Re: Gebelin: Misc. Notes & Links

#22
[Reserved for additional notes and links.]


LINKS TO TEXT AND TRANSLATIONS ONLINE

Court de Gébelin's original essay in Monde Primitif is online here:
https://archive.org/details/mondeprimit ... r/page/364

French text is also online here:
http://www.letarot.com/pages-vrac/pages ... belin.html

Donald Tyson's translation is available through the wayback machine here:
https://web.archive.org/web/20111004232 ... belin.html

A partial translation on tarotpedia together with a transcription of the French text is available on the wayback machine here:
https://web.archive.org/web/20160730161 ... Des_Tarots

A recent partial translation (up to and including Article V) is available courtesy of Sable Feather Press here:
http://www.sablefeatherpress.com/Antoin ... e_Gebelin/

The rules of the game, as described by Gebelin, were translated by Samuel Singer in his Researches into the history of playing cards : with illustrations of the origin of printing and engraving on wood, 1816, and is available online here:

https://archive.org/details/researchesi ... /page/n289

The rules according to Gebelin were also given by S. L. MacGregor Mathers in his The Tarot, 1888, and is available online here:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/tarot/mathers/mtar05.htm

[He also quotes Gebelin's first couple of paragraphs in his introduction.]

TRANSLATIONS IN PRINT

Rhapsodies of the Bizarre Paperback – 2007
by J. Karlin

Du Jeu des Tarots et Recherches Sur les Tarots: from Monde Primitif Book VIII by Antoine Court de Gébelin - 2017
by Evalyne K Hall

The rules for a two-handed French tarot game, after that described by Gebelin, is published in:

A History of Games Played with the Tarot Pack, The Game Of Triumphs, 2004, [Volume 1, Chapter 3.2, p39]
by Michael Dummet and John McLeod
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Gebelin: comments

#23
Still a fair amount of editing on this to do - formatting, corrections, amendments, suggestions, notes, links, comments welcomed.
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Gebelin: Introduction

#24
Wonderful. Here are a few suggestions for minor changes.

"hit the roof" in colloquial English means "get very angry". I'd suggest "hit the rafters".

"layers or pages" . Seems not what meant by "feuillets ou tableaux" "sheets or scenes", perhaps, or "sheets or pictures"., even "sheets or tableaus".

"work together". I suggest "go together". for "marcher de pair"

establishment of any knowledge. "establishment of any expertise" or "establishment of any field of knowledge"

"these wise people" should be "this Wise People".

Governor of Province - a Provincial Governor

"found" - has found

game with a very ingenious sagacity the - game, with a very ingenious sagacity, the

that distinguished the first bands of Egyptians, - that were distinguished by the first Egyptian Bands

our card games - our Packs of Cards. (But perhaps you will have a note explaining that "jeu" in French means both "game" and "pack", as most of the time when he speaks of "game" he means "pack" or perhaps "game/pack". But here in particular the sense of "pack" has to be understood.)

to drag their heels - your expression has the sense of "lag behind", but that is not what is meant. I cannot figure it out precisely. Something like: "so that the others seem, in some manner, hardly able to drag themselves along in their footsteps. "

was always mute - has always been mute

Possibly - That may be.

and not having any relation with - without any relation to

charged - loaded

over it - on it

selected and significant relations - visible rapports selected

with all - to all

of making - to make

Chiefs - Heads

like a fool - like the fool

he is susceptive - it is susceptible

though one places it in play - though it is placed in the game

I do not think "Juggler"' should be there, for "Bateleur". It is not a good translation. "Juggler" in the sense meant is an archaic meaning, not the person who keeps balls in the air that he is in modern English. Just leave it "Bateleur," with a note about whatever a good French dictionary says the word means.

states - estates (that is, levels of society)

Chiefs of Society - Heads of Society

much less still - much less yet

Well, I'm starting to glaze over. More later.

Re: Gebelin: Introduction

#25
mikeh wrote:
16 Jul 2019, 12:54
Wonderful. Here are a few suggestions for minor changes.
Thanks Mike! I have taken your suggestions on board, and made some changes. A few quibbles with some of your suggestions:
"hit the roof" in colloquial English means "get very angry". I'd suggest "hit the rafters".
I've changed it to:
"reach its peak" ? (exhaust itself? 'max out' I think fits the meaning, but the tonality is wrong - to modern and colloquial :D)
our card games - our Packs of Cards. (But perhaps you will have a note explaining that "jeu" in French means both "game" and "pack", as most of the time when he speaks of "game" he means "pack" or perhaps "game/pack". But here in particular the sense of "pack" has to be understood.)
I've made that change, but for the rest made a note for now, but will look at changing them all according to context when I have time.
Possibly - That may be.

That's what I had originally - but your comments in the other thread made me look at it again and change it (That may be, or possibly, are both I think ok here, though 'that may be' is the more literal translation, and I have gone back to it.) Your remarks in the other thread also made me think whether this piece of dialogue was clear condensed in the paragraph (after Gebelin), so spaced it out (as is the norm in English with dialogue).
over it - on it
'over it' rather than 'on it' with 'cast [one's] eyes' is I think the more usual idiomatic usage in [british] English, but anyways I have changed it to:

"As soon as I lay my eyes on it I see the allegory."
(Alternatively, "As soon as I look at it I see the allegory.")
selected and significant relations - visible rapports selected
I agree with you my own attempt here is not very clear - but I'm not sure your own suggestion makes it any clearer. It is a hard sentence I was finding difficult to understand and make sense of. Looking into it further I found that 'choisi[n]', chosen, selected - could also mean discerned, and 'sensible' - archaically 'sensible', more commonly in modern french 'sensitive', could also [though more rarely] be interpreted according to context as 'sympathy'.

