Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

#411
Huck wrote:
... .-) ... if Colleoni had this motto and it was a matter of some relevance, then either Isabella would have known it, or she would have been told that Colleoni had already used it.

[/quote]

The motto was a commonplace. The originallity or invention was not in its usage, but the context.

To suggest that Isabelle, who in her early teens mastered both greek and latin, was not aware of this, is bizarre. See above about renaissance ideas re 'inventione'.

Another person who used the motto, albeit in French (but nonetheless which shows it was known pre-Isabelle), was Charles II, Duke of Bourbon (1434 - 1488), who had an emblem of a flaming sword with the motto N’espoir ny peur (neither hope nor fear).
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

#412
Clarifications :

Connections between the Este and Colleoni families (the shield is Bartolomeo Colleoni - 1400-1475)
Baptismal gift : 1492

Is this is right, then the motto was Colleoni's before being Isabelle's secret Motto. It could come from
a Latin translation of Lucian (of Samosata), "Life of Demonax" (Demonactis Vita), was made by Lapo da Castiglioncho (1405-1438) .
But he is not the first : After Guarini, the humanists of the XVth cen-tury enumerated by Forster are: Aurispa, Lapo, Birago da Castiglionchio, Filelfo, Accolti, Bartolommeo della Fonte, Poggio, Kinuccio da Castiglione,
Bordo
:https://archive.org/stream/jstor-457203/457203_djvu.txt

See Note bas de page.

Or if I m wrong, can someone explain me this old post of Ross :
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.ph ... 552&page=6

Apparently John Shephard once argued that the card [with nec spe nec metu] was actually the World!

He also apparently found connections between the Este and Colleoni families (the shield is Bartolomeo Colleoni - 1400-1475).

"Shephard maintains that the pack from which these four cards come was a baptismal gift. The father of Isabella, Ercole d'Este, duke of Ferrara, was the uncle of Niccolò da Correggio, whose wife was Cassandra, daughter of the famous condottiero Bartolomeo Colleoni (1400-1476). In 1492, at the baptism of Isotta, daughter of Niccolò and Cassandra, the marquis Francesco II Gonzaga, husband of Isabella, held the baby in his arms at the baptismal font. Shephard believes that this occasion is the reason for which these cards were made."
(Dummett, Il Mondo e l'Angelo (1993), p. 60. (my translation))


Ross and Huck at time had this discussion :

The phrase "nec spe nec metu" occurs in a Latin translation of Lucian (of Samosata), "Life of Demonax" (Demonactis Vita), of which the earliest I can find was made by Lapo da Castiglioncho (he only lived 1405-1438).

"Interrogatus a quodam Demonax, quis nam suo iudicio faelicitatis Terminus haberetur, Dixit solum liberum esse faelicem. Illo dicente multos esse liberos, "At illum, inquit, puto qui nec timet aliquid nec sperat". "Qui istud, inquit, ille fieri potest? ut plurimum enim omnes istis servimus" .
"At vero, respondit Demonax, Si animadvertas hominum res invenies Vtique eas nec spe nec metu dignas."

Lapo - as far I remember - had been in Ferrara (council) in 1438, possibly he died there (there was a plague in autumn). The young girls Isotta and Beatrice might have known him. Lucian is "funny" and perhaps Lapo was also funny.

Ross added a translation and asked a question...

Quote:
Lucian, Life of Demonax,
“Asked for a definition of Happiness, he said that only the free was happy. 'Well,' said the questioner, 'there is no lack of free men.'--'I count no man free who is subject to hopes and fears.'--'You ask impossibilities; of these two we are all very much the slaves.' 'Once grasp the nature of human affairs,' said Demonax, 'and you will find that they justify neither hope nor fear, since both pain and pleasure are to have an end.'”
(trans. Fowler, 1905)

Who first translated Lucian into Latin?
This might suggest where both Bartolomeo Colleoni and Isabella d’Este got it.
(it might be in Gianolo’s footnote, but I can’t see that)
As far I know it, Lucian wasn't completely translated. Somehow he was detected around this time. Guarino made his texts known to Alberti, and Alberti translated two texts(I think, short after 1440. Further he wrote then in longer years his "Momus" (till 1450), reflecting a Lucian theme.


Biblio: https://archive.org/stream/jstor-457203/457203_djvu.txt
Lapo de Castiglioncho

The country house of Lapo's family, situated in the hills about ten miles east of Florence, is still called
Castiglionchio, though only one tower of the old villa is left. There is still a tradition that Petrarch visited this place in order to obtain from Lapo Senior some Latin texts.


