The Good Tidings

#1
A prosperous new year 2020 to you dear TH friends - even when this seems already a little late - please bear with me!

I know from my past OPs + comments that you do not condone my opinions - but: whatever?

Here I present to your well-studied eyes a new glimpse of/on a gilded rectangle from the "well-known" Pierpont Morgan-Bergamo Visconti-Sforza Tarot.
I know by now that you are not so keen on discussing your well earned opinions - so I will not make a fuss with many words - mostly just pictures to look at in awe ...
Like in the old days ... remember :ymsmug:

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As ever I recommend that you download the JPG + zoom in to your heart's content to see more clearly - but that of course is up to you + after all why would you?

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Now you should have recognized by now that this post refers to the aforementioned pairing of the rectangles of the PMB-VS-Tarot - but until now I did only mention that there will be 18 paired in 9 + we had just spoken (OK - only I did ... ) about 8 pairs so far - made from 16.
This post is about the direct pictorial evidence - that you all - I believe this sincerely - must have pondered about a lot while you were studying these treasures to the max ... in the past :D

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If I remember correctly I mentioned also on some occasions that the number of the stars on the "Sola Busca - Nabuchodenasor - Trump XXI" are exactly the same - but who cares - right? Now - to confirm that - you would have to put your back into it - but why would you ~o) ?

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But - of course ( :ymparty: ) this is not all ...
The IIII are also mentioned - just like in the much later Tarot de Marseille Tarots - albeit with OTHER means + totally "flying" under the radar ...

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Now we have 18 + 4 = 22.
But most probably you knew that already - so nothing new here.

(For these new readers that come along once in a while I would recommend to read my other posts + comments in other threads IF you are interested in some context + naturally you can ask away with any meaningful questions ... )

Adrian

Re: The Good Tidings

#2
Hello, and a prosperous new year 2020 to you too.
I dont understand how you connect the 4 crosses with the 4 non-geomantic cards. The Visconti cards dont show a cross on those cards.
On the Grimaud tarot, the empress and emperor do have a cross on their sceptre, the Pope has a triple cross on his sceptre and in his crown. The chariot doesnt have a cross in his sceptre but seems to have a small cross in his crown too. Is that significant?
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If I remember correctly I mentioned also on some occasions that the number of the stars on the "Sola Busca - Nabuchodenasor - Trump XXI" are exactly the same - but who cares - right? Now - to confirm that - you would have to put your back into it - but why would you ~o) ?
I see 15 stars in this card, is it the right one?

Edit: Its really hard to see the details on the visconti tarot card pictures. I found some pictures that do show crosses. Havent found the empress though. But the popess holds a sceptre with a cross too.
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Re: The Good Tidings

#3
I did not manage to find pictures of the original Sola busca deck card XXI from the Brera museum in Milan nor it's photograph in the British museum but I found a picture from the only exact reproduction deck ever made
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It clearly shows more than 15 stars but the colors are somewhat faded and washed out so I'm not really sure if I see 18 stars or my imagination is playing tricks on me.
I find it annoying that many reproductions manipulate details.

-2 fingers on the 9th square: I would not have noticed and interpreted such details in a million years, I have to be more careful and observant. Seemingly random details need more attention.

-We have a floating island in the middle of nowhere. To arrive in this uncharted territory one has to cross perilous waters and even then it is protected by walls, also guarded by 8 outer towers, one extra tower next to the inner sanctum and a custodian gate. What's inside the inner sanctum must be really important/valuable.

If I'm not mistaken, you mentioned before somewhere that this (island of bliss, vision of the future) is new Jerusalem.

-The shape of the walls is a bit confusing. At first I thought it was a hexagon. The side with the door and the ones just left and right would form half the hexagon, so behind the inner sanctum would be another side and two more on it's sides. But that makes the front half too narrow and the rear part too wide. An octagon would better explain the size maybe, but the tower positions are not symmetrical. I don't know if that's explained due to perspective.

Edit: I found a clearer picture in an old topic here
viewtopic.php?p=15688#p15688
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More info here
viewtopic.php?p=16177#p16177
And here
viewtopic.php?p=16906#p16906

Re: The Good Tidings

#4
Well BRAVO!
Was the star count successful?
Like Huck mentions in your quoted post > the 2 groups < are also interesting - no?
They also mention the kind of division they make for classification of the group-members so that hints there (in the SB Tarot) is a similar structure used as the one I try to explain here with so many pictures and words for the PMB VS Tarot.

But the SB Tarot is not the subject here + I suppose we can lay this to rest for now?

Re: The Good Tidings

#5
Hi georgetrismegistos.

