Re: The Pope with the donkey / "Oldest Tarot"

#21
Ha ...

I overlooked this

star picture Corvus (Raven)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corvus_%28constellation%29
... near to Virgo, as in the divination book (between Leo and Virgo)

... :-) ... and I overlooked this
The Draco is the Camel
There are a number of myths behind the constellation Draco, due to its resemblance to a dragon, although alternative interpretations exist, such as the legend of the Mother Camels, the name given by ancient Arabic nomadic tribes to an asterism in the constellation of Draco. Instead of the head of a dragon, the asterism is interpreted as a ring of mother camels surrounding a baby camel (the faint star in the middle), with another mother camel running to join them. The camels were seen to be protecting the baby from a line of charging hyenas.

In the most famous of the myths, Draco represents Ladon, the hundred-eyed dragon that guarded the golden apples of the Hesperides.

The eleventh of The Twelve Labours of Heracles was to steal the golden apples. Heracles killed Ladon with a poisoned arrow, allowing him to freely take the golden apples. According to the legend, Hera later placed the dragon in the sky as the constellation Draco. Due to its position and nearby constellations in the zodiac sign of Libra (i.e. Ursa Major, Ursa Minor, and Bootes), the group of constellations can be seen to tell the tale of the eleventh labour.

In another legend, Draco represents the dragon killed by Cadmus before founding the city of Thebes, Greece. In a third legend, it represents the dragon that guarded the Golden Fleece and was killed by Jason. The fact that the stars of this circumpolar constellation never set plays an important part in its mythologies.

There are many myths behind Draco, due to its resemblence to a dragon. Dragon symbology represents human DNA.
http://www.crystalinks.com/draco.html

The terms Dragonhead and Dragontail got some big attention in the Geomancy.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: The Pope with the donkey / "Oldest Tarot"

#23
Some definite success with the lot book ... a part of the astrological part is part of the astrology of the Babylonians ... so apparently "old".

Babylonian astrology is naturally rather complicated, there is - according Bodo, a friend, who belongs to a group
of rare specialists in very old languages - a constantly growing number of texts, but only a small number of readers. Unluckily Bodo has not much to say about astrology, it's not his topic, but Bodo declares his astonishment about the results of some colleagues and fairly declares his not-competence (... :-) ... he has usually a lot of very detailed opinions) ... so I've also no trouble to declare my incompetence myself. The general development has suffered by the not stable political situations in Irak.

I've found notes at astrological sites (and books), that Babylonian texts contain 13 zodiac-sign for a lunar calendar, 12 being the normal, as we do know them, the 13th being the crow or raven ... as in the observed lot book. The references are not well developed at this sites and books, however, it might be correct from my own considerations - correct for a specific time, probably not too early.

I found a text (Cuneiform script), which according to the reporting author was written in 177/178 BCE, so in a time, when Greek and Babylonian ideas of the world has already mixed, thanks to the energetic operations of Alexander.

http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/pr ... _33_1_5177

The text - according the author - presents a lot book. Inside the text, as the author understands it, the 12 common zodiac signs and 5 birds (Crow and eagle as in the renaissance lot book, a swallow, which is NOT in the renaissance lot book, one bird is not readable cause of missing text and a 5th bird, who is only given with Babylonic name, likely not positive identified) are assumed to form a system, according which the lot book results are reached. The situation of this Cuneiform script is so, that the modern author fights for an understanding ... he isn't sure about the correct meaning.
However, having analyzed the renaissance lot book, one detects some similarities between both systems

a. it's a lot book in both cases
b. there's a use of 5 birds and the use the common zodiac in both systems

The text was found in Borsippa
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borsippa

***************

This article offers some general information about the change of the 8-years-calendar to the 19-years calendar:
Die Babylonier verwendeten einen Lunisolar-Kalender. Ein babylonischer Monat begann, wenn am Abend die dünne Mondsichel zum ersten mal sichtbar wurde. Daher hatte jeder Monat entweder 29 oder 30 Tage, ein Tag dauerte von einem Sonnenuntergang bis zum nächsten. Wenn die Mondsichel nach 30 Tagen noch immer nicht sichtbar war (wegen Wolken), dann begann der neue Monat trotzdem. Das Jahr fing immer mit dem Beginn eines neuen Monats im Frühling an. Viele Texte, wie z.B. auch mulAPIN, verwenden einen idealen Kalender mit 12 Monaten à 30 Tagen in einem Jahr. Da das Sonnenjahr etwa 11 Tage länger ist als 12 Mondmonate, haben die Babylonier etwa alle drei Jahre ein Schaltmonat eingefügt. Am Beginn konnte es zu jeder Jahreszeit eingefügt werden, aber in der Spätbabylonischen Periode wurde es nur mehr entweder nach dem 6. oder dem 12. Monat eingefügt. In den Texten werden sie als zweiter Ululu oder zweiter Adaru bezeichnet. Vor dem 6.Jh.v.Chr. wurden sie eingefügt wann immer es notwendig war. Ab 527 v.Chr. wurde jedoch ein 8-jähriger Zyklus benutzt, der 503 v.Chr. durch einen 19-jährigen Zyklus ersetzt wurde. Der 19-jährige Schaltzyklus wurde in den astronomischen Keilschrifttexten bis zum Jahre 75 n.Chr. beibehalten . Im 8-jährigen Zyklus gibt es drei Schaltjahre, nämlich ein Ululu-Jahr und zwei Adaru-Jahre (- U - A - - A -). Im 19-jährigen Zyklus gibt es 7 Schaltjahre, ein Ululu-Jahr und sechs Adaru-Jahre (- - A - - A - A - - A - - A - - U - A).

http://www.gautschy.ch/~rita/archast/babylon.html

The article states, that since 527 BCE an 8-years calendar was used, which was replaced in 503 BCE. According the article: The 19-years-calendar was used till 75 AD.
ALSO it's said, that the additional 13th month appeared after the 6th month or the 12 month (in the later period) ... so after the end of the year, or in the mid of it.