But though Guarini was apparently the first man to translate and to bring back from the East Lucian's Calumny, and therefore the most important of the early humanists in connection with our particular study, he was by
no means the only humanist who made literary use of Lucian's Dialogue. Forster, in his two studies, 17 mentioned several others, whom I must now examine in order to establish two points; first: which among them by im-
portation or translation actually helped to diffuse Lucian's Dialogue On Calumny; secondly the date at which such
diffusion began.

After Guarini, the humanists of the XVth cen-tury enumerated by Forster are: Aurispa, Lapo, Birago da Castiglionchio, Filelfo, Accolti, Bartolom-meo della Fonte, Poggio, Kinuccio da Castiglione,
Bordo.
I will consider each of these very briefly, because we must remember that once an important text had become
known in a circle of fervent scholars such as the one that centered around the Studio Fiorentino, it was likely to
spread in an ever increasing number of copies and versions ; and secondly because, as we shall see, as the dates
of the versions subsequent to Guarini's advance toward the end of the Quattrocento, they lose in importance in
relation to our particular quest.


Lapo da Castiglionchio should by no means be con-fused, as was apparently done by Forster, with a certain
Lapo or Lappo or Lampo (Lampugnino) Birago, nor with Lapo da Castiglionchio Senior. The latter, who died in
1391, was one of the very earliest Florentine humanists, and a friend of Petrarch, to whom he gave, in 1350, four
Orations of Cicero and the Instilutio Oratorio, of Quin-tilian. 21 This Lapo could not possibly have been ac-
quainted with Lucian's works, not even had they, as has been proved to be untrue, been imported by Guarini on
a trip taken to Constantinople with Chrysoloras' firstreturn East in 1397, that is to say, six years after Lapo's
death.
The grandson, however, of this Lapo is the biblio-phile with whom we are concerned. He is Lapo da Cas-
tiglionchio Junior (1405-1438), who translated several of Lucian's writings, and among them the Dialogue On Cal-
umny. This was done, according to the dates given by Forster, possibly before 1435, and according to Luiso, be-
tween 1436 and 1438, the latter being the year of Lapo Junior's death. Luiso in establishing this date also notes
that this Lucianic opusculum had already been translated by Guarini. Lapo achieved, during the last years of
his life, a remarkable reputation for accuracy and elegance in translation. This fact, coupled with the growing
importance in which Lucian was held in the Quattrocento, explains the number of manuscript copies of Lapo's translation. Among these may doubtless be counted the copy examined by Forster himself from the Hamilton-Berlin codices.
http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

#413
SteveM wrote: Another person who used the motto, albeit in French (but nonetheless which shows it was known pre-Isabelle), was Charles II, Duke of Bourbon (1434 - 1488), who had an emblem of a flaming sword with the motto N’espoir ny peur (neither hope nor fear).
Image


It is also to be found on a 15th century tapestry in the Cathedral of Sens showing the adoration of the magi:

https://books.google.com.tr/books?id=e- ... ir&f=false
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

#415
BOUGEAREL Alain wrote: Or if I m wrong, can someone explain me this old post of Ross :
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.ph ... 552&page=6

Apparently John Shephard once argued that the card [with nec spe nec metu] was actually the World!

He also apparently found connections between the Este and Colleoni families (the shield is Bartolomeo Colleoni - 1400-1475).

"Shephard maintains that the pack from which these four cards come was a baptismal gift. The father of Isabella, Ercole d'Este, duke of Ferrara, was the uncle of Niccolò da Correggio, whose wife was Cassandra, daughter of the famous condottiero Bartolomeo Colleoni (1400-1476). In 1492, at the baptism of Isotta, daughter of Niccolò and Cassandra, the marquis Francesco II Gonzaga, husband of Isabella, held the baby in his arms at the baptismal font. Shephard believes that this occasion is the reason for which these cards were made."
(Dummett, Il Mondo e l'Angelo (1993), p. 60. (my translation))
See Shephard's original at ...
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=691&p=17805#p17805
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

#416
SteveM wrote:
Huck wrote: ... .-) ... if Colleoni had this motto and it was a matter of some relevance, then either Isabella would have known it, or she would have been told that Colleoni had already used it.
The motto was a commonplace. The originallity or invention was not in its usage, but the context.

To suggest that Isabelle, who in her early teens mastered both greek and latin, was not aware of this, is bizarre. See above about renaissance ideas re 'inventione'.

Another person who used the motto, albeit in French (but nonetheless which shows it was known pre-Isabelle), was Charles II, Duke of Bourbon (1434 - 1488), who had an emblem of a flaming sword with the motto N’espoir ny peur (neither hope nor fear).
Hm. If the "motto" was a commonplace as a motto, then show me the evidence.
I easily agree, that "nec spe, nec metu" might have been a commonplace in usual language "without special dominance (either motto, proverb or toast) .

