Phaeded wrote: ↑01 Jul 2018, 19:22
There are so many glossing over of the facts in order to make the Petrarch theory work that it still makes the head spin.
No one in Quattrocento northern Italy would make the equation of Justice with sword = Fama without an an attribute of Fama. (hell, the Peselino c. 1450 example of Fame at the end of my post doesn't even hold a sword]
Chariot-as-Chastity only exist in a single exemplar, the CY (which speaks of a bride's chastity, Bianca's, versus the abstract virtue, and indeed Chasitity's shield is personalized with the Visconti radiate dove, not some generic "chastity" symbol). Moreover, If Petrarch was the organizing principle why does every other example of the Chariot show a MALE???
The Dick Tarot is a follower of this. The PMB has also a female charioteer. You definitely spoke nonsense with " why does every other example of the Chariot show a MALE???". Isn't it curious, that just those decks, which are considered very early, had the female charioteer? The earliest male charioteer, from which we know, is the male figure in the Charles VI Trionfi deck.
Especially vexing is your continued assumption that the surviving PMB cards somehow form a complete tarot set (instead of the consensus opinion that these are surviving cards forming part of a deck). At all events, most of these have NOTHING to do with Petrarch
We speak of a card deck type, which developed in long years, even centuries. Is it not imaginable for you, that this object changed with the time? Or that there were different interpretations even at the same time? That Florentine and and Ferrarese and Milanese decks had local differences? That even decks in one city might have been different considerably?
Is it clear to you, that we know from the complete Trionfi development in 15th century probably only less than 1percent ? The Petrarca Trionfi fashion started 1440, as far we know it from the letter of Piero di Medici. From the same time we have the first Trionfi card deck note. Do you indeed assume, that this was accidental?
We have no Trionfi card note, which tells us, that decks with 22 trumps existed till the Boiardo Trionfi card poem, which I date to c. 1487. If you know something different, you could tell me. We have on the other side the 70 cards note in 1457 (which indicates a 5x14 deck), the 14 pictures mentioned at 1.1.1441 and we have the 14 trump cards of the first painter of the PMB. Sure, that is not much, but the argument for early decks with 22 trumps have less evidence, cause there is nothing. Second to this we've a broad tradition of decks with 5 suits (already mentioned 1377), which was not so common as decks with 4 suits, but not really rare. Between these is also deck with 5x14-structure (Master PW).
Magician (1 in the game with the Milanese order) [not in Petrarch]
Popess (2) [not in Petrarch]
Empress (3) [not in Petrarch]
Emperor (4) [not in Petrarch]
Pope (5) [not in Petrarch]
Chariot (woman on chariot) (7) [only in the CY]
Justice (with knight) (8) [not in Petrarch]
Father Time (with hourglass) (9) [I would argue this is Saturn, but besides the point]
Wheel (10) [not in Petrarch, and Time can't be represented twice as both the "Hermit" and "Wheel"]
(0 or 11 ?) = Fool [not in Petrarch]
Hanging Man (Traitor) (12) [not in Petrarch]
(14 ? or 20) Jugement [not in Petrarch, and is not Eternity, which contemporary depiction has God in heaven with angels, not salvation and damning of those on earth; the Pesellino example of Petrarch's Eternity makes this abundantly clear below, showing the sequence of Fame (sans sword), Time and Eternity]
"Development" means, that something changes with the time. If Petrarca had 6 allegorical figures, later decks might have incorporated the 6 Petrarca figures plus figures from other contexts. Minchiate includes for example the 12 zodiac signs plus 4 elements plus 7 virtues plus etc ... is that astonishing to you? Don't you recognize the zodiac signs, if they appear in a Minchiate?
The picture of the Judgement is a little strange for "Eternity", but Eternity knows many variants in the Petrarca editions.
Sure, these pictures have the theme, that Eternity wins over the 5 figures or wins over Time, a theme which became popular especially in France.
Is it impossible, that the old man in the bathtub with two younger girls was meant as "Father Time"? Just in the case of a funny painter in the year 1452?
Well, might be, that the figure left is a man. Father Time with Adam and Eve.