According this: The 13 zodiac signs (with crow or raven) might have had a function between 503 BCE - 75 AD ... however, there are opinions, that the 19-years-cycle was older. According the Western opinion Meton introduced the 19-years-cycle 432 BCE in Athen.

For Macedonia, which since Philip and his son Alexander got a tremendous meaning, we have this English Wikipedia-report:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Ma ... n_calendar

The German Wikipedia-article knows more details:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makedonischer_Kalender
In this article it's shown, that variants of the Macedonian calendar existed at different locations, and that the Syrian 19-years-calendar existed longer than other versions.

This report to the Byzantine calendar ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_calendar
... tells about a calendar-reform in 691AD.
In this year the begin of the year was moved from 25th of March to 1st of September, and this decision became rather influential for the Byzantine world and its consequences endured long time. As cause are given complex theological reasons.
It's interesting, cause ...

a. The renaissance lot book indicates for the crow a time between Leo and Virgo, so somehow near to 1st of September
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_calendar

b. The Macedonian-Babylonian calendar knew a begin in spring (Greek-Babilonian calendar) and another in autumn (Greek-Makedonian Calendar). The begin of the year 312 BCE was so calculated with 6th of October according the Julian Calendar and with 1st of October according the Gregor calendar. If the year before 312 had had an additional month (the suspected crow-month), than it would have been likely taken place in September 312.

c. The crow or raven is a known star picture (already earlier known in Babylonian astronomy) and it's location is near to the zodiac sign Virgo. In some Greek myths Virgo is connected to the "heaven at night" with all his stars - so for instance to Aristaea, the daughter of Aristaios (son of Krius, who is one of the Titans).
In Greek mythology, Astraeus or Astraeos (Ancient Greek: Ἀστραῖος) was an astrological deity and the Titan-god of the dusk. His original Greek name, Astraios (Ἀστραῖος), translates as "dawn of the stars" (astra- meaning "stars"; the -eos portion meaning "dawn"), the time when the stars come out, or simply dusk. In Hesiod's Theogony and in the Bibliotheca, Astraeus is a second-generation Titan, descended from Crius and Eurybia. However, Hyginus wrote that he was descended directly from Tartarus and Gaia, and referred to him as one of the Gigantes. Appropriately, as god of the dusk, Astraeus married Eos, goddess of the dawn. Together as nightfall and daybreak they produced many children who are associated with what occurs in the sky during twilight. They had many sons, the four Anemoi ("Winds"): Boreas, Notus, Eurus, and Zephyrus, and the five Astra Planeta ("Wandering Stars", i.e. planets): Phainon (Saturn), Phaethon (Jupiter), Pyroeis (Mars), Eosphoros/Hesperos (Venus), and Stilbon (Mercury).[3] A few sources mention one daughter, Astraea ("stars", fem. personification. Sometimes: "justice"), but most writers considered Astraea the child of Zeus and Themis. He is sometimes associated with Aeolus, the Keeper of the Winds, since winds often swell up around dusk.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astraios
See also Astraea: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astraea_%28mythology%29

d. In spite of all theological reasons to change the date, there's simply the condition, that the Byzantine Empire had in 691 foes in the regions of Babylon (the region, which started the spring begin of the year, the foe of this time is simply the rather dangerous power of the new Islamic interpretation), and had its own position in Greece, which traditionally started in autumn. So the new decision for a begin of the year in September is just a "step back to the own roots", ignoring foreign influence.

*************

For the Arabic Calendar we have, that the 19-years-calendar wasn't used ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_calendar
... they found themselves content with a lunar calendar, which counted the year with 354 days, which with you have in c. 33 years (our Western calculation) 34 years (Islamic calculation).

Generally it seems, that the old Egyptian solution (having 12x30 days and 5 "unlucky additional days") and 19-years-solution (having in 19 years 7 "unlucky crow-monthes") found in Islam the very orthodox solution of a version, which didn't know "unlucky days" ... just taking with patience the fact, that annual dates of the calendar wandered through the solar year.

So there's the question, who brought the crow-months-version of astrology into the observed renaissance lot book.

Well, and there's the Jewish calendar. They used the 19-years-cycle ... and it's still of some relevance in modern times.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_calendar

In the article to the Macedonian calendar, the Syrian 19-years-cycle version is claimed to have had the longest duration .. unluckily without referring to details, "how long". Still the Syrian calendar is described to use month names with similarity to the Hebrew names. The whole is called "Semitic calendar".

The Jewish population suffered after the Romans conquered Jerusalem 70 AD. Further trouble was caused by the Bar Kokhba revolt (132-136 AD). Jewish culture produced a Jerusalem Talmud and a following Babylonian Talmud ... many Jews took refuge in Babylon after the Roman aggression, opportunity enough to take some influences of Babylonian concepts.

**********************

The way between a Babylonian lot book of 177/178 BCE to a renaissance lot book of ca. 1450 is a rather long -distance-run (more than 1600 years, whow), but naturally "not impossible". The most basic parts for modern astrology we find from 2nd century BC till 100 AD for the first time- just then, when astrology became popular in Rome.
A lot of the Roman history survived only at its borders ... that's a common-place of Western history, nothing
very special. A lot survived from Arabian and Jewish sources. Jews transferred these ideas via Spain. In Spain - in a relevant time, 1255 - King Alfonso X reigned and wished to become German emperor. There were a lot of Jewish population in Spain, partly with a lot of enthusiasm for historical matters and also with enthusiasm about esoterical concepts ... like for instance also astrologies.