After Isabella d'Este in 1504 there are enough known examples of the use of "nec spe, nec metu" as a motto, possibly far spread just cause of the use of the motto by a very prominent lady (Isabella). As far I know, the earlier existence as a motto is disputed.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

#417
SteveM wrote:
SteveM wrote: Another person who used the motto, albeit in French (but nonetheless which shows it was known pre-Isabelle), was Charles II, Duke of Bourbon (1434 - 1488), who had an emblem of a flaming sword with the motto N’espoir ny peur (neither hope nor fear).
Image


Hi Steve

Good find.
It is Charles II de Bourbon "motto".
He is a very interesting figure because of his link both to Louis XI and Charles VIII and his relations with Burgondy.


Should be circa 1466 and before 1480.

Though nominated in 1444, the Archeveché de Lyon wasn't administrated by him until 1466.
À la mort de l'archevêque Amédée de Talaru, les chanoines du chapitre cathédral tentent d'imposer au pape et au roi de France leur candidat : Jean de Bourbon. Mais le pape Eugène IV tarde à envoyer la confirmation et Jean renonce de lui-même au poste en proposant Charles de Bourbon son neveu. Le chapitre l'élit alors le 6 juin 1444 à l'âge de 11 ans. Mais le pape casse l'élection, au mépris de la pragmatique sanction, et impose Geoffroy de Vassali, alors archevêque de Viennea . Ce dernier ne prend jamais possession de l'archevêché. En effet, la famille de Bourbon négocie avec lui et il renonce à son titre en octobre 1445. Le roi et le pape acceptent alors la candidature de Charles de Bourbon .
Régence du diocèse
L'archevêché est administré pendant sa minorité par Jean Rollin, évêque d'Autun, de 1446 à 1447, puis par Jean Du Gué, évêque d'Orléans, de 1447 à 1449, et Jean de Bourbon, évêque du Puy, de 1449 à 1466.


https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_II_de_Bourbon

Linked to the identification Dauphin Delphin with the Dauphin of France, futur Louis XI
The anti Pope : Louis Ier de Savoie : https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Ier_de_Savoie

Very closely linked to Louis XIn he is also sent to the pope Paul II in 1466
Après le conflit de la ligue du Bien public, Louis XI l'envoie en 1466 auprès du pape Paul II
He negociates for Burgundy once more
En 1468, Charles de Bourbon est à Péronne pour négocier la libération du roi auprès de Charles le Téméraire. Il est en effet, un parent de ce dernier par sa mère
The same Pope that will give in 1469 the autorisation of mariage for Charles VIII and Marie de Bourgogne

En 1469, il accorde une dispense pour permettre le mariage entre Charles de France, fils de Charles VII de France et frère de Louis XI, et Marie de Bourgogne en raison de leur lien de parenté.
http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

#418
Huck wrote: Hm. If the "motto" was a commonplace as a motto, then show me the evidence.
I easily agree, that "nec spe, nec metu" might have been a commonplace in usual language "without special dominance (either motto, proverb or toast) .
It was commonplace as a piece of stoic philosophy. As a motto there is Charles de Bourbon; also Campbell's source for stating that it was a motto of Colleoni still needs to be clarified, and either shown to be correct or false.*

Opposite the Motto in Isabella's studiolo, and often being described as being paired with it, is another of her impressa, the number XXVIII, which is a pun for vinti i saeti, 'overcome the arrows' (the arrows of fortune, or as in Boaido's poem, the arrows of cupiditas/desire?), another piece of Stoic sentiment which is taken from Seneca.

SteveM
*The simplest way would be to just simply email him and ask him, I have his email (it is available on the net he is Professor at the John Hopkins - Krieger School of Arts and Sciences) but I don't have access to any of my own email accounts since my computer went dead, otherwise I would do so myself.
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

#419
[quote="SteveM"]]

Opposite the Motto in Isabella's studiolo, and often being described as being paired with it, is another of her impressa, the number XXVIII, which is a pun for vinti i saeti, 'overcome the arrows' (the arrows of fortune, or as in Boaido's poem, the arrows of cupiditas/desire?), another piece of Stoic sentiment which is taken from Seneca.

Good observation


The "arrow", not a "lance" do I see , in the middle the Fountain of "Blood" ....World Ace of Cups...

"Divine" Love poured for salvation (Lance) or Fortuna or Cupidon as an stoic invocation to overcome deception or separation = tears of blood (Arrow)?

There is clearly a duality in the card : left and right.
The Arrow direction upwards is in the middle as a Justice balance : the" right" stoical attitude to adopt ...
Image
http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie

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