Re: Mellet: Research on the Tarot

#21
Some suggestions:

conceived the characters - contrived the characters

in scripture & in hieroglyphic expression - in the scripture & in the hieroglyphic expression

that is, acts of omnipotence, or Creation, to which he joined moral precepts. -, that is, acts of the Omnipotence, or Creation, to which he joined the Precepts of Morality.

the Ethotia - Ethotia

of its astronomy; - of his astronomy;

this name [3], either - this name [3]; either

twenty-first, which - twenty-first card, which

modern figures - modern numerals

intelligence of History - understanding of the History

that one operates - that one carries out

madness - Madness

& Virtues - & the Virtues

4. Livret au Lansquenet, - 4. Livret [Booklet] aus Lansquenet,

omnipotence - the Omnipotence

announce guilty men - announce the guilty

of Gemini, of the Androgynous: Duo in carne una. - of the Twins, of the Androgyne: Duo in carne una [Two in one body].

star - celestial body

character - characteristic

However, two - However, the two

earthly paradise - terrestrial paradise [my explanation: this is a stock phrase in English]

know it as - know him as

with its claw - with his claw

mythological scripture - mythological writing

same as our sacred historians - same in our sacred histories

are the mythological pictures of the two - are mythological pictures of two

1. Perhaps its attitude relates to the culture of the Vine. - 1. Perhaps its pose relates to viticulture.

depending on whether he will be guided - depending on how it is guided

credulity of people - credulity of the Peoples

It is followed by a unique card representing Madness which carries its bag or its faults from behind, while a tiger or remorse, devouring its hocks, delays its march towards crime - He is followed by a unique card representing Madness who carries his bag or his faults behind, while a tiger or his remorse, devouring his hocks, delays his march towards crime.

occult virtue - hidden power

the intelligence - the understanding of them

Powers - the Powerful

Pivot - Goad

consecrated to - consecrated by

happy & unhappy ones, - happy & some unhappy,

the Pharaoh - Pharaoh

Re: Mellet: Research on the Tarot

#22
suggestions for p. 2 of your translation (I am using the French text at http://www.letarot.com/pages-vrac/pages ... iecle.html):

Iou - Iou [Jove?]

Queen of Heaven - Queen of the Heavens

several other cards - several other pictures [or Tableaus, a perfectly good English word]

middle of the card, his foot on his ball - middle of the picture [or Tableau], his foot on his sphere

the farmer - the cultivator

seek to discover things which are hidden with discretion - seek to discover hidden things only with discretion.

to win - to vanquish

as well as - the same as [or, in the same manner as]

characters - signs

devoured or guarded the countryside - had to happen in the countryside or that concerned it.

compensate for - offset

read hieroglyphs - read the hieroglyphs ("hieroglyphs" has the sense of pictures with hidden meanings, not necessarily Egyptian ones)

stick, denier - baton, coin

certain turns - certain turns of phrase

doomsday - dire [or simply "unpropitious"]

easy to recognize the big - easy to recognize there the big

Nine, that of the cups - Nine, that of cups

travels - goes all over

sojourn - residence

expresses unique - expresses a unique

signifies - signify

look for - search

each others - each other's

make their presumed - make them presume ("leur" is indirect object)

recherches - investigations

early - early on

drew - collected

explain - explicate

manifested - manifesting

had anyone been able to regard it as bold -if anyone could [would?] have considered it rash

having the understanding - having the understanding of them.

Tell me what you saw. - Relate to me what you have seen.

dream in which they were concerned, as in the course of divination there was a positive question, the answer of which had to be sought in the Book of Fate - dream with which they were concerned, as in all divination where there was a positive question, the answer to which had to be sought in the Book of Fates

drawn - drawing

paying attention to place them scrupulously under the words of whose explanation was sought; the phrase -
paying scrupulous attention to placing them under the words whose explanation was sought, the sentence

Mage - Magus

phrase we seek - sentence we seek

retribution - renumeration

which must pull away - which must separate

counter-poison - antidote

to draw the - drawn to

is shuffled and then cut by the interested person - one shuffles and then has the interested person cut.

complacent - accepting

Little Masters - Dandies

sun card - card of the sun

reunited - joined

principle - principal

likewise the clubs between two spades or next to a spade, are less fortunate. - likewise the club between two spades, or next to a spade, is less fortunate.

fatal accidents - dire mishaps

they have - one has

A Lover. - a Lover (male).