As already mentioned: Alfonso had not only the additional name "the wise", but also the name "the astrolog". The are for instance the Alfonsine Tables:
A series of astronomical tables giving the exact hours for the rising of the planets and fixed stars; compiled at Toledo at the request of Alfonso X. of Castile about the year 1252, the date given in the Latin editions being the year 1251. They are of considerable importance to the history of astronomy and even to that of geographical discovery, since it was by trusting to a revision of them by Abraham Zacuto that Columbus was enabled to reach the New World. According to Zacuto, the chief compiler of the tables was Isaac ibn Sid, a ḥazan or cantor of the city of Toledo; and astronomical observations of his, dating from the years 1263-66, were seen by Isaac Israeli. In what language the original tables were compiled is doubtful. The Latin portion refers to Jews in uncomplimentary terms; and it is therefore not likely to be the work of Ibn Sid, who is, besides, known as a translator from Arabic into Spanish of other astronomical works. The tables were supposed by Humboldt in his "Cosmos" to have been compiled at a congress of Christian, Jewish, and Mohammedan astronomers, especially assembled for that purpose by Alfonso. This myth has been exploded by Steinschneider, who traced the tradition to Zacuto. Strange to say, the Alfonsine Tables proper were for the first time translated from the Latin into Hebrew by Moses ben Abraham of Nîmes, at Avignon, as late as 1460; though this translation was of little consequence to the history of science. There are, besides, several Hebrew manuscripts containing commentaries and explanations for the use of the Alfonsine Tables, giving the canons or ruling principles on which they were compiled.

The Alfonsine Tables must not be confounded with earlier astronomical tables composed at Toledo between 1061 and 1080 by Abu IsḥaḲ ibn Al-Zarkali of Cordova, which were translated into Spanish at the request of Alfonso X. by Don Abraham Faquin about 1277.
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. ... %20castile
Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfonsine_tables

So there was possibly even a sort of congress, in 1252 ...
As we have for Alfonso, that he couldn't hope before 1255 on the possibility of a personal succession at the emperor throne, it seems natural, that he would have used something astronomical or astrological to impress German with his personal qualities. Why not a lot book, as he also had some proven interest in games generally?

Toledo was taken from the Moors ... "On May 25, 1085, Alfonso VI of Castile took Toledo and established direct personal control over the Moorish city from which he had been exacting tribute, ending the medieval Taifa's Kingdom of Toledo."
Jews had to suffer some persecution during 12th century. Things became splendid for them under Alfonsi X.
School of Translators Under Alfonso X.
Under Alfonso X., the Wise, Toledo rose in importance as a center of Jewish activity in translation from the Arabic into Hebrew, and less often into Latin and Spanish. Similar activity had occurred previously; but the Jewish translators either were not born in Toledo (as Johannes Hispanensis, who only settled there, and Samuel ibn Tibbon) or flourished mainly elsewhere (as Judah ben Solomon ha-Kohen ibn Matḳah, who was born in Toledo, but passed the greater part of his life in Italy). However this may be, the number of Jewish translators increased under the patronage of the king. Don Zag ibn Sid was the chief compiler of the Alfonsine Tables; and Judah Moses Cohen also translated works on astronomy from Arabic into Spanish, as did Abraham of Toledo and Samuel ha-Levi Abulafia. In medicine Abraham Alfaquin was active, as were also Ḥayyim Israel and Judah Cohen. Todros ha-Levi was another translator of the same period and the same place. It is probable also that the Spanish translation of "Kalilah wa-Dimnah" was executed at Toledo about this time. It was likewise at this period (1260) that the Jews of Toledo obtained permission from Alfonso to build the largest and most beautiful synagogue in Spain, though a bull of Innocent IV. expressly forbade the erection of any new synagogue, especially any building higher than or in any way superior to the surrounding churches or houses. ...
The favorable condition of the Jews of Toledo during Alfonso's reign is indicated by the large proportion of the poll-tax for Castile paid by them in 1290—namely, 1,062,902 maravedis out of the total of 2,594,014, the amount of their "servicio" not being given for that year. In addition to this payment, they had to pay tribute to the archbishop in the following year (1291; Jacobs, l.c. No. 1282); and there are occasional indications of friction between the royal officers and the episcopal dignitaries as to the exact limitation of their taxation rights over the Jews.
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. ... rch=toledo

Political situation of 1210:
Image


Jewish Kabbala developed in Southern France and Gerona (North-East of Spain). It's a question, if we have one of the known kabbalists already active in Toledo around 1250. I took a look, but couldn't identify one.

(btw. ... interesting, that at this map at least part of the Cathar region is given to the Catalan counties ... as if the military engagement of the Albigensian crusaders aimed against the Catalan Counties as a whole and their raising political independence)
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: The Pope with the donkey / "Oldest Tarot"

#24
The "donkey", which are "asses":

Image


Image


The two light stars which make the zodiac sign "Cancer" are Asellus Borealis und Asellus Australis ... a lot of smaller stars, not distinguishable for human eyes without telescop are called "Praesepe" (the manger).

According mythology the both asses carried the god Dionysos through a river (somewhere during his Asia-journey). The god send them to heaven, where they have enough to eat beside the manger.

Image
8039. MACEDON, MENDE, 465-424 BC. AR Tetrobol, Sear 1410. Dionysos, naked, stg. r. behind ass r., which he holds by the ears./MENDAION around crow stg. r., all within incuse square. F+. Very rare!
http://edgarlowen.com/greek-coins-greece.shtml

465-424, that's very early and before Alexander took his great journey ... if this was already an astrological combination of crow and ass, this would be astonishing.

Another view of the stars:
Image


As far I know it, the zodiac-sign Cancer is generally related to clerics - in this case the donkey-ass is connected to pope.

*********************
As Jews had been surviving with 19-years-calendar, it seems logical to request the connections between Jews and asses:

Jewish encyclopedia states, that Jews were attacked 400 years with the accusation, that they serve an ass-god ... this ass-god is reflected to be Typhon-Seth. Also it's seen in connection to the Dionysos-cult.
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. ... search=ass