When you go to the 1st Thread I posted here on TH you will find links to all Visconti Tarots I talk about.
It is to Huck's Trionfi site in this case > http://a.trionfi.eu/WWPCM/decks05/d02046/d02046.htm
Here is the [III] or [Empress] that you couldn't find > http://a.trionfi.eu/WWPCM/decks05/d02046/d0204603.jpg

BUT: the crosses here on the rectangle with the 2 messengers bear only meaning when a "reader" of this depiction has come to the conclusion himself - going all the way + has made it here ... gazing at the island in the dangerous distance + longing to get there - to the island of bliss ...

This island is mentioned in various cultures + in Christianity "The New Jerusalem" (that is not a part of THIS world - but it is foretold) became a Christian shell for this ancient belief. The PMB Visconti-SforzaTarot uses always motifs that Christians could look at without blushing.

On a deeper level these motifs are very flexibel - these 2 messengers point not really to Christian territory.
They are in no way stylized like putti (the regular fat baby angels). They are more like fully developed young men with really good abs!

This is the only Trump (what an interesting word :) ) with such a squared background pattern + the whole composition of this rug - in stark contrast to the kilim on the other Trumps which was made to WALK on in reality - this alludes much more to the prayer rug design with it's sanctum.
Here is the PMB-VS Tarot rectangle in comparison to a modern composition (it is not about fancy style - but about ancient symbolism that is in this modern design translated for Muslims who are not very well versed in the traditional reading of prayer rug symbolism.
We see a stylized rendering of The Dome Of The Rock + even with modern tech it is visible that the octagonal shape of the building is not easily portrayed - so please cut the artist who did this exquisite miniature marvel some slack here.

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I have been over the kilim-symbolism and therefore the walking of the (Tarot) subjects as a visual hint for the spectator here on TH quite often - so just read up ...
Here it is about "adoration" + "receiving a message from high" + proving through commitment worthiness + FINDING a way to get THERE ...

Maybe I come back later

Adrian

Re: The Good Tidings

#6
For those readers who are new to this (my) subject I should probably give some more precise context information.

Not so long ago I made a comment in a topic variantventures brought up - just to make the Muslim connection more clear.

viewtopic.php?p=21328#p21328

Please consider that I do NOT say here that Filippo Maria Visconti converted to Islam - what would be obviously ridiculous.
I say that he tried for a long time to figure out on his own what the secret was about that became the heirloom of his family - the 2 other gilded Tarots were the results of this endeavor but they did not work like the spiritual machine he imagined ... (you could call this speculation :) naturally)

Through his alchemical interests + by his financial + political means he garnered the attention of someone "in the know" of Saracen descent + knowledge who guided his own Tarot project. The 16 Geomantic signs are at a center of interest in alchemy + the Saracens were the revered masters of that art in Filippo's time.
More should have been on the plate that Filippo did not know about when they met + we are here to watch ...

That rug with the round hole that opens the view on the island with the city in the dangerous distance is the centerpiece of the picture.

The whole scene is shown in a „surreal-art-fashion“ (which became all the rage in the 1960s with René Magritte + his depiction of ordinary objects in an unusual context, his work is known for challenging observers' preconditioned perceptions of reality. > From Wikipedia)

More so the “prayer rug” is NOT hanging on a wall – it just happens to BE there – in front of a landscape with hills ... but wait – not really – bc the hills are in front of the rug ... so many visual impossibilities ... + the 2 “angels” just add a layer to this new “normal” the spectator gets introduced to here on the edge of reallity ...

From a pictorial perspective it does not add anything that the pattern on the background kilim with it's diamonds (like on ALL other Trumps in this Tarot set) is HERE changed to squares (which still hold a rotating 8 spiked star each).

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So: what could have driven this change?

Here – for the 1st + only time between all these Tarot trumps – the NUMBER can be counted precisely + when the spectator engages his own whit he will count 16 squares.

These 16 squares now are only important IF the spectator is familiar (like Filippo was!) with the Geomantic Oracle and it's connotations in alchemy.
We already discussed ( :) ) that + I made the JPGs depicting + summarizing these themes available at the beginning of my 1st OP here on TH:

Tarotée - The Back-Door To The Secret

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1044&sid=ecb4238a3 ... def#p15667
I created 6 folders with 37 (from more than 500 of the same format) files on Dropbox. Just read them according to the file names for better orientation and a little background knowledge in the LiBER MUNDi thread on Aeclectic. The text files were made available by Ross Caldwell once for the LiBER MUNDi thread that is already filed here below as the link on the 25th page of the PDF I made for this topic:

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=128423

1-16 GODs:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/706svldbo6op ... Gy1Sa?dl=0

[ ... ]

The GEOMANTIC system with it's 16 distinct and ancient "characters" ( > 16 GODs) was very popular in the Renaissance throughout Europe and Filippo Maria Visconti (like many aristocrats) had books in his libraries about the concerned themes - especially Geomantics.
Here I will tap into that to keep you in the (very much shortened) loop.