Nice job, Steve. You saw your way through some tricky passages. I still have no idea how the cards to be interpreted are selected from the deck, so I am unable to offer much in the way of correction to that part.

Re: Mellet: Research on the Tarot

#23
Thanks Mike - re IOU -yes, it is the Etruscan form of Jove, I have added a note.
mikeh wrote:
22 Aug 2019, 11:17
I still have no idea how the cards to be interpreted are selected from the deck, so I am unable to offer much in the way of correction to that part.
Do you mean when using the tarot pack or the piquet? The piquet method is the same as with the minor arcana of the tarot, taking into account that the 2-6 of each suit has been removed and there is no knight, so as you turn the cards you say Ace, 7, 8, 9, 10, Jack, Queen, King. If a card turned is the same as one called, then you lay it aside to form the sentence.
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Mellet: Research on the Tarot

#25
The deck is divided between the trumps and the rest, after shufflling, etc each pile, then cards from each pile are turned up together. As the cards are turned you count from 1 - 14 (or, ace to ten, page, knight, queen, king). If the card turned from the four suits pack matches, then it and the trump card that was turned with it are selected to form the 'sentence'.
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Mellet: Research on the Tarot

#26
Let me rephrase to see if I understand. First you divide the cards into trumps and suit cards. Then you shuffle each pile. Then you turn over the top trump card, exposing it to view and for possible inclusion in the reading. Then you turn over the top card in the suits pile, saying "one" as you do so. If the card is an ace, then it and the trump card are part of the "sentence" being read. If not, you just leave both alone. Then you go to the next trump card and turn it over. You do the same with the suits pile, saying "two". If the card is a deuce, you take it and the trump card just turned over and make them the next part of the "sentence". And so on up to 14. Is that right?

It seems to me that by this method you will very likely end up with very few cards for your sentence. Also, the "sentence" will invariably go from low to high as far as the suit cards are concerned. So I must not be getting it.

Re: Mellet: Research on the Tarot

#27
mikeh wrote:
09 Oct 2019, 20:49
Let me rephrase to see if I understand. First you divide the cards into trumps and suit cards. Then you shuffle each pile. Then you turn over the top trump card, exposing it to view and for possible inclusion in the reading. Then you turn over the top card in the suits pile, saying "one" as you do so. If the card is an ace, then it and the trump card are part of the "sentence" being read. If not, you just leave both alone. Then you go to the next trump card and turn it over. You do the same with the suits pile, saying "two". If the card is a deuce, you take it and the trump card just turned over and make them the next part of the "sentence". And so on up to 14. Is that right?

It seems to me that by this method you will very likely end up with very few cards for your sentence. Also, the "sentence" will invariably go from low to high as far as the suit cards are concerned. So I must not be getting it.
Here is Mary Greer on the spread:
https://marykgreer.com/2008/04/03/the-o ... omte-de-m/

And how some on ATF attempted it:
https://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=168695

Mellet says do it [go through the whole deck?] three times - but those who experimented with it seemed to find one run through sufficient.
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Mellet: Research on the Tarot

#28
I think I understand now. The process is repeated after the first counting to 14, and when the pile of trumps has been gone through completely (there are only 22 of them, after all), the trumps are reshuffled and cut and then the counting resumes where it left off, i.e. at Nine (22-14=8). Then when the pile of 56 is exhausted, it is turned over and begun again, through two more times. I think Mary is wrong that the pile is now in reverse order compared to what it was initially, because the card is turned over in the process of counting, so that turning over the pile puts the suit cards back the way they were.

