiderey: 1
Daniel Eberhard Beyschlag
Beck, 1798
https://books.google.de/books?id=7GFYAA ... l"&f=false
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In this text of Beyschlag, 3 years later (1798) than the other (1795) , Beyschlag improves his position (Karnöffel 1502).

Card playing in Nördlingen is according Beyschlag not existent before 1426. Then it is acording the note, which I found in another text connected to the year 1416 (which is apparently a typo, 1426 is correct at least according Beyschlag in 1798).

1416 is WRONG, 1426 is CORRECT
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3 prisoners, one for card playing, another for Hölzlin (which should be a sort of table game) in 1426

Karnöffel in 1426 should be WRONG
Correct (according Beyschlag 1798) is, that there were punishment cases cause of card playing in 1436, 1439 and 1440. In 1440 something shall have happened, which looked like an allowance). Card playing for the city rulers happened for the first time in 1456 (possibly that, what was given to 1426 in the earlier version, possibly with Karnöffel; Beyschlag doesn't give details). He thinks, that he has a price for cards in 1461: "umb drü Cartenspiel zum Gensmal XII "bot""

Von der Formschneiderey und Buchdruckerkunst: 2
Daniel Eberhard Beyschlag
Beck, 1799
https://books.google.de/books?id=9GFYAA ... navlinks_s

**********

Then comes the improvement of Johann Müller. 1824.
Daniel Eberhard Beyschlag was then still living. He died in 1835. He had 3 sons: "Christian Friedrich, der älteste Sohn, wurde Regierungs- und Kreisbaurat in Augsburg, sein jüngerer Bruder Christian Leopold übernahm eine Apotheke in Herzogenaurach. Der jüngste Sohn Ferdinand Ludwig wurde Bezirksbauinspektor in Kaiserslautern."
Here the critical page is 48.
Merkwürdigkeiten der Stadt Nördlingen: nebst einer Chronik mit lythographischen Zeichnungen
Johann Müller
Beck, 1824
https://books.google.de/books?id=1UBEAA ... n"&f=false

Then comes another Müller text. 1851 ... in this text a Müller cooperates with a C. Beyschlag, who is not identical to the teacher Daniel Eberhard Beyschlag.
Here the critical page is 69.
Geschichte der Stadt Nördlingen bis auf die neueste Zeit
C. Beyschlag
Selbstverl., 1851 - 212 Seiten
https://books.google.de/books?id=kLpAAA ... el&f=false
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Trionfi.com etc ... Nördlingen 3

#447
Daniel Eberhard Beyschlag 1795 (page 14)
https://books.google.de/books?id=KX9PAA ... en&f=false
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Daniel Eberhard Beyschlag 1798 (1)
https://books.google.de/books?id=7GFYAA ... l"&f=false
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Daniel Eberhard Beyschlag 1798 (2)
https://books.google.de/books?id=NH9PAA ... en&f=false
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M----r 1817 (possibly Johannes Müller 1817) (page 131)
https://books.google.de/books?id=HTVTAA ... en&f=false
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Johannes Müller 1824
https://reader.digitale-sammlungen.de/d ... 00008.html
Page IV.
Johannes Müller, 72 years old, tells in 1824 his life. He worked in an archive and cooperated with various persons who used the archive, between them also the teacher Beyschlag. When Beyschlag went from Nördlingen to Augsburg, Müller got the papers of Beyschlag, which were related to Nördlingen. Likely also the papers about playing cards in Nördlingen. Müller describes the relationship to Beyschlag as very friendly. Beyschlag was still alive, when the book was printed. If Müller would have added nonsense to the text, he would have had a critical response.
So one should assume, that Müller didn't add nonsense.

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C. Beyschlag 1851
https://books.google.de/books?newbks=1& ... rt&f=false
In the opening the author C.Beyschlag explains his interest to make the text more attractive, avoiding the style of a chronist. He notes his relations to a grandson of Johannes Müller, who gave him access to some material of his grandfather. It stays an open question, which relation C. Beyschlag has to the earlier teacher Beyschlag, possibly he is a son (?).

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Nördlinger Stadtrechte des Mittelalters. Bearb. v. Karl Otto Müller. München 1933. (Bayerische Rechtsquellen 2)
https://drw-www.adw.uni-heidelberg.de/d ... blaettere=>
"Karneffeln" is mentioned at page 86
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Huck
http://trionfi.com

Trionfi.com ... Karl IV pictures

#449
From an exhibition 2016/2017 in Nuremberg
http://www.hdbg.de/karl/karl_information.php

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Die um 1370 entstandene Votivtafel zeigt oben links Kaiser Karl IV., mit prächtigem Ornat und Krone, vor Maria und dem Christuskind. Rechts kniet sein Sohn, der junge König Wenzel; hinter dem Kaiser der hl. Sigismund, hinter Wenzel dessen Schutzpatron, der hl. Wenzel. In der unteren Bildhälfte ist der Stifter der Tafel, Erzbischof Johann Očko von Vlašim, zu sehen mit den böhmischen Landespatronen, den Heiligen Prokop, Albert, Veit und Ludmilla (von links). (Foto: Nationalgalerie Prag)
Top: At the left side is Karl IV with Saint Sigismondo, at the right side the young Wenzel with the Saint Wenzel. At the lower half is the sponsor and 4 patrons of Bohemia, the Saints Prokop, Albert, Veit and Ludmilla. The text gives 1370 as the date, but the size of the young Wenzel gives the suspicion of a 15-years-old boy (Wenzel was born 1361).

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In der Anbetung der Heiligen Drei König auf dem so genantnen Morgan-Diptychon ist als mittlerer König Kaiser Karl IV. dargestellt. Möglicherweise waren die Tafeln ein Geschenk Karls IV. anlässlich seines Romzugs bzw. der Kaiserkrönung 1355. (Foto: New York, The Morgan Library & Museum)
Karl IV shall be the middle king of the 3 holy kings. Possibly the Diptychon was made for the journey to Rome in 1355.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Trionfi.com etc ... Geiler von Kaysersberg: Keyserspil and Karnöeffel are the same game

#450
http://digital.onb.ac.at/OnbViewer/view ... Z197004707

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Johann Geiler von Kayserberg
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Ge ... aysersberg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Ge ... aysersberg

Keyserspiel (Ludo Cesaris)
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaisern_(Kartenspiel)
"Eine Aussage von Johann Geiler von Kaysersberg (1496) soll belegen, dass das Kaiserspiel identisch mit dem Karnöffelspiel ist."
Huck
http://trionfi.com

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