Typhon stories are here:
http://www.theoi.com/Gigante/Typhoeus.html

I remember dark, that there was a story, in which Typhon and his fights against the gods was used as a central reason, why the star pictures at heaven have their chaotic form. In the imagination of the poet the gods left their ordered position to flee the force of Typhon, so everything (at heaven) was confused. I don't find the story, so I can't confirm this.
In the general version Typhon attacked the god, which fled to Egypt and disguised as animals (so the myth should explain the animal gods of the Egyptians).
Ovid, Metamorphoses 5. 139 ff (trans. Melville) (Roman epic C1st B.C. to C1st A.D.) :
"Typhoeus, issuing from earth’s lowest depths, struck terror in those heavenly hearts, and they all turned their backs and fled, until they found refuge in Aegyptus and the seven-mouthed Nilus . . . Typhoeus Terrigena (Earthborn) even there pursued them and the gods concealed themselves in spurious shapes; `And Juppiter [Zeus] became a ram’, she said, `lord of the herd, and so today great Ammon Libys’ [Zeus-Ammon] shown with curling horns. Delius [Apollon] hid as a raven, Semeleia [Dionysos] as a goat, Phoebe [Artemis] a cat, Saturnia [Hera] a snow-white cow, Venus [Aphrodite] a fish and Cyllenius [Hermes] an ibis.'"
A star "Thuban" ... an arabic word for snake ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thuban
... once had been the North Polar star (around 2700 BCE) - it is part of the head of the star constellation Draco or Hydra, which, as we earlier learned, also was meant with "Camel" (and as such part of the discussed lot book). North Polar stars are important for orientation in times without electric light and without fixed routes.
Thuban sounds a little bit like Typhon. In the times of the Greece the polar function had been gone, but the story of a once "reigning Draco", whose downfall once happened, might have entered the mythological ideas.

*************

General the zodiac sign Cancer has the character of a dark center (the only sign, which is reigned by the moon - in contrast to Leo, the only sign reigned by the sun)
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: The Pope with the donkey / "Oldest Tarot"

#27
Modern astrologers have developed a 14-zodiac-signs-system (Stephen Schmidt 1970; additional Ophiuchus and Cetus) and a 13-signs-zodiac-system (Walter Berg and Jeff Mayo; additional Ophiuchos)

For Stephen Schimidt see Ophiuchos
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ophiuchus_%28astrology%29

Jeff Mayo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Mayo
Walter Berg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Berg

Ophiuchos means "Serpent-Bearer". A part of Ophiuchos appears in the region of the zodiac, between Scorpio and Sagitarius.
The Serpent-Bearer is related to the god Asclepios (son of Apollo and Coronis), so somehow this development is an extension of crow- or raven-story.

Well, this is NOT lunisolar astrology in a 19-years-cycle.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: The Pope with the donkey / "Oldest Tarot"

#28
I have been too busy to write for a while. However Now I have read Huck's posts on this very interesting topic and can make a few comments, starting with some comments on the Splendor Solis.. I hadn't realized that there were 22 pictures there. That fits one of my ideas, that the illustrators of alchemical texts were also familiar with tarot and intentionally wanted people to associate the two--either that, or with the Hebrew alphabet as mystically interpreted. I can't see why they would have wanted to associate themselves with lot books, but that is possible, I suppose. I don't think we can go back any further than the illustrators of c. 1530. The text itself doesn't have a 4-7-7-4 structure. (In what follows I am using the English translation in the book Transformation of the Psyche: The Symbolic alcchemy ofthe Spoendor Solis, by Henderson and Sherwood.) It has a title page (followed by a picture) a preface (followed by a picture), a "first treatise" (followed by a picture), and a second treatise (followed by a picture). These are not grouped together as a unit. Then comes the third treatise, with its seven parables, each with a picture. These are a unit of 7. After that is another group of 7, the first part of the first parat of the fourth treatise, to which 7 more pictures attach. The text does not mention anything about planets except in the seventh section, which mentions the Moon. So someone would infer, surely correctly, that the other sections also corresponded to planets. That was customary. Also, the only thing alchemical in the pictures is the flasks and what is in and around them. These are indeed described in the text. But the rest is the artist''s innovation, drawing on the "children of the planets" engravings that were then popular in Augsburg and elsewhere. After that comes, in the first part of the fifth treatise, "On the Manifold Operatons of the Whole Work in Four Chapters," which is indeed a group of four. Each has a picture. So the illustrators decided that to complement these four, they would have a group of four at the beginning, even though the earlier four aren't grouped as such by the text.

The Sp[lendor Solis doesn't end there, however. There are 2 more sections to the Fifth Treatise, and then the Sixth Treatise and the Seventh Treatise. The illustrators have chosen not to illustrate these sections, even though they could easily have done so. Several signs of the zodiac are mentioned, for example: Aries, Taurus, and Gemini in the Fifth Treatise, and Aries Cancer, Libra and Capricorn in the Seventh Treatise.

So it is the selection of the illustrators that gives the book a 4-7-7-4 structure, not the author himself, even though he did show a propensity to think in terms of sevens and fours.

Another thing is that the text itself probably was composed earlier than the illustrations. "Trimosian" also wrote an autobioigraphical essay "Alchemical Wanderings and Adventures in Searach of hte PHilosopher's Stone" (also in Henderson and Sherwood). He relates that he journeyed to Italy and eventually settled near Venice, where he worked in a nobleman's alchemical laboratory until the nobleman was drowned in a "hurricane" that happened during the ceremony in which the ring is thrown into the sea to renew the marriage agreement between Venice and the sea. If that actually happened, that would fix that date. Then he found other alchemical manuscripts, in "Egyptian," besides the ones the nobleman had, in some other place. Marie-Louise von Franz estimated 1490 as the date of composition. It is interesting that Venice is the place most mentioned.

Now on to Huck's post of Feb. 23.

First, on card 16, Huck has a question mark after "Lilio"
16. Von weisheit und thorheit
About wisdom and stupidity
Prophet Isaac
King Lilio (?)
Animal: Nachtigall (nightingale)
This "Lilio" might be Libya. And so confirming your idea that the list of countries reflects a different time, such as that of Alfonso X, with a still older origin. Libya, I think, counts as an "eastern" country, and so fits your theory that the eastern countries are the planets.

I would also agree, from the southern orientation of the countries, that the origin is Muslim or Jewish, from the time when Arabs ruled from Morocco to India (and beyond). It could have been for Alfonso, but the high position of Aragon among the countries on the list counts against that. Your Alfonso was of Castile and a rival of Aragon. Why not an Aragonese king? Girona was in Aragon, I think. King Pedro II comes to mind, who died at the battle of Muret, defending his vassal Raymond of Toulouse against the "Albigensian" crusaders in 1213. Alfonso II of Aragon is also possible, the first to rule over the "Catalan counties" as both King of Aragon and Count of Barcelona, starting in 1163. Or others.

