Re: Tractatus de deficatione sexdecim heroum, text and translation

#41
Ludophone wrote:
13 Aug 2019, 16:56
If the king is the only counting card in its suit, there is no incentive to preserve it. You would want to play it immediately the first chance you get. Kings would be out of the game after the first few tricks. With a discard, a player can void their short suit(s) making capture of a king more likely.
Indeed.

Since the kings in play would seem to count for little, I wonder if Marziano did not intend for most of the trumps to be empty. I mean, the value of a spread of trumps is to be able to capture as many court cards as possible. In Marziano's structure, that can not be their primary purpose.

But in the games that make combinations and sequences, the trumps can result in many more points. So maybe Marziano didn't think of the court-capture function, as later Tarot would, but only thought of combinations and sequences as the main point-makers.

What do you think of the king reflecting a possible "banner" (=10) in German style packs that might have been around? Viewed that way, the trumps do, in the static structure of the pack, effectively replace the four court cards in some Italian standard packs of the time (Bernardino mentions the four standard courts in 1423, king, queen, upper soldier, lower soldier, those last two again suggesting German usage, at least as we know it from later).
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Re: Tractatus de deficatione sexdecim heroum, text and translation

#42
Phaeded wrote:
12 Aug 2019, 18:29
Your new book came this past week. Very handy to have all of the Marziano-related sources in one place; also I'm assuming Aline is your wife - very nice work on the cover art; I know you posted the mock-up here but looks great in person (I especially like the thin vellum look).
Thank you! Yes, Aline is my wife. She is a professional graphic designer. She also re-did the Explaining the Tarot book into con gli occhi et con l'intelletto.. You won't see the full extent of her talents until, maybe, another thing I've been working on for years, all of the explanations for the Greek phrase Κογξ ὄμπαξ (Konx ompax) that I've been able to find. That will be set in a beautiful way, at least as beautiful as I can make it without going to a specialized printer-publisher and having to charge a lot of money for it. I want a broader audience than just bibliophiles.

Personally I'd have preferred a larger format, with bigger margins. But you can see that it is as small as I could conveniently make it, to go with the Robert Place deck. I really don't know if it works or not. But you are one of the rare readers who will know how to use the 3 biographical appendices and the Latin text.

Please send me any thoughts at all that you have on the text, or better yet, write an essay on, say, Cato or a broader topic in relation to Barzizza and Marziano. I'll put it in the "big" book of studies on the Tractatus. I can't pay you, but you'll get a couple of free copies! Unless some academic orders 50, then I'll give you a royalty.
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Re: Tractatus de deficatione sexdecim heroum, text and translation

#43
Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:
14 Aug 2019, 17:16
Phaeded wrote:
12 Aug 2019, 18:29
Please send me any thoughts at all that you have on the text, or better yet, write an essay on, say, Cato or a broader topic in relation to Barzizza and Marziano. I'll put it in the "big" book of studies on the Tractatus. I can't pay you, but you'll get a couple of free copies! Unless some academic orders 50, then I'll give you a royalty.
I'd be interested in completing the fleshing out of the why and how Plutarch was likely utilized as a supplemental source to Boccaccio in the Tractatus, but that would necessarily focus on the Vesta section, as well as touching on the Cato reference and any other potential influence on any of the other gods (keep in mind Plutarch was a priest of Apollo at Delphi, so a believer in the old gods). If that's not too speculative for you...when would you need it by? A copy of the resulting publication would be appreciated (and nothing more).

Re: Tractatus de deficatione sexdecim heroum, text and translation

#44
There's no hurry, things are pretty leisurely right now. I suppose I should give myself a deadline, which will be inevitably missed.

Here is an outline. Consider that behind each line there is a bibliography and in some cases an essay at least drafted. Except for the games section.

--------------------

Studies in Marziano da Tortona’s Tractatus de deificatione sexdecim heroum.

