Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

#622
Yes, I can get it easily. According to the online catalog, it's at a library where I have borrowing privileges, around 45 minutes from me. I don't get there often, but I happen to have an errand to do near there tomorrow. I don't doubt that it has much specific, detailed information about both him and Lazzarelli, but not, of course, anything discovered since 1956.

I am not sure what you are looking for. For a general, up to date introduction to Correggio, the best source is the book I already have checked out, by Hanegraaff. There are 22 pages on Correggio's career, plus Trithemius's account.

About both of these, I will be contact you by email.

Online by Kristeller there is also, in vol. 3, written in Italian:
https://books.google.com/books?id=k--XB ... io&f=false

Getting the missing pages of that one might be difficult.

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

#623
mikeh wrote:
07 May 2018, 05:46
Yes, I can get it easily. According to the online catalog, it's at a library where I have borrowing privileges, around 45 minutes from me. I don't get there often, but I happen to have an errand to do near there tomorrow. I don't doubt that it has much specific, detailed information about both him and Lazzarelli, but not, of course, anything discovered since 1956.

I am not sure what you are looking for. For a general, up to date introduction to Correggio, the best source is the book I already have checked out, by Hanegraaff. There are 22 pages on Correggio's career, plus Trithemius's account.

About both of these, I will be contact you by email.

Online by Kristeller there is also, in vol. 3, written in Italian:
https://books.google.com/books?id=k--XB ... io&f=false

Getting the missing pages of that one might be difficult.
Thanks Mikeh
Web page : http://letarot.it/page.aspx?id=23&lng=eng

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - GOSSELIN 1582

#624
Gosselin 1582 La Signification de l'ancien jeu des chartes pythagorique(s)

Image
1582 Gosselin Jean: "La signification de l 'ancien jeu des chartes pythagoriques..."


Une référence à l' Antique ...
La plus ancienne référence française connue d' une lecture pythagoricienne du Jeu de cartes ordinaires?

Contenu : mises à jour en date du 8 juillet 2018
Lien web : https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aK0 ... sp=sharing

Extrait :

CONCLUSION
A mon sens, cet opuscule de Jean Gosselin ne fut pas apprécié à sa juste valeur.
L’ oeuvre qui s’inscrit à la suite du renouveau des idées pythoriciennes et platoniciennes en France, possède bel et bien un cadre pythagoricien et sa symbolique des 4 Couleurs relèverait de la hiérarchie platonicienne des 4 Eléments.
De plus, l’expression spécifique “jeu pythagorique” semble en droite ligne issue du (Le) très excellent et ancien jeu pythagorique dict Rythmomachie de Claude de Boissière publié en 1556 : https://books.google.fr/books?id=F15s3q ... &q&f=false
L on se souviendra par ailleurs que :
- l’usage de proportions pythagoriciennes des nombres permettant une stratégie gagnante relevait de la tradition des “jeux des philosophes” : Anne E. MOYER, The Philosophers' Game, Rithmomachia in Renaissance and Medieval Europe, University of Michigan Press, 2001
- l’érudit Lefèvre D’ Etaples avait écrit (1496. 1514) la Rithmimachiae ludus qui et pugna numerorum appellatur

La question au demeurant serait la suivante : savoir si oui ou non, ce Bibliothécaire du Roi, lettré, a eu accès à des textes platoniciens, aristotéliciens et pythagoriciens ... et si oui, lesquels?
Gosselin ne revendiquait-il pas comme sources de son inspiration : Platon, Aristote et “quelques philosophes pythagoriens”?
Une chose est certaine .
Quelque part, son jeu des chartes pythagoriques est consécutif au renouveau du Pythagorisme en France ; citons Trithème, Reuchlin, Lefevre d Etables, Champier, Bouelles, Bude, Amy, Lefebvre de la Beauderie...
Le seul Lefèvre d'Etaples publia et commenta :
- l'Arithmétique de Boèce (1503, 1510, 1522), - celle de Nemorarius (1514) - De cubitione spherae, De quadratura circuli (1503)
A propos de ceux qui propageaient les idées platoniciennes en France à partir de Marcile Ficin, je soulignerais les figures de D’Etaples et de son disciple Champier :
1483 D'Etaples est a Florence y rencontre Ficin et Pic de la Mirandole et decide de traduire le Pimandre : Mercurii Trismegisti liber de potestate et sapientia Dei
Lazarelli de Septempedano converti à la religion chrétienne en lisant les écrits d'Hermes, compose le Crater Hermetis qui sera intégré au Corpus Hermeticum publié par D'Etaples en le 1 avril 1505 chez H Etienne
D Etaples joint donc le dialogue de Lazarelli à la traduction du Pimandre par Ficin et à celle de l 'Asclepius par le Pseudo Apulée.
Les 2 grandes oeuvres d 'Hermes Trismegiste y sont réunies dans un seul ouvrage, avec un commentaire par chapitre
Michael Howard note, à bon escient, entre autres indications à ce sujet, quant aux connections entre Lazarelli et Champier, que l intermédiaire fut, selon le Pr Hannegraff, un certain “Mercurio” que Lazarelli rencontra à Rome en 1481.
Champier publia en 1507 les Definitiones Asclepiii traduites par Lazarelli. inconnues de D’ Etaples.
En 1508 , une Theologia Trismegista
Comment découvrit-il ces textes alors que Lazarelli était décédé en 1500?
Selon K Ohly, le maître de Lazarelli, Jean Mercure de Corregio se rendit en France pour ce faire.
(Cf Michael Howard : viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1102&start=610#p20122)