About the hare, Huck wrote
The connection Emperor - Hare is strange ... the connection Hare - Easter-Hare seems to be of a younger date. But in Byzanz the Hare was a symbol of Christ (so I collected) ...


Image

Constantinople, c. 950 AD[/img]Detail from a marble panel from Constantinople, c. 950 CE: an eagle fighting a serpent stands on a hare; some interpret the scene as Christ (eagle) carrying a Christian soul (hare) to Paradise.

The eagle definitely is a Emperor symbol ... as the eagle in this system already was given to a planet, so with some logic the hae was used emperor.
But in the picture, the eagle is the symbol of Christ, according to the commentator, and the hare is the individual human soul. The eagle is defeating the serpent (the Devil) for control over the soul. "Hare" in the Emperor's card would signify the soul.

Well, that's all the time I have. More later.

Re: The Pope with the donkey / "Oldest Tarot"

#29
hi, Mike

nice, you're back again. Meanwhile the research to this point has expanded.
I still have two unfinished posts to it.
mikeh wrote:I have been too busy to write for a while. However Now I have read Huck's posts on this very interesting topic and can make a few comments, starting with some comments on the Splendor Solis.. I hadn't realized that there were 22 pictures there. That fits one of my ideas, that the illustrators of alchemical texts were also familiar with tarot ...
Well, better NOT too quick conclusions ... :-) ... the text has something with a 22 and the 22 appears in a "series of lot book tradition" of meanwhile 5 texts (taking Splendor Solis as the fifth), from which the first at least is dated to 1450, so in a time, when it may be doubted (5x14-theory etc.), that Trionfi cards had a 4x14 + 22 - structure. And the Splendor Solis definitely relates more to this lot book tradition than to Tarot.
All 5 texts appeared in a specific part of Germany, maybe one could call it "extended Swabia". And Germany more or less stayed immune against Italian Tarot cards (at least any evidence is missing ... they were much more interested in the Mantegna Tarocchi - this with much evidence), but possibly indeed had once (? 1494) a card deck with 21 additional cards: the deck with motifs of the Schedel'sche WeltchroniK.
... and intentionally wanted people to associate the two--either that, or with the Hebrew alphabet as mystically interpreted. I can't see why they would have wanted to associate themselves with lot books, but that is possible, I suppose.
Fugger and co. in c. 1530 might have considered themselves "superior" to the Italian development. The Fugger house had won against the big banking house, the Medici, and Charles V. had won against the current pope (sacco di Roma 1527. The Spanish-German alliance looked rather strong then. So somehow they didn't take "Italian triumphs" ... they had their own triumphs.
I don't think we can go back any further than the illustrators of c. 1530. The text itself doesn't have a 4-7-7-4 structure. (In what follows I am using the English translation in the book Transformation of the Psyche: The Symbolic alcchemy ofthe Spoendor Solis, by Henderson and Sherwood.) It has a title page (followed by a picture) a preface (followed by a picture), a "first treatise" (followed by a picture), and a second treatise (followed by a picture). These are not grouped together as a unit. Then comes the third treatise, with its seven parables, each with a picture. These are a unit of 7. After that is another group of 7, the first part of the first parat of the fourth treatise, to which 7 more pictures attach. The text does not mention anything about planets except in the seventh section, which mentions the Moon. So someone would infer, surely correctly, that the other sections also corresponded to planets. That was customary. Also, the only thing alchemical in the pictures is the flasks and what is in and around them. These are indeed described in the text. But the rest is the artist''s innovation, drawing on the "children of the planets" engravings that were then popular in Augsburg and elsewhere. After that comes, in the first part of the fifth treatise, "On the Manifold Operatons of the Whole Work in Four Chapters," which is indeed a group of four. Each has a picture. So the illustrators decided that to complement these four, they would have a group of four at the beginning, even though the earlier four aren't grouped as such by the text.

The Sp[lendor Solis doesn't end there, however. There are 2 more sections to the Fifth Treatise, and then the Sixth Treatise and the Seventh Treatise. The illustrators have chosen not to illustrate these sections, even though they could easily have done so. Several signs of the zodiac are mentioned, for example: Aries, Taurus, and Gemini in the Fifth Treatise, and Aries Cancer, Libra and Capricorn in the Seventh Treatise.

So it is the selection of the illustrators that gives the book a 4-7-7-4 structure, not the author himself, even though he did show a propensity to think in terms of sevens and fours.
I agree, that one has to regard text and pictures independently for the most part.
Another thing is that the text itself probably was composed earlier than the illustrations. "Trimosian" also wrote an autobioigraphical essay "Alchemical Wanderings and Adventures in Searach of hte PHilosopher's Stone" (also in Henderson and Sherwood). He relates that he journeyed to Italy and eventually settled near Venice, where he worked in a nobleman's alchemical laboratory until the nobleman was drowned in a "hurricane" that happened during the ceremony in which the ring is thrown into the sea to renew the marriage agreement between Venice and the sea. If that actually happened, that would fix that date. Then he found other alchemical manuscripts, in "Egyptian," besides the ones the nobleman had, in some other place. Marie-Louise von Franz estimated 1490 as the date of composition. It is interesting that Venice is the place most mentioned.
Wandering of Solomon Trismosin ...
When I was a young fellow, I came to a Miner named Flocker, who was also an Alchemist, but he kept his knowledge secret, and I could get nothing out of him.
Flocker sounds a little bit like Fugger. Fugger got his money with mines ...
As I had seen it really done by this miner, I started in the year 1473 on my travels to search out an artist in Alchemy, and where I heard of one I went to him, and in these wanderings I passed 18 months, learning all kinds of Alchemical Operations, of no great importance, but I saw the reality of some of the particular processes, and I spent 200 Florins of my own money, nevertheless I would not give up the search. I thought of boarding with some of my friends, and took a journey to Laibach, thence to Milan, and came to a monastery. There I heard some excellent lectures and served as an assistant, for about a year.