The 16 PMB V-S Tarot subjects were identified in the LiBER MUNDi thread on Aeclectic (link above) but I must add for better understanding that in the files that Ross Caldwell brought - the 3rd + 4th names from above on page 29 for the respective signs must be swapped so that in reality the 3rd sign's name is PUELLA + the 4th sign's name is PUER. This is obviously important to know.

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That is what should be happening in the head of the spectator :)

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He has to figure out WHO will be the runner(s) up to make 18 in 9 pairs happen + HOW + what system with 18 in 9 pairs would be based on the Geomantic system with 16 distinct PERSONALITIES ...

Adrian

Re: The Good Tidings

#7
Dear readers

- I had to change the subtitle of "The 22 Secrets/Visconti-Sforza Tarot/Dal Negro Edition"

from "Succession As Given & Used By ... "
to "LEFOV In This Succession As Given & Used By ... "

obviously bc AEW also swapped VIII & XI without any real reason other than his own personal ones which he kept a secret.
The traditional use in occult (foremost) french circles of LEFOV between XX & XXI is fortunately transmitted by him + it is the only place that is justified + working :)

AC instead made a HUGE error - based on simple mathematical assumptions - when he equated LEFOV with "0" + placed him therefore right at the head of the succession of trumps - before "I".
This alone - apart from the other changes he made - disrupted the whole system + shows his complete "innocence" :D

I made the addressed file here a little bit bigger so that you can easily identify it + will probable resize it later for your convenience.

Adrian

Re: The Good Tidings

#8
Here is the [III] or [Empress] that you couldn't find >
1. Sorry it seems I didn't make it clear, I found the empress image she just doesn't have a cross. That was assuming it was important that these 4 cards are connected to the world/island 4 crosses by depicting a cross in them.
BUT: the crosses here on the rectangle with the 2 messengers bear only meaning when a "reader" of this depiction has come to the conclusion himself - going all the way + has made it here ... gazing at the island in the dangerous distance + longing to get there - to the island of bliss ...
I guess that means i was wrong to look for crosses on the images and make a connection.


2. The rug is fascinating, shows the temple of Solomon and the two lines equivalent to the angels >via.
Its also interesting how the raised arms of the angels create a similar shape like in the rug, something like Laetitia.


3. The double square that forms an 8-pointed star on the geomantic pictures, forms an octagon inside. If we would fold the triangles inside 90 degrees we would also have 8 outer towers, just like in the floating island.
Im also curious if it would still be possible to make the geomantic connections if one only had access to Tarot de Marseille. Its hard for example to find puer in its version of strength since there is no man but a woman. The Cary Yale also shows a woman in the strength card but i still dont get it.


4. Ive been thinking about possibilities for the 9 pairs-18 cards.
-The new pair could be emperor-empress.
I was thinking that the extra pair cant be new personalities, the geomantic theory should have covered all of them. What if the new pair is a perfected one?
Rebis is such a pair https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebis
Maybe Hieros gamos is an equivalent of that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hieros_gamos
The link shows a picture of the sacred marriage of Hera/Juno and Zeus/Jupiter. We have decks using them as replacements for the Emperor but not the Empress, its the Popess instead, and she is already used in geomancy as Albus.

-Star and moon. Very similar, a girl holding a stellar object. The chariot (of the sun, a well known story from Greek Mythology) could also be a stellar object though making them three. The chariot(Sun) and moon could also be a pair based on Rebis.
-Another possibility i thought, could be the 4 cards in the corners in ouroboros, but again, the Popess is used already in Geomancy.
-Another idea is the enneagram, a sufi symbol. Not sure what to make of it yet.


5. In the link about Rubaiyat-e-Ganjifa viewtopic.php?p=21328#p21328
that you gave earlier, you also link to a pdf with irreligious verses in the masnavi https://aalequtub.files.wordpress.com/2 ... verses.pdf
My first thought was, these people (who wrote the pdf) only think their religion is worthwhile, and they reject anything that gives any value to anything else.
As i continued reading, my thoughts changed to, these westerners shamelessly modify ancient texts for their own agenda. Later you say
Remember the supposedly wrong Rumi quote ...
"We have picked the essence of the Koran, throwing away the skin to the dogs."
Take it now as a “working hypothesis” that only the first 78 surahs are of importance for the much later conception of the Tarot.
I think you mean that the first 78 surahs are the essense of the Koran, and the rest is the skin to throw to the dogs, and that these fake verses in Masnavi are not (all?) fake. Curiously the verses after 78 are really short, so by removing them you dont miss much of the books volume. Just like throwing away the skin to the dogs, and keeping the bones and marrow.
23 Al-Mu’minoun (the Believers) should be the Ace of Cups ...
37 As-saffat should be Ace of Swords right? And 51 Adh-Dhariyat should be Ace of Wands.
30 Ar-Rum (the Romans) is about the importance of remembering - so that the future may be revealed - similar to the assumption that the 6 of Cups refers to the past and the consequences in the present ...
And shouldnt 30 be Eight of Cups? Or are they not in perfect order?
The pips are not easy to connect to some meaning since they just show shapes, how would one approach this problem?