I. Critical text with facing translation

II. Manuscripts
1. Paris BnF lat. 8745 – copyist, history; binding; discovery, Durrieu, Pratesi, Caldwell
Facsimile b/w, transcription, apparatus
2. Queriniana C.VII.1 – description, context; Angelo Floramo?
Facsimile b/w, transcription, apparatus
3. Capialbi manuscript – the question of priority; value of Google OCR for bibliographic searches
Capialbi and Carabellese remarks
1 and 2 can be viewed online; the present facsimiles are intended only for casual reference. For detailed study, refer to the online versions which can be viewed with magnification.

III. Biographies
1. Marziano – all primary sources; Aristide Arzano, Ugo Rozzo, Edoardo Fumagalli
Gasparino Barzizza (as analogue, minus clerical career)
2. Filippo Maria Visconti – overview, with focus on games; Decembrio; laws on card games; Tarot
3. Michelino da Besozzo – depictions of gods, birds, other animals relevant to the deck
4. Jacopo Antonio Marcello – overview, relations with René d’Anjou; Scipio Caraffa, Giovanni Cossa; Margaret L. King
5. Isabelle de Lorraine – all primary sources?

IV. Mythography
The sources of Marziano’s descriptions – Boccaccio (could Marziano have known him?)
Jove
Juno
Pallas
Venus
Apollo
Neptune
Diana
Bacchus
Mercury
Mars
Vesta (Saint Gaucherius mystery)
Ceres
Hercules
Aeolus
Daphne
Cupid

V. The Suits
Eagles – imperial eagle, duchy
Phoenix – Lactantius bird of oriental wealth; should only be one, many is by definition unnatural
Turtledove – fidelity, shyness, humility
Dove – pigeon, promiscuity, pestilence with too many

VI. Moralisations and otium honestum

VII. Relation to Tarot
Conceptual or genetic? Pratesi for latter, me for former (independent invention of idea of trump suit)

VIII. Games
Solitaire
Two people
Four in partnerships
Three and more people
------------------------------------------------------

It's a work in progress. Marco has said he doesn't think he can contribute, although he is happy to give me his insights, which are frequent.
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Re: Tractatus de deficatione sexdecim heroum, text and translation

#45
Ross: Thanks for citing Lactantius as your source for the Phoenix as "the bird of untold, exotic oriental wealth". Looking in that source, http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0707.htm, I do not find where he says this. It is a bird of Egypt, yes, but that land, or the East generally, is not associated by him with wealth. What associates the Phoenix with wealth is the "yellow metal" on its tail and thighs, i.e. gold, the color of the sun. I would suggest also that another association might be its burning itself up, leaving only a small worm, just as wealth is often consumed in a flash and must be regenerated anew from the ashes. I hope if this is revised you give a footnote mentioning Lactantius and say more clearly what associates the Phoenix with wealth, since it is not the exotic orient, nor anything untold.

Another thing I had trouble with is your next sentence:
Then he abstracts (deifies) the hero-gods from this fourfold structure, and puts them into their own hierarchy from highest to lowest.
One problem is the word "deifies": the hero-gods are already deified within this fourfold structure. They cannot be deified further. Another problem is the word "abstracts" and what you conclude from that word. It is true that he does not restate the fourfold structure as such, but that is ecause there is no need, he has already stated it, But it remains very much present in his descriptions of the gods. For Riches we have (I quote from your old translation, which I can simply copy and paste):
Juno: They add a beautiful but harmful bird, covered in eyed feathers; because rich men are adorned, but harmful, and the potentate requires many eyes for watching after riches and earthly things. They assign her one colourful rainbow, welcome in appearance, but quickly disappearing. For in fact it is by her agreement that the limit of time of increase in things is granted, since in a short time it can perish and flow away. [This is also a clue to why the phoenix.]