Then I travelled about, up and down in Italy, and came to an Italian tradesman, and a Jew, who understood German .... Then I journeyed with the Jew to Venice.
Jacob Fugger (1459 - 1525) biography:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jakob_Fugger
Seine Ausbildung hatte er bereits als 14-Jähriger in Venedig begonnen, wo er sich wohl bis gegen 1487 überwiegend aufhielt.
His teaching time started with 14 years in Venice, where he stayed till 1487.
1459 + 14 = 1473

Jacob Fugger, biography
Im Jahr 1469 starb der Vater des jungen Jakob und hinterließ seiner Familie 15.000
Gulden. Die Steuerbücher führten ihn als siebtreichsten Bürger Augsburgs. ...

In 1469 father Fugger died and left 15.000 Gulden, the 7th richest man in Augsburg.

Ulrich Fugger, der älteste Sohn von Jacob Fugger d.Ä. übernimmt nach dem Tod des
Vaters die Geschäfte. Der junge Jacob verbringt seine Ausbildung im Kloster und
möchte Priester werden ...

The oldest son Ulrich Fugger takes the business. Jacob wishes to become priest and is in a cloister.

1478 Nach dem Tod von drei seiner Brüder durch Unglücke und mehrere
Pestepidemien wird Jacob von seinem Bruder aus dem Kloster geholt.
Im Alter von 19 Jahren wird er neben Ulrich und Georg Geschäftsführer.

Three brothers die and various plagues had been. Jacob is taken from the cloister and enters the business in the age of 19.

1479 Jacob Fugger taucht zum ersten Mal in den Augsburger Steuerbüchern
auf. Sein privates Vermögen: 60 Gulden.

Jacob appear in the tax books of Augsburg. His possession: 60 Gulden.

Ulrich und Jacob gehen nach Rom und knüpfen erste Kontakte mit
Pabst Sixtus IV und der Familie Medici. Jacob bleibt in Rom, um die
dortige Filiale des Unternehmens aufzubauen.

Ulrich and Jacob go to Rome and take contacts with pope Sixtus and the Medici family. Jacob stays in Rome to build a Fugger-bank in Rome ...
The Fugger income explodes ... by money-lending and investment banking. A lot of high church officials have money, that they wish to hide. In 1484 the Fugger gets the first silver mine in Tirol. The "goldmaking" secret: The Fugger were very discrete about the ways, "how they got their money".

**************

What do we know of 1479 Rome? The Medici had long been the bankers of pope, but in the time of Sixtus they lost this position. The Pazzi got profit from it and the Pazzi helped in the plot against the Medici brothers 1478 ... and suffered for it, as it didn't turn out as expected. With "weak Medici" and "weak Pazzi" there was new "open banker business" in Rome 1479. It seems, that the Fugger belonged to those, who profited from the vacant positions.

As Jacob was educated as priest, he had an easy way to have contact to high church officials.

********
There are some lose connections to Jacob Fugger in the Salomon Trismosin story.

Let's look at Augsburg 1530 ... Jacob Fugger had died 1525. During the sacco di Roma 1527 lots of plundering soldiers had send their strongly increased money via the "reliable Fugger bankers" to Germany. Naturally the Fuggers got a part of this money for themselves. They were already rich, but this additional "much money".

Naturally the Fugger in 1530 still hadn't an interest to have others knowing about the ways "how they got their money". As some might have been puzzled about the quick advance of the Fugger-family a confusing goldmaker-legend in "lose", but "not direct", connection to the Fugger-family might have done its work.

So ... what do we have with Splendor Solis, produced in Augsburg?
Now on to Huck's post of Feb. 23.

First, on card 16, Huck has a question mark after "Lilio"
16. Von weisheit und thorheit
About wisdom and stupidity
Prophet Isaac
King Lilio (?)
Animal: Nachtigall (nightingale)
This "Lilio" might be Libya. And so confirming your idea that the list of countries reflects a different time, such as that of Alfonso X, with a still older origin. Libya, I think, counts as an "eastern" country, and so fits your theory that the eastern countries are the planets.
Yes, Lybia was suspected already by others. The text writes "Lilio", so I think, its correct to give it with "(?)".

Yes, there are a lot of Eastern countries considered, especially around the "birds = planets" ... although there is some "Spanish favor" in the geographical construction (kings), there is also an Eastern favor, which led one think of crusader states or Byzanz or an Eastern orientation as the base of the system. My idea is, that it went through "Spanish hands (Jews, King Alfonso X.)", but that the astrological base was much older and has to be searched in very old 13-months-astrology. And their we have the Makedonian-Babylonian unity of the period after Alexander, which is generally suspected as the birth-situation of Western astrology.
I would also agree, from the southern orientation of the countries, that the origin is Muslim or Jewish, from the time when Arabs ruled from Morocco to India (and beyond). It could have been for Alfonso, but the high position of Aragon among the countries on the list counts against that. Your Alfonso was of Castile and a rival of Aragon. Why not an Aragonese king? Girona was in Aragon, I think. King Pedro II comes to mind, who died at the battle of Muret, defending his vassal Raymond of Toulouse against the "Albigensian" crusaders in 1213. Alfonso II of Aragon is also possible, the first to rule over the "Catalan counties" as both King of Aragon and Count of Barcelona, starting in 1163. Or others.
Alfonso was made "nearly" German emperor ... and Alfonso was called "the astrolog" ... and Alfonso made the Alfonsine tables ... and Alfonso was the one, who initiated a translator school in Toledo (with Jewish translators).

But as far I got, the relationship of Alfonso with Aragon wasn't bad. It might well be, that the text arrived in Germany during the emperor election phase in 1255-57 .. it might well be, that at this time also Aragon-German contacts existed and had some weight. Aragon (Gerona) had more of "early Kabbala", that's true. But the 19-years-calendar was simply Jewish, not specific for Kabbala.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: The Pope with the donkey / "Oldest Tarot"

#30
This is an unfinished post I'd in work the last days, the research is proceeding ...

************************************

A further system is inside the lot book, which I ignored at the beginning. It's inside the search system, "how you get an answer". This part is given at Folio 3 and starts with ...