A suivre ...

Sources :
Wouter J. Hanegraaff, Ruud M. Bouthoornn, Lodovico Lazzarelli (1447-1500): The Hermetic Writings and Related Documents, Volume 281 de Medieval & Renaissance Texts & Studies Éditeur Arizona Center for Medieval and Renaissance Studies, 2005 Original provenant de l'Université du Michigan 2005 Numérisé 2 oct. 2008 ISBN 0866983244, 9780866983242

P. O. Kristeller, Studies in Renaissance Thought and Letters, Rome, 1956
Web page : http://letarot.it/page.aspx?id=23&lng=eng

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

#626
Here is a translation of the above, for those who might want to critique Alain's summary. I have corrected some of the spellings of non-French names, and I assume that Alain's "Etables" was a typographical error for "Etaples". The word "Septempedano" is a Latinized nickname meaning "of San Severino".

My main difficulty was with the word "jeu". Perhaps this has been discussed before, but if so I have forgotten. In French "jeu" has two quite different English equivalents, "deck" (or "pack")--a set of physical objects, ordinarily 52 cards - and "game", the type of amusement for which the deck is used. So I am not sure whether, in its first three occurrences below, the word "jeu" should be translated as "deck" or as "game". I would assume that when Alain says "La plus ancienne référence française connue d' une lecture pythagoricienne du Jeu de cartes ordinaires?" he means "The oldest known French reference to a Pythagorean reading of the deck of cards"; but in "Le très excellent et ancien jeu pythagorique dict Rythmomachie it seems to mean "game". Please advise, Alain.

And one other question: in what sense was Lazzarelli converted to Christianity by reading the works of Hermes, i.e. the Corpus Hermeticum? Surely he was already a Christian.

Here is my translation. Comments in brackets are mine:

Gosselin 1582 La Signification de l'ancien jeu des chartes pythagorique(s) (The meaning of the ancient Pythagorean game [or deck] of cards

Image
1582 Gosselin Jean: "The meaning of the ancient Pythagorean game [or deck] of cards ..."


A reference to the Antique ...
The oldest known French reference to a Pythagorean reading of the ordinary game [or deck] of cards?

Content: Updated July 8, 2018
Web Link: [url] https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aK0 ... sp=sharing [/ url]

CONCLUSION
In my opinion, this pamphlet of Jean Gosselin was not appreciated at its fair value.
The work, which follows the revival of Pythagorean and Platonic ideas in France, does indeed have a Pythagorean framework and its symbolism of the four suits is to be found in the Platonic hierarchy of the four elements.
In addition, the specific expression "“jeu pythagorique” ["Pythagorean game" (or deck)] seems to be straight from Le très excellent et ancien jeu pythagorique dict Rythmomachie [The very excellent and old Pythagorean game called Rhythmomachy] by Claude de Boissière, published in 1556: https://books.google.fr/books?id=F15s3q ... &q&f=false
It will be remembered moreover that:
- The use of Pythagorean proportions of numbers for a winning strategy was part of the tradition of "games of the philosophers": Anne E. MOYER, The Philosophers' Game, Rithmomachia in Renaissance and Medieval Europe, University of Michigan Press, 2001
- the scholar Lefevre D'Etaples wrote (1496. 1514) the Rithmimachiae ludus qui et pugna numerorum appellatur