Neptune: .. whose monstrous kingdom is held to have the Sirens, who by sweet song soothe sailors, summoning sleep; and having put them to sleep, afterwards bring about their shipwreck. Indeed it is understood among voluptuous women how to ensnare men by fluent and alluring speech alone, and by sweetness of words to lead them continuously to ruin.

Mars: Mars, whose chariot, distinguished by a thousand excellent things taken from enemies, we will place as tenth. Although savage and bold, he was warded off by Jove, who would not permit him to be first or equal, unless he should prove invincible. Not being permitted himself to destroy the whole world, he petitioned heaven to be allowed to rule over such as had that desire. Out of the bramble, and ferocious, he stirred up anger, thus far threatening to the lands. ... With cruel sword, dripping with blood, he aims at the road.

Aeolus: to his authority it was conceded, like Virgil, to soothe the waves, and by the wind to raise them, and in whatever way to agitate in all respects the kingdom of Neptune. By his command the appearance of this world is very often changeful. The hills become covered in white, the woods are laid bare; the plains become dirty, and what were formerly rushing torrents, freeze. The whole earth itself begins to shiver. In frenzy sometimes the now-ripe gifts of Ceres and Bacchus perish, ... Furthermore he is god of the clouds and the power of the hail-storm; being powerful in the mid-day to cover the land in darkness, and to give back the light itself after having been put to flight by the darkness. ... Described being dressed as a king, enthroned among the cliffs of his islands, bringing up a gale by the sceptre, ... [i.e. luring men to their doom after calm seas]
And Pleasures:
Venus: ...Described as in a sufficiently wanton condition, with free-flowing hair, breast and arms exposed, knee bare; in the showing of these, more easily to entice to love; lightly clothed by a lynx pelt, since fleeting and being in the midst of brief pleasure; through the forest with a ready bow and gathered quiver, intent on hunting – to hunt and wound the souls of men wandering in the gloom.

Bacchus:. ... By his suggestion, after the grape had been discovered, and he laid aside the drinking cup of the spring, and by the pleasantness of tasting, by no means did he exhaust the drunken stream, the ruin of the human race. ... According to the nature of being drunk, he is called Liber, since by the same, while he reigns, he renders men unimpeded and free of cares. Twin tigers pull the chariot, since drunkenness sometimes leads to the ferocity of tigers. [Pratesi suggests that his cane is for the support of drunks: "Secondo il suo nome, porta un bastone per il sostegno degli ubriachi. "]

Ceres [basically positive but there is also this, to remind us of gluttony]: from this comes our greater happiness if we should enjoy the gifts of Ceres and Bacchus not in luxury but for normal desire and in moderation.

Cupid: [after a torrent of invective he ends:] ... In flight, thus marking the instability of lovers; girded with human hearts, since he triumphs as victor of these. Nude, only because lovers desire one another completely; with a full bow, he wanders through heaven and earth wanton and in flagrant desire; whose arms, pestilent to gods and men, Jupiter himself is not able to escape.
To be sure, he also has good things to say about these gods; after all, they are heroes. Gut for the ones in the other two categories, he does not mention any vices that I see. So there is no indication that he has shed, or abstracted from, the fourfold structure. It is still very much there, and how to reconcile that structure with the order by which each "leads all the others following in sequence" remains at issue.

It may be that Marziano has simply not thought out how the fourfold order is to be played out in the game, or else he is assuming the reader (Filippo) knows the conventions from other games with permanent trump suits (of which VIII Emperadori would be a candidate). How the fourfold order is reflected in the game remains a problem. It may be that, as you say in another thread, one is simply invited to be conscious of the moral virtue or vice attached to each god as one plays. But from his emphasis on the fourfold order, I would think it was something more substantive, which could be generalized to other games with permanent trump suits.

One possibility is, as Ludophone suggests, extra points for combinations of gods in one of the four moral orders: so many points for 3, or 4, or even 5 (including the King, or specified accumulations of number cards). However he has not discussed scoring at all in this treatise, so I doubt if that is what he had in mind, unless it was already conventional.