David 1 [figure 1 = Libra, David]
In Mercurius Land
findst Du Norden zu hand
["in Mercurius' country
you find North 'zu hand'"]
.. so for each figure are added a direction (1 ... North etc.) and one of the 7 "planets" (2). The form of the sentence repeats occasionally and occasionally differs ... if this is latter quality is "just accident" or further "system information" I can't decide for the moment.
Anyway, I would see, that this latter part has good chances to be "corrupted text", so I ignore it for the moment. The direction (1) and the additional planet attribute present some system, so this part one should consider as "system-information".

********************************
According this we have (I ignore the direction for the moment) ...

Zodiac-zone
**************
1. Mercury - Libra
2. Mercury - Aries
3. Jupiter - Taurus
4. Jupiter - Cancer
5. Mercury - Leo
---------
6. Mercury - Raven
----------------------
7. Jupiter - Virgo
8. Venus - Pisces
9. Mars - Aquarius
10. Jupiter - Gemini
11. Mars - Sagitarius
12. Mars - Scorpio
13. Mars - Capricornus

Birds-zone
************
14. Venus - Crane
15. Sun - Eagle
16. Venus - Nightingale
17. Venus - Camel
18. Moon - Parrot

Top-zone
***********
19. Saturn - Stag
20. Saturn - Dog
21. Saturn - Hare
22. Saturn - Donkey

How to understand this? First we learn, that any of the 5 planets has 4 appearances ... but moon (18) and sun (15) has only one (5x4 + 1 + 1 = 22) . The 4 appearances are in each case of the 5 "real planets" North-East-South-West. Sun gets only "North-East" and Moon gets only "South-East" (neither North-West nor South-West is used as direction in this system).

Here we meet the first curiosity: Sun has the number 15 and Moon has the number 18 in this new reflected system ... and sun has the number 15 and Moon the number 18 ALSO in the Splendor Solis ...

I remind to the structure Splendor Solis, earlier reflected ...

1-11 .. difficult pictures, which irgnored the zodiac idea
12-18 .. 7 planets according the rather common Chaldean row with
... 12 Saturn
... 13 Jupiter
... 14 Mars
... 15 Sun
... 16 Venus
... 17 Mercury
... 18 Moon
19-22 ... finishing 4 pictures

The earlier conclusion had been, that ...

* first there was 3 rather identical versions of the lot book

* second there was a variation of the other lot book, Trier "Losbuch Moselfranken" with 7 Kurfürsten at positions 12-18

* third there was the Splendor Solis, which seem to have imitated the 7 Kurfürsten (Electors) in the Losbuch Moselfranken

... and now it looks, as if 15 = sun and 18 = moon was directly taken from the original lot book (at least from 1450).

****************

Well, their might be an intentional overlapping of the two rows (the artificial zodiac with its curious twists and the 7 planets).
The curious 13-signs zodiac ends in its lot book row with ...

..
12 Scorpio = usually interpreted as death
13 Capricorn = usually interpreted as birth, as in the "birth of Jesus Christ"
..
and that's the overlapping part (zodiac = 1-13 ... planets 12-18).

The "old man (year) goes", "the new man (year) comes".

Greek mythology is a story of the change of generations, a sort of Oidipus drama ...

Uranos, dethroned by ..
Kronos (Saturn), dethroned by ..
Zeus (Jupiter), NOT dethroned by
Ares (Mars), Zeus' legal son of Hera
and NOT dethroned by
Apollo(= Sun), Zeus' illegal son by Leto

The begin of the Chaldean row (Saturn-Jupiter-Mars-Sun ... ), which is used (as it seems) in lot book and Splendor Solis, displays a part of the genealogical row

In Roman mythology we have Mars becoming the father Romulus and Remus, the twins, which build the city ... for the Roman mythology we have a logical genealogical continuation.

In the Greek version Ares has as most dominant love affair his pairing with Aphrodite, which cheats her Athen husband Hephaistos with the Ares from Theben. The result is mainly "Harmonia", married by the Phoenician Kadmos .. Harmonia has two brothers, "Fear" and "Horror" are their names, they accompany their father in his military escapades.
Theben had been (often) an enemy of Athen, and Athen should be considered relative influential on the development of parts of the Greek mythology.
In the Trojan war Ares and Aphrodite fought on the sides of the Trojans, not at the sides of the Greek. Later with Rome the Greek had a new foe with "Ares-alias-Mars"-mythology.

Rome was relative influential on the later astrology ... planets have Roman names, not Greek names.

****************

The role of Mars shines up, when we return back to the analyzes of the 13-signs zodiac, under the aspect of the fresh imported informations, which I earlier ignored.

According this Mars (the son) reigns in ...

9. Mars - Aquarius
(10. Jupiter - Gemini)
11. Mars - Sagitarius
12. Mars - Scorpio
13. Mars - Capricornus

... in other words, in the whole dark season (winter) from Scorpio - Aquarius

and Jupiter ( a little more complicated) reigns in ...

3. Jupiter - Taurus
4. Jupiter - Cancer
..
7. Jupiter - Virgo
..
10. Jupiter - Gemini

... so Jupiter has a dominance in spring/summer (Taurus till Cancer and then a jump to Virgo)

Jupiter is in this system isolated from his son Mars by Mercury (known for functions of diplomacy, the "peace-making" diplomat) ...

Neither Scorpio (Mars) nor Aquarius (also Mars) have an attachment to Jupiter-reigned signs. If we would simplify the model, we would say, that the whole concepts starts as ...

Mars - Scorpio winter-season till Aquarius
Mercury - two Spring diplomatic months with Pisces+Aries
Jupiter - Taurus summer season till Leo
Mercury - Two autumn diplomatic months with Virgo+Libra
etc.

This would be a very easy and logical way to describe the year with 12 months ... and possibly it existed once (indeed I remember, that there were 2-seasons and 3 seasons-models mentioned somewhere).

However, the 19-years-concept was once invented and created a 13-signs-astrology.