I would suggest the following changes, which I have put in bold. He uses the word "card" to mean "suit card", not "card" in general, as understood in English: for that he has "caractere". Also, neither "carte" nor "lettre" nor "caractere" appears in the French for what is shuffled next; but it is clear that it is the "letters" that are shuffled, not the suit cards or both piles (as your term "cards" would suggest). So:

Let us suppose at the present that two men who want to consult the fates have, one the twenty-two letters [trumps + fool], the other the four suits, & that after having each shuffled the cards, & having cut each other's, they begin counting together up to the number fourteen, holding the letters & suit cards upside down to show only the back; then if a suit card arrives at its natural rank, that is, which bears the number called, it must be set apart with the number of the letter issued at the same time, which will be placed above [it]: the one who holds the letter will hand over the same so that the Book of Destiny will always be in its entirety, & that there can be, in no case, incomplete sentences; then they will shuffle and cut [the 22 "letters"] again. Finally, the suit cards will be run through three times thoroughly with the same attention [apparently without shuffling]. When this operation is completed, it will be only a matter of reading the numbers that express the letters turned up with them. The happiness or misfortune that each of them presages must be combined with that announced by the suit card that corresponds to them, in the same way, their power, more or less, is determined by the number of this same card, multiplied by the one that characterizes the letter. And this is why Madness [or Folly] which produces nothing, is without number; it is, as we have said, the zero of this calculation.

Added next day: see my next post for some second thoughts, canceling one of my suggestions above.

Re: Mellet: Research on the Tarot

#29
I have thought some more about the procedure. When de Mellet says "Finally, the suit cards will be run through three times thoroughly with the same attention" I think he means the same as in the case of the Piquet deck, i.e. that the whole operation he has just described will be run through three times. (http://www.forum.tarothistory.com/viewt ... 066#p21066). In other words, there will be three separate readings in the same session, with the same querent and query, which the reader will compare. So I think I was wrong when I said in my last post, "apparently without shuffling". Both piles are shuffled and cut for each of the three results.

That there are three separate readings is consistent with other reports. Papus quotes Etteilla (correctly, as the passage is in the 3rd Cahier) in Tarot Divinatoire, for the "ancient Egyptian" methods (Stockman translation, p. 245). The first involved dividing the deck into four piles, by a complicated procedure, setting the fourth aside and reading the first three. In another method, only one reading, of five cards, is necessary; but in case the question is not answered, there is a second row, and if "they had still not found a solution or a positive prognosis", there was a third row already prepared. If on the third try nothing helpful resulted, the querent was advised to come back another day.

In one respect the "modern" and "ancient" methods are different, besides of course the difference in decks, the "modern" one lacking not only 5 cards per suit but also the trumps. However I am not sure what the difference amounts to. He says, "We always start again until we have exhausted the deck. " I assume that means starting over at one. and then if one has not reached the King by the time one is through the 32 cards, one resumes counting where one left off using the top of the deck (the same top as before, no shuffling) until one manages to go through at least 7 of the 8 numbers without any correspondence, so that one has reached the King. Otherwise, if one simply resumed with the next number, which I assume is done in the "ancient"method, the count would come out exactly right with no necessity of beginning again.

Re: Mellet: Research on the Tarot

#30
mikeh wrote:
10 Oct 2019, 20:25
I have thought some more about the procedure. When de Mellet says "Finally, the suit cards will be run through three times thoroughly with the same attention" I think he means the same as in the case of the Piquet deck, i.e. that the whole operation he has just described will be run through three times. (http://www.forum.tarothistory.com/viewt ... 066#p21066). In other words, there will be three separate readings in the same session, with the same querent and query, which the reader will compare. So I think I was wrong when I said in my last post, "apparently without shuffling". Both piles are shuffled and cut for each of the three results.
I agree that by "with the same attention" he means the whole process, including shuffling, three times. I don't think he means for three separate meanings though, I think he means in drawing cards for the same reading. If he did mean three separate readings, he doesn't say so. However, we could make a note of this possibility with the Etteilla example in the notes.
He says, "We always start again until we have exhausted the deck. " I assume that means starting over at one. and then if one has not reached the King by the time one is through the 32 cards, one resumes counting where one left off using the top of the deck (the same top as before, no shuffling) until one manages to go through at least 7 of the 8 numbers without any correspondence, so that one has reached the King.
Yes, that is how I understand it too.
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

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