Another possibility is that there is some rule pertaining to "following suit" that we don't know about, or that he hasn't yet thought of.

I once suggested that if the four moral orders were extensions of the suits, as Pratesi stated in 1989, that might mean that one would have to play a trump that was part of the extension of the suit led even if one didn't want to. For example, suppose a Dove is led, and someone out of Doves has put down Jove. If I have Cupid, I have to play that card even though it will be taken.

I no longer think that is a viable rule, for two reasons. First, with no suit-signs on the "extensions", there will be many misplays, to be discovered later and penalized, with hurt feelings if the player is a child. It promotes distrust of other players, too, and the idea that if one follows the rules one will probably lose. Not good.

A better rule would be that one can play a trump in the corresponding moral order even when one is not out of suit cards. That does not violate anything said later. Then one would have to be very careful playing a king early on. The right demigod could capture it.

And perhaps even stronger: a trump played in the moral order connected to the suit led beats any trump played not in that order. So in the example I gave earlier, when a Dove is led, Cupid would beat Jove, as opposed to the other way around. I am not sure whether that would be an exception to what is said later, about the order from Jupiter to Cupid, becuse the order stil holds, it is merely pre-empted in this case. What seems to me to support this hypothesis is that it explains how it could be, in his game, that Cupid could capture Jove, as he seems to imply at the end of his description of Cupid. “With a full bow, he wanders through heaven and earth wanton and in flagrant desire; whose arms, pestilent to gods and men, Jupiter himself is not able to escape."

In this connection I would point out a mistranslation, again in your introduction. In the table of gods, "ordo" does not translate as "suit". It translates as "order". Actually, I cannot find the phrase "ordo deorum" anywhere in the text, referring to all 16. Perhaps it is implied somewhere, I don't know Latin well enough to tell. But it seems to me that for Marziano there are four orders of gods and four orders of birds. While it seems legitimate to see the birds as four suits, it is not at all clear that the gods constitute a fifth suit in that same sense. To say so is an interpretation, not a translation of anything Marziano says.

One final suggestion is that when you say in your last post
VII. Relation to Tarot
Conceptual or genetic? Pratesi for latter, me for former (independent invention of idea of trump suit)
"Genetic" is a loaded term. There are two types of "genetic": "ancestor" and "cousin". That is to say, tarot may not be descended from Marziano's game, but the two may have a common ancestor. In fact they obviously do have a common ancestor: ordinary cards with four suits of which some are numbers and some courts. The question then is whether they have a common ancestor closer than that. Karnoffel or Kaiserspiel would be closer, if there was some relationship. VIII Imperadori might be even closer, if the imperadori were permanent trumps. You might argue that there is no relationship of VIII Imperadori to tarot either, since the one was 1423 and the other 1438 or so. Then there is the question of whether VIII Imperadori in 1423 is the same game as VIII Imperadori in the 1440s. But I really don't see why such a game might not have survived from 1423 Ferrara to 1440s Ferrara. In other words, the category "genetic" is either obviously true or to be further defined, not necessarily ancestral.

Added later: Ross wrote,
(Bernardino mentions the four standard courts in 1423, king, queen, upper soldier, lower soldier, those last two again suggesting German usage, at least as we know it from later).
Perhaps you get that from Dummett, 1980. According to Andrea Vitali it is actually in Sermo 42, Contra alearum ludos, delivered in Siena, 1425. http://www.letarot.it/page.aspx?id=227. The significance is that Dummett says that the latest biography, post 1472, mentioning triumphs in the sermon of 1423 Bologna, differed from the earlier biography of 1445 on this issue. But the earlier biography, the one mentioning queens, etc., was in a different city, and only shows that Triumphs in 1425 had not yet reached Siena and says nothing about whether they were present in Bologna.