... well, mythology tells, that Kronos took his dangerous tool, and that had a specific effect at the genital of his father, which dropped from above (heaven - the region of the birds) down to the ocean and the fishes (= Pisces) wondered, what this might be. It became Aphrodite (= Venus)

Venus on earth:
Venus = month of Pisces
8. Venus - Pisces

Venus at heaven (region of the birds):

14. Venus - Crane
(15. Sun - Eagle)
16. Venus - Nightingale
17. Venus - Camel

(18. Moon - Parrot)

**************************

By the fall of the genital Pisces was taken away from Mercury (the diplomat and "god of trade") an he claimed the 13th sign to keep the whole model in balance. So he got the bird (Virgo has doves usually as attribute, so let's assume a white dove) ... but it seems, that Jupiter claimed this "virgin from heaven" = Virgo for himself, so Mercury traded also Virgo against a sign of Jupiter and Mercury got Leo.

As we have it in mythology, the "virgo from heaven" was married to Hephaistos (Hephaistos = Libra) ... which has its expression in common astrology with ".. Virgo - Libra .." ... but Ares=Mars interfered and offered himself as a lover.
But Helios (the sun) observed the case and told it to Hephaistos and Hephaistos, the tricky, made a tricky web with which he captured the situation (the illegal occurrence) ... now we have to observe, that Libra=Hephaistos is the first sign in the 13-month-astrology. The first sign (in a book that's title and impressum) tells us the name of the author of the construction, and according this the author is Hephaistos.

At this case we have to observe, that another "strange row" of the zodiac is implemented in the Minchiate (cards 24-35). Cards 24 (first of the zodiac) is there also Libra=Hephaistos, so there we another Hephaistos-work, also at page 1 of the zodiac. .

Image


And another Hephaistos work at the Splendor Solis:

Image


Titled with "Arms Artis", picture 1 in Splendor Solis ... Hephaistos was smith, specialist for armor.

***********

Till now we have (according the numbers in the 13-signs-zodiac):

Jupiter: signs 3-4-7-10
Mercury: signs 1-2-5-6
Mars: sign 9-11-12-13
Venus: signs 8-14-16-17
Sun: sign 15
Moon: sign 18

Saturn gets the numbers 19-20-21-22 ...
For other reasons we already before recognized, that the arrangement has a ...

13 (1-13) - zodiac
5 (14-18) - 5 planets
4 (19-22) - finishing elements

... specific structure. Saturn is the planet "outside of the system" ... the fresh imported system "at Folio 3" of the lot book confirms this earlier recognition.

A view at the numbers:

1x3 = 3 Jupiter
2x3 = 6 Mercury
3x3 = 9 Mars (near 8 Venus)
4x3 = 12 Mars
5x3 = 15 Sun
6x3 = 18 Moon
7x3 = 21 Saturn

... get's all 7 planets (beside Venus, but in this case "Mars is near Venus")

Jupiter has the numbers 4 + 10 ... which associates the Tetraktys with 1+2+3+4=10, in which 4 and 10 is combined. Also Jupiter has 3 + 7 (=10), that's the common life-tree-form with 10 Sephiroth.

Mercury has 1 + 2 (the base of the binary-system) and 5 + 6 (the base for systems arranged on 10 or 12)

Venus (love) is associated to 8 (2x2x2)
Mars is associated to 9 (3x3)

If we would exchange Sun with Moon ...

Saturn = 21 ... Saturday
Sun = 15 ... (exchanged with Moon) ... Sunday
Moon = 18 ... (exchanged with Sun) ... Monday
Mars = 12 + 9 ... Tuesday
Mercury = 6 ... Wednesday
Jupiter = 3 ... Thursday
.... :-) ... Venus outside of the row ... Friday ... perhaps Venus was considered as "nothing" (= 0) ?

If we would exchange Moon with sun, the "overlapping" at 12-13 wouldn't work. However, if we turn the Chaldean row upside down, then ...

15 Moon (moved from 18 to 15)
16 Mercury
17 Venus
18 Sun (moved from 15 to 18)
19 Mars
20 Jupiter
21 Saturn

... the system would have then free places at 14 and 22 (with 13 zodiac signs) ...

... and free places at 13,14 and 22 (with 12 zodiac signs)

****************

Now I import the directions (North-East-South-West etc.), which I earlier left aside (just to keep things simple)

Zodiac-zone
**************
1. Mercury - Libra - NORTH
2. Mercury - Aries - WEST
3. Jupiter - Taurus - EAST
4. Jupiter - Cancer - NORTH
5. Mercury - Leo - EAST
---------
6. Mercury - Raven - SOUTH
----------------------
7. Jupiter - Virgo - SOUTH
8. Venus - Pisces - EAST
9. Mars - Aquarius - NORTH
10. Jupiter - Gemini - WEST
11. Mars - Sagitarius - SOUTH
12. Mars - Scorpio - WEST
13. Mars - Capricornus - EAST

Birds-zone
************
14. Venus - Crane - NORTH
15. Sun - Eagle - NORTH EAST
16. Venus - Nightingale - SOUTH
17. Venus - Camel - WEST
18. Moon - Parrot - SOUTH-EAST

Top-zone
***********
19. Saturn - Stag - WEST
20. Saturn - Dog - EAST
21. Saturn - Hare - NORTH
22. Saturn - Donkey - SOUTH


Then I sort the elements according their direction:

2. Mercury - Aries - WEST
10. Jupiter - Gemini - WEST
12. Mars - Scorpio - WEST
17. Venus - Camel - WEST
19. Saturn - Stag - WEST

5. Mercury - Leo - EAST
3. Jupiter - Taurus - EAST
13. Mars - Capricorn - EAST
8. Venus - Pisces - EAST
20. Saturn - Dog - EAST

1. Mercury - Libra - NORTH
4. Jupiter - Cancer - NORTH
9. Mars - Aquarius - NORTH
14. Venus - Crane - NORTH
21. Saturn - Hare - NORTH

6. Mercury - Raven - SOUTH
7. Jupiter - Virgo - SOUTH
11. Mars - Sagittarius - SOUTH
16. Venus - Nightingale - SOUTH
22. Saturn - Donkey - SOUTH
Huck
http://trionfi.com

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