Taking this into account I re-did it, and it makes much more sense I think (to me at least), but that does not necessarily mean it's correct:

"Since it was not the play of our imagination, but the result of the discerned relations and sympathy of the game with all that we knew of Egyptian ideas,..."
I do not think "Juggler"' should be there, for "Bateleur". It is not a good translation. "Juggler" in the sense meant is an archaic meaning, not the person who keeps balls in the air that he is in modern English. Just leave it "Bateleur," with a note about whatever a good French dictionary says the word means.

I used it meaning in the archaic sense, but was struggling whether to or not considering its lesser semantic range in modern English. I have changed it back to bateleur for now, and will add a note to it.
much less still - much less yet
I agree that "much less still" is not correct, the 'still' is not required, but I'm not sure 'yet' is needed either, I think:

let alone / not to mention / much less / still less, e.g.,

let alone one under the name of POPESSE, as German card makers have ridiculously named her.
much less one under the name of POPESSE,
still less one under the name of POPESSE,
not to mention one under the name of POPESSE,


I suppose 'under the name of'' is so much filler too, which you can replace simply with 'named':

much less one named [the?] POPESSE, ...
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Gebelin: Introduction

#27
Thanks again Mike for taking the time to read closely and for your helpful suggestions. Please keep them coming!
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Gebelin: Introduction

#28
OK. I hope that in the sentence about Horace you change "he is susceptive" to "it is susceptible" as the pronoun is "elle", referring to "idee."

Seeker of the True and Just -Seeker of Truth and the Just

epigram like, are of all ages - particularly Epigrammatic, for all time

Cardmakers - The Cardmakers

star - celestial body (the distinction between astre and etoile)

relations -- accounts, narratives (?)

greed - gluttony

Typhoon - Typhon

he likes to own them. - he loves well those who are his.

To this ensemble - For this ensemble

demanded that her son brought back - insisted that her son bring back

goatskin bottles - goatskins [goatskin flasks]

lovers - suitors (?)

Cardmakers (in XX)- The Cardmakers

arrived in Time - happening in Time

composed - made up


More later.

Re: Gebelin: Introduction

#29
A couple I missed:

to make it more sensible - to make it more recognizable

finest trick that they had made - finest trick that they had done

I continue:

that it is relative - as it is relative

that most - as most

that this game - this game

our Countries - our Regions

make a single - produce a single

citizens, and - the citizens, since

arranging fate, or, casting a spell - arranging fates, or casting spells

which we play it - in which it is played

have understood correctly - have understood him correctly

we played three: - there were three;

Reserve or Death; Reserve or Mort [dead hand]

discarding three of them - discarding three [from his hand]

five great Trumps. - five big Trumps.

greatest figures - greatest cards (?)

sacrifice - to sacrifice

dinary or denier - dinar or denarius (here see Wikipedia)

Tarot par excellence - Tarots par excellence

The Pagad [Juggler] - The Pagad

four figures - four court cards (?) ("Figure" is difficult to translate, as "figure" has no clear meaning in English in this context. Perhaps "picture cards")

worth ten points, = worth ten more points,

The way to play the cards. - Manner of playing these Cards

forms a Trump - constitutes a Trump

take the Juggler - take the Pagad

the figures - the cards (?)

when the game is started wins - once the game has started who wins

his face - his front

would have - will have

may have - will have

Edom, who - Idumea [Edom], which

Susa [ancient - Sufiana [Susa, ancient (Are you sure it's Susa? He might have been thinking of the Sufi as a people.)

Delta or Low Egypt - the Delta or Lower Egypt

the Gaetuli, which was placed in the South - the Gaetuli, who were placed south

wide - widespread

Nigeria - Nigritie [Nigeria]

Baetica rich in herds, the Celtiberia - Baetica (Andalusia) rich in herds, Celtiberia

of their habits, of their uses, - of their customs, of their practices

to revive - to renew

for those which they have already given rise to - for that which they have already brought forth

circulation does not play with freedom - circulation is not given free play

take into account all the many countries. - keep accounts in all the many countries (?)

on which all the stars rest by carrying out their revolutions around it - on which all the celestial bodies are supported in executing their revolutions around it

in fire characters printed - in characters of fire impressed

based as the sciences - based, like the Sciences,

All others - All the others

and are governed = and who are governed

shakeup in - shake to

his care - his endeavors

planning - not forgetting

Juggler - Bâteleur

triumphant is - triumphant, is

does not make any school - is of no school

would be the - would be, or nearly so,

Re: Gebelin: Introduction

#30
Thanks Mike! Much appreciated.
mikeh wrote:
17 Jul 2019, 11:19
Susa [ancient - Sufiana [Susa, ancient (Are you sure it's Susa? He might have been thinking of the Sufi as a people.)

It's Susiana I think, not Sufiana (it has been transcribed wrong, confusing s with f). But Susa is wrong in that Susiana refers to the region named after its major City Susa, not just Susa itself. I have replaced it with Susiana and provided a link. I have done the same with several others of the more obscure ones. I have had difficulty finding a link for Atlantes (Africa) in English, and included a link to a french one for now (where non-French speakers can at least see the area it covered from the map). Wikipedia is difficult for me to access in Turkey as it's blocked, I can get it for now using a VPN, but several VPNs are also blocked, and no doubt they will get around to blocking the one I am currently using at the moment. If you know of a good link for Atlantes, Africa in English let me know and I will include it.

on which all the stars rest by carrying out their revolutions around it - on which all the celestial bodies are supported in executing their revolutions around it
I think 'stars' [or 'constellations'] is the more correct here, as it is referring to the circling of the stars/constellations around Polaris (the North Star, in the constellation of Ursa Minor), not to celestial bodies in general.
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests

cron