Re: Tractatus de deficatione sexdecim heroum, text and translation

#46
mikeh wrote:
16 Aug 2019, 01:49
Added later: Ross wrote,
(Bernardino mentions the four standard courts in 1423, king, queen, upper soldier, lower soldier, those last two again suggesting German usage, at least as we know it from later).
Perhaps you get that from Dummett, 1980. According to Andrea Vitali it is actually in Sermo 42, Contra alearum ludos, delivered in Siena, 1425. http://www.letarot.it/page.aspx?id=227. The significance is that Dummett says that the latest biography, post 1472, mentioning triumphs in the sermon of 1423 Bologna, differed from the earlier biography of 1445 on this issue. But the earlier biography, the one mentioning queens, etc., was in a different city, and only shows that Triumphs in 1425 had not yet reached Siena and says nothing about whether they were present in Bologna.
No, it's Bernardino, but the date is my constant mistake, it is really 1425, and it is just "sopra" and "sotto," not upper and lower soldiers. It is a vernacular sermon, recorded by followers as he delivered it. It is not identical to the Latin sermones he wrote down in the early 1440s.

Here is the text from a text of Thierry, in 2013.
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=975&p=14441&hilit=milites#p14441
(you are involved in this thread; see, e.g., post 53)
This excerpt from his paper has the advantage of comparing the 1425 vernacular sermon with the c. 1442 Latin one, where he qualifies the "sopra" and "sotto" as "milites inferiores et superiores."

The volume of sermons it comes from is rare; I had to write the to the Pontifical Institute at the University of Toronto in 2005 to get a copy of it.

Thierry didn't recognize that "sopra" and "sotto" meant the same as "Ober" and "Unter" in German packs when he published that article.
See also this post from 2015 -
viewtopic.php?t=1062&start=10#p16281

In any case, it is the earliest mention of a queen, and four courts, in the kind of cards Bernardino was referring to, which must have been the kind the Sienese knew. I infer from this that the 56 card pack was standard for long enough to become the basis for Tarot. Later, the Italians dropped the queen in all packs except Tarocchi and Minchiate. Spanish packs did the same, except we have no proof they ever had a queen. French packs did it differently, they kept the queen and suppressed the knight.
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Re: Tractatus de deficatione sexdecim heroum, text and translation

#47
mikeh wrote:
16 Aug 2019, 01:49
Ross: Thanks for citing Lactantius as your source for the Phoenix as "the bird of untold, exotic oriental wealth". Looking in that source, http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0707.htm, I do not find where he says this. It is a bird of Egypt, yes, but that land, or the East generally, is not associated by him with wealth. What associates the Phoenix with wealth is the "yellow metal" on its tail and thighs, i.e. gold, the color of the sun. I would suggest also that another association might be its burning itself up, leaving only a small worm, just as wealth is often consumed in a flash and must be regenerated anew from the ashes. I hope if this is revised you give a footnote mentioning Lactantius and say more clearly what associates the Phoenix with wealth, since it is not the exotic orient, nor anything untold.
It is, though. The best little survey is Rhiannon Evans, Utopia antiqua: readings of the golden age and decline at Rome (Routledge, 2008), pp. 8-14., beginning –
“Eastern plenty

“One possible location for the utopian was to the East, building on Greek traditions, and the fact tht luxury goods emanated from this direction. Arabia is most commonly associated with plenty and sensuality, and especially with the production of exotic spices and fragrances – an important trading source for these products. It was tagged as Arabia Felix (‘Blessed Arabia’), suggesting riches, bounty and luxuriant fertility in combination with its relative distance from Roma, this region becomes an ideal location for utopian longing. Although Arabia is not often alluded to in pre-Augustan texts, it does occur as a location of mystery and riches in Plautus’ ‘orientalist’ plays – this is the place where luxury goods can be sourced.”

https://books.google.fr/books?id=0YWCAg ... 22&f=false

The connection with the phoenix with oriental riches is twofold: with the orient as its birthplace and home (Arabia, Egypt, Ethiopia, India; both Egypt and Ethiopia are “oriental” in the classical sense (up to the present in the case of Egypt)); and with the spices and woods it uses for its funeral pyre.