The question, when all is said and done, would be the following: whether or not this lettered [i.e. literate in classical languages] Librarian of the King had access to Platonic, Aristotelian and Pythagorean texts ... and if so, which ones?
Did not Gosselin claim as sources of his inspiration: Plato, Aristotle and "some Pythagorean philosophers"?
One thing is certain .
Somehow, his Pythagorean card game is a result of the revival of Pythagoreanism in France.
We may cite Trithemius, Reuchlin, Lefèvre d'Etaples, Champier, Bouelles, Bude, Amy, Lefebvre de la Beauderie ...
Lefèvre d'Etaples alone published, with comments:
- l'Arithmétique de Boèce [The Arithmetic of Boethius] (1503, 1510, 1522), - that of Nemorarius (1514) - De cubitione spherae, De quadratura circuli (1503)
About those who propagated in France the Platonic ideas of Marsilio Ficino, I would highlight the figures of D'Etaples and his disciple Champier:
In 1483 D'Etaples is in Florence, meets Ficino and Pico della Mirandola and decides to translate the Pimander: Mercurii Trismegisti liber de potestate et sapientia Dei
Lazarelli Septempedano, converted to the Christian religion by reading the writings of Hermes, composes the Crater Hermetis, which will be integrated with the Corpus Hermeticum published by D'Etaples on April 1, 1505 at the [publishing] house of H Etienne.
D'Etaples therefore joins Lazzarelli's dialogue to the translation of the Pimander by Ficino and that of the Asclepius by pseudo-Apuleius.
The two great works of Hermes Trismegistus are reunited in one book, with commentary by chapter.
Michael Howard notes, to good effect, among other indications on this subject, the connections between Lazzarelli and Champier, that the intermediary was, according to Pr Hanegraaff, a certain "Mercurio" who Lazzarelli met in Rome in 1481.
Champier published in 1507 the Definitiones Asclepiii translated by Lazzarelli. unknown to D'Etaples.
In 1508, a Theologia Trismegista
How did he discover these texts when Lazzarelli died in 1500?
According to K Ohly, Lazzarelli's master Giovanni Mercurio da Correggio went to France to do this. (See Michael Howard: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1102&start=610#p20122)

To be continued ...

Sources:
Wouter J. Hanegraaff, Ruud M. Bouthoorn, Lodovico Lazzarelli (1447-1500): The Hermetic Writings and Related Documents, Volume 281 of Medieval & Renaissance Texts & Studies, Arizona Center for Medieval and Renaissance Studies, [Temple, Arizona,] 2005. Original from the University of Michigan 2005 Digitalized Oct. 2, 2008, ISBN 0866983244, 9780866983242

P. O. Kristeller, Studies in Renaissance Thought and Letters, Rome, 1956.

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

#628
A point of traduction

"Opuscule "can well be translate in English as you did "pamphet".
https://dictionnaire.reverso.net/franca ... s/opuscule

But in French, the word "pamphet" is more polemic; againwt something or someone :
Le pamphlet est une œuvre littéraire dont le but est de contester un pouvoir ou un homme de pouvoir sur le mode de la dénonciation, de la caricature, du dénigrement, de la raillerie, dans un style souvent vindicatif. Ce peut être un article de journal ou de revue, un discours, un poème, une nouvelle, un roman, des mémoires apocryphes, voire un film, etc.
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pamphlet
Web page : http://letarot.it/page.aspx?id=23&lng=eng

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

#629
Jeu de cartes = deck or game?
both!

You wrote quite correctly :
My main difficulty was with the word "jeu". Perhaps this has been discussed before, but if so I have forgotten. In French "jeu" has two quite different English equivalents, "deck" (or "pack")--a set of physical objects, ordinarily 52 cards - and "game", the type of amusement for which the deck is used. So I am not sure whether, in its first three occurrences below, the word "jeu" should be translated as "deck" or as "game". I would assume that when Alain says "La plus ancienne référence française connue d' une lecture pythagoricienne du Jeu de cartes ordinaires?" he means "The oldest known French reference to a Pythagorean reading of the deck of cards"; but in "Le très excellent et ancien jeu pythagorique dict Rythmomachie it seems to mean "game". Please advise, Alain.

Well, in the case here, I have a prefrenec for "game' cbacause of the same expression in Le très excellent et ancien jeu pythagorique dict Rythmomachie
Web page : http://letarot.it/page.aspx?id=23&lng=eng

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

#630
Jeu de cartes = deck or game?
both!

You wrote quite correctly :
My main difficulty was with the word "jeu". Perhaps this has been discussed before, but if so I have forgotten. In French "jeu" has two quite different English equivalents, "deck" (or "pack")--a set of physical objects, ordinarily 52 cards - and "game", the type of amusement for which the deck is used. So I am not sure whether, in its first three occurrences below, the word "jeu" should be translated as "deck" or as "game". I would assume that when Alain says "La plus ancienne référence française connue d' une lecture pythagoricienne du Jeu de cartes ordinaires?" he means "The oldest known French reference to a Pythagorean reading of the deck of cards"; but in "Le très excellent et ancien jeu pythagorique dict Rythmomachie it seems to mean "game". Please advise, Alain.

Well, in the case here, I have a preference for "game' because of the same expression in Le très excellent et ancien jeu pythagorique dict Rythmomachie
Web page : http://letarot.it/page.aspx?id=23&lng=eng

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