6.
obviously bc AEW also swapped VIII & XI without any real reason other than his own personal ones which he kept a secret.
According to Paul Foster Case, his (Waite's) reason was astrological. By putting Strength on 8 you have Leo, followed by Virgo/Hermit as 9. 10 would be connected with planet Jupiter and a double hebrew letter, then 11 Justice/Libra so you create a chain of successive Zodiac signs. This system of connection (with hebrew letters, zodiacs, planets and letter words) does not seem coherent overall to my eyes, some connections-explanations seem very weak or non existent.
You may be implying that AEW swapped the cards for another reason altogether.

Re: The Good Tidings

#9
Hi georgetrismegistos.

I'm sorry for being late with this reply but I do not have as much time for these matters as I would wish right now :(
You brought a lot to the table here + will go through your points 1 by 1 - but not all of them today.

1. [...] I guess that means i was wrong to look for crosses on the images and make a connection.
Of course. Why would you even think that?
All the other "role ascriptions" that occurred didn't come with a label that was painted on the PMB V-S Tarot rectangle par for par.
Meaning: no names - no numbers - all "definitions" of the depicted scenes rely on interpretation + context that occurs in the mind of the spectator + forms from his education + knowledge to pur into the mold he constructs from the scene he observes with his eyes.

These IIII subjects are the "leftovers" when the other 18 will have obtained their "role ascriptions" according to the new system of 18 in 9 pairs.
Since I mentioned the "misspelled" IIII on the 4 Tarot de Marseille Tarot cards > IIII - VIIII - XIIII - XVIIII < quite often in other topics + comments around here I thought that this was easy to grasp. My apologies for that.
At that moment - when the spectator observes the island with it's city - the IIII crosses bear no meaning for him - other than that there are 4 of them.
The spectator is just looking at the 16 that he identified so far with this 1 exceptional rectangle with a definite message that he tries to decode between them + the 6 unclaimed secrets as an additional source for trying to ARRIVE at the island.

At this moment everyone of the 22 secrets could hold a solution to his problem.
When the spectator does not succeed in finding help he will not be able to make it ... there ...

2. The rug is fascinating, shows the temple of Solomon and the two lines equivalent to the angels >via.
Its also interesting how the raised arms of the angels create a similar shape like in the rug, something like Laetitia.
The rug is a very cheap modern product that comes in numerous color variations + as I said it depicts The Dome Of The Rock + not a miraculous temple.
The 2 angels are identified as POPULUS ( = people bc they are 2)
The 1 OTHER angel (as in ALONE + on his WAY) is identified as VIA - have a look please.
LAETITIA has no business here bc it already identified elsewhere - have a look please.
With LAETITIA here you make a similar assumption as you did with the 4 crosses.
Only that something has a slightly similar shape - this does not make it equal in meaning - at least not here :)
- somewhere else you can use this kind of observation - maybe even on this journey - so keep looking ...

3. The double square that forms an 8-pointed star on the geomantic pictures, forms an octagon inside. If we would fold the triangles inside 90 degrees we would also have 8 outer towers, just like in the floating island.
The 8 pointed star in this appearance is not MY invention.
This star is closely connected to Islam and known as "Rub el Hisb" - normally with a circle in middle + it can play a role in memorizing the Qur'an.
Geometry is key for Arabic architecture + design.

I must go for now.

Adrian

Re: The Good Tidings

#10
Continuing ...
3. [ ... ] Im also curious if it would still be possible to make the geomantic connections if one only had access to Tarot de Marseille. Its hard for example to find puer in its version of strength since there is no man but a woman. The Cary Yale also shows a woman in the strength card but i still dont get it.
I'did not find evidence for a structure or system based on the 16 geomantic characters in the historic Tarot de Marseille Type II decks I studied - instead the best ones + here especially the "said « ARNOULT 1748 »" that you can find here ...

http://tarot-de-marseille-millennium.co ... llery.html
(At the bottom of the page.)

... hold hints to the system of 18 in 9 pairs that we are in the process of establishing now.
Unlike the PMB V-S Tarot the "said « ARNOULT 1748 »" comes with visual signs for a structure that enables the player to play the game.
The Ouroboros layout is the 1st step for that structure.

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1119

I must encourage you though to take into consideration that not all readers of this thread are familiar with the Latin names for the geomantic signs.
To make this unfamiliar theme of Geomancy more accessible for new readers - here is some visual help ...

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Later more.

Adrian

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