Here are some other notes -

Phoenix as riches

The dominant meaning of the phoenix is rebirth or renewal, the very source of our common expression “rising from the ashes.” R. van den Broek gives a typical summary of the symbolism of the bird “The phoenix could symbolize renewal in general as well as the sun, Time, the Empire, metempsychosis, consecration, resurrection, life in the heavenly Paradise, Christ, Mary, virginity, the exceptional man, and certain aspects of Christian life.” (p. 9)

But Marziano defines the phoenix as the bird of riches, emphasizing a specific aspect of the symbolism of the phoenix.

Marziano’s attribution of the phoenix as the bird associated with riches is surprising. Riches is one of the suits of temptation, where less is better than more, yet the phoenix is associated with positive qualities such as beauty, strength, and immortality.
In classical writers the bird’s home is in the east, usally Arabia, exotic and luxurious in the western imagination. The bird itself is golden.

The adjectives “dives” and “opulens” also occur in close proximity in Lactantius, lines 79-80:

colligit hinc succos et odores divite silva
quos legit Assyrus quos opulentus Arabs


From here she gathers together perfums and saps from the costly wood,
Which the Assyrian, the wealthy Arab, harvests.

Keith Harris thesis translation and commentary, 1978 (p. 51, 86; this is the best analysis of Lactantius I have found):

“Here, from the sumptuous woods, she collects juices and perfumes that the Assyrian picks, that the wealthy Arab, or the tribes of Pygmies, or India plucks, or the Sabaean land grows in its soft bosom.” (p. 51)

“79-82: Lactantius shows himself as the great synthesizer of the myth. Writers before him had connected the phoenix with many parts of the world. Achilles Tatius 3.25.3 mentions Ethiopia as the home of the phoenix; in the second century Lucian De Morte Pere.27 and Navigium 44 connects the bird with India, as do the slightly later versions of Philostratus Vita Apoll.3.49, Idem. Epist. 8, Greek Physiologus 7, Dionysius De Aucup.1.32, Aristides Aelius 180.3 (Dindorf), Heliodorus 6.3.3 (Ethiopia too). The connection with Assyria and Phoenicia have already been mentioned (line 65) and there remains only the well-known story about the bird’s origins in Arabia, first reported by Herodotus 2.73, a location followed later by Pliny Hist. Nat.10. 3.1., Clement 25, Ep. ad Cor. Tacitus Ann.6.28, Tert. De Res. 13, Origen Contra Celsum 4.98, Solinus Coll. Rer. Mem. 33.11.
“Lactantius hints at all these places without comitting himself to any of them as a home for the phoenix, which nests but does not live in Phoenicia (lines 65-66). This combines to give a very exotic image of the bird. All the aforementioned places were, of course, famous for their spices in the ancient world. Lactantius is intentionally silent on details of the exact location of the area over which the phoenix searches out the sucos et odores. He implies, but does not say explicitly, that it visits Assyria, Arabia, India and the land of the Pygmies.” (p. 86)

https://open.library.ubc.ca/cIRcle/coll ... /1.0094332

Also available is a comprehensive survey by Roel van den Broek, The Myth of the Phoenix According to Classical and Early Christian Traditions
https://www.academia.edu/38136335/Myth_ ... roek_BRILL_
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Re: Tractatus de deficatione sexdecim heroum, text and translation

#49
Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:
15 Aug 2019, 18:05

Here is an outline. ...
--------------------


IV. Mythography
The sources of Marziano’s descriptions – Boccaccio (could Marziano have known him?)
> Marziano’s supplemental use of Plutarch?
I would suggest my proposed contribution be inserted per above. Is your section largely going to reflect what you have in the already published work? If not, would you mind sharing that draft?

The gist of my argument would be that Boccaccio did not have access to Plutarch and, following the first wave of translations of Plutarch (c.1390-1420), Marziano "updated/modernized" Boccaccio in relation to the contemporary scholarship discussed above.

But why especially Vesta? The French royals and then the Visconti (with other elites then following suit) invented/claimed historical Trojan/Roman ancestors and inserted them into their own genealogies, of which we have Besozzo's genealogical illumination - of course, the same artist for the Marziano deck (but the context for the latter is the genealogy). Claiming Anchises as an ancestor meant an acute interest in the the earliest/mythical Trojan foundation period of Rome, for which Plutarch is especially abundant in his lives of Romulus (himself born of a wayward Vestal, Rhea Silvia, herself a descendant of Aeneas) and Numa (who, contradictorily time-wise to the Romulus maternal myth, founded the cult of Vesta). Vesta is thus central to the Roman royal bloodline as well as the "tutelary goddess of genealogy" in general, in that all colonial cities and families got the flame for their own hearth from her; expectant mothers too received a blessing before the ignes aeternum ("sacred fire") in the Temple of Vesta. The specific Visconti connection to Vesta, again, is through their ancestor Anchises: the Trojan Palladium of Pallas Athena and the di Penates were brought from Troy into Italy by Anchises's son, Aeneas, and then housed in the Temple of Vesta. The Palladium of Athena was, in the words of Livy: fatale pignus imperii Romani ("[a] pledge of destiny for the Roman empire"). And that was what the French and Italian despots aspired to - claimants of a reborn Roman civilization, "with good right" (that "right" was substantially based on this bogus genealogy). Marziano's 16 "heroes" fleshes out the mythical substratum from which Anchises' line was born, amidst the enduring struggles of virtue versus riches, chastity ("viriginities") versus pleasures (almost placed on the same level as the four elements). Vesta is not just an exemplar of chastity - but every bit as much as Diana, Daphne and Minerva/Athena (again Athena's palladium itself was housed in Vesta's temple) - but central to the entire Roman enterprise at its inception. Venus is thus pleasure that allowed the human/divine interaction resulting in the genealogy, while Vesta is the embodiment of Virtue that guided that genealogy to empire. All of this is why Marziano sought out the supplemental information on Vesta culled from a relevant source unknown to Boccaccio, but rather newly available in his own day.

Obviously we should coordinate this so I can mention the nachleben of Marziano's Vesta by referencing your ensuing discussion of the Saint Gaucherius mystery in the Vesta chapter proper.

Re: Tractatus de deficatione sexdecim heroum, text and translation

#50
I'd be interested in seeing you present a formal argument suggesting Marziano's use of Plurtarch. I know it is circumstantial and indirect, unless you can find some Latin translation that reflects some near phraseology in the Tractatus. That would be superb.

I have found echoes of Livy here and there, which is not surprising since Decembrio implies that Marziano read Livy with Filippo - that's page 108 or Appendix 2B.
Is your section largely going to reflect what you have in the already published work?
No, not at all. In the present edition I deliberately avoided annotations to the text. Not only would they be burdensome to the intended audience, those with Place's deck, but they would have delayed the publication for much longer. It is already probably too much for the casual reader, but I did want to get the Latin out as soon as possible, not least for you and Mike. The Brescia manuscript was a godsend; without it, we would never have caught some mistakes in the Paris copy, or perhaps even resolved some abbreviations correctly.

I could also publish it at a very cheap price; a book of 300 pages or more, as the next will be, will be at least double the price.
would you mind sharing that draft?
Which part? I can tidy up the introduction to the mythography for you; the list of relevant chapters in Boccaccio is already posted here, somewhere. Unfortunately Jon Solomon's I Tatti edition is not complete for books 11-15, but the very old French and Italian translations are perfectly usable in any case.
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