Re: Lombardische Trieste

#21
Kaplan source for writing "1790" is PN = Eberhard Pinder, "Spielkarten aus 5 Fünf Jahrhunderten", Bielefeld: Bielefelder Spielkarten GMBH, 1957

The collection of Spielkartenmuseum Stuttgart-Leinfelden had been earlier in Bielefeld, so I assume, that the collection already had the deck, which became later used for the reproduction.

A used book is here:
https://secure.booklooker.de/app/detail ... b69abe607a

... but I doubt, that it offers much information to the deck. (Probably: They had the deck, could identify the producer, but couldn't get more about the context). "1790" sounds like an estimation.

Interestingly Kaplan knows another card producer "R.M. 'alla fortuna'" from "1790 in Trieste" by the sources B3 = Bibliotheque National. Jeu et Magie. Paris 1984. and CK = Keller, William B. "A catalog of the Cary Collection of Playing Cards...., 4 vols" Yale university Library.

Perhaps thee is a relation by this two producers in the same city at the same time.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Lombardische Trieste

#22
Thanks Huck, I'll try to follow up those refs. I've been comparing the cards with the Ancient Tarot of Bologna - there are many similarities, most notable in odd details like the arrow on the Emperor's helmet and the figure to the left of the Wheel of Fortune who seems to be half buried in the earth. The colours are similar, also the feminine feel to the drawing in both decks. My copy of the Tarot of Bologna is a peculiar one with modern titles rather than a true facimile - I'll try to find some other decent images to post for comparison.

Pen
He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy...

Re: Lombardische Trieste

#23
I wasn't successful in finding images online, so used my copy with modern text instead. The Trieste is on the left, the Bologna on the right.

Most interesting is the difference between the flag or banner held by the king on the Trieste Wheel of Fortune and the single wing on the Bologna card, also how the Emperor's hair on the Trieste becomes part of his helmet on the Bologna. It's very odd how some details are clearer and make more sense in the Trieste, and vice versa. No time now for more now....


He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy...

Re: Lombardische Trieste

#24
Regarding the flag/staff and hat, I'd guess that the examples in the Bologna are more "original" than in the Trieste.

The hat on the Bologna matches the Tarot de Marseille, it is the Trieste that has changed it to "hair". Here's the Dodal to compare:

Image


A winged figure at the top makes more sense to me that the figure holding the flag. I think it's a good question to ask; what is going on with the figure on top of the Wheel in the Tarot de Marseille?

Here's the Noblet, Dodal and Vieville:


I can see how the object could be interpreted as a wing, although, if we look to the Tarot of Paris, it seems to imply that, at least in this other early example, the figure is caped:

Image


More interesting is the Tarot de Marseille sold by Piatnik, which is by Ignaz Krebs, Freiburg Im Breisgau, 18th century, compared with the Bologna, we see some interesting details. Bologna by Zoni, Tarot de Marseille by Krebs:
Image


This is interesting because they both have the same "reversed" Wheel (compared to other Tarot de Marseille decks), but with the characters are in the "proper" position. But if you look at the Krebs card on the right, you can see that the character on the left is there, with his "skirt", and tail, as in other Tarot de Marseille. Now looking at the Zoni on the left, he seems to have turned the "skirt" into part of the structure of the Wheel itself! The tail now looks like flames or something. Also, you can see how the squatting figure on top has turned into a standing figure. Both have the tail coming out to the left.

So I can see an image like on the Tarot of Paris, with a robed figure, probably a king, at the top of the wheel. In the Vieville, he is still there, although there is now confusion in the card. Is he kneeling with one leg on something? A treasure chest??? The Noblet sees pretty much the same thing. The Dodal possibly has the "king" as an animal, it is simply hard to tell. Both Noblet and Dodal seem to have a tail sticking off the right side of the platform, I wonder if it was a tail originally, or if it might be a tassel? Here's a similar one on the King of Cups:

Image


It's probably intentionally a tail, but I thought I'd mention the tassel as a possibility.

When we look at the Krebs, a lot has changed. The wheel has reversed left to right, the figure on the left has almost been split in two, and the figure at the top has an area behind him which might have been a cape, but can easily be seen as a wing; all of this is picked up in the Bologna. I'd guess that the Trieste is a step further removed, the body on the left has been completely removed from the head at the bottom; and the figure at the top has had the wing turn into what looks like a flag. Interstingly, it is easier to see this by comparing to the Krebs than to the Bologna, so I imagine that the ancestry might lead not directly from a card like the Bologna, but to a card like the Krebs.

Image

The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: Lombardische Trieste

#25
Thanks Robert, these comparisons are really fascinating. I do find it difficult though to arrange the cards into any logical order (and come to conclusions that hold up) without many of the available Tarot de Marseille actually in my hands - I do have quite a few and his forum really helps but I think I must expand my collection. The Piatnik Krebs looks very like the Tarot Rhenan, also by Krebs (I do have that one) - perhaps I should buy a copy. And possibly I'm approaching relationships between decks from an artistic viewpoint rather than exercising cold logic, which may be a mistake. My feeling was/is that there is a definite link between the Trieste and the Bologna - many figures look as though they've been copied one from the other (with artistic licence) - and the 'feel' and many small odd details are very similar. Both have a very 'modern' look too - especially the Trieste - it could be a 20th cent. Tarot de Marseille.

Pen


Trieste>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bologna
He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy...

Re: Lombardische Trieste

#26
Hi Pen,

I really enjoy having these conversations, and I hope that my participation isn't coming across as dictatorial, it's meant to be explorative. I absolutely agree with you about the relationship between the Trieste and the Bologna, they are certainly related, at the very least they show a lot of Tarot de Marseille I influence, and also share some other common ancestor. I'm certainly perplexed about when these decks broke off from each other. The Tarot de Marseille I seems to have basically died off in France in the early 1700s, (Dodal and Payen, with a few others), but obviously, it either "continued" to develop in Italy, or returned early enough to be a major influence on the development in Italy. Besançon and Belgian, too.
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: Lombardische Trieste

#27
Hi Robert,

Not at all dictatorial, and I enjoy them too.(*) I've been trying to catch up with the other threads/posts on the forum, and find myself somewhat overwhelmed by the different interpretations of imagery and the historical connections made from the impressive knowledge and research of different members here. I couldn't help making a connection myself - to the observation made by Gombrich in Art and Illusion...;)
As he scans the landscape, the sights which can be matched successfully with the schemata he has learned to handle will leap forward as centres of attention. The style, like the medium, creates a mental set which makes the artist look for certain aspects in the scene around him that he can render. Painting is an activity, and the artist will therefore tend to see what he paints rather than to paint what he sees.

E.H. Gombrich (Art and Illusion)
This is not to imply that any of the connections/interpretations are illusions, just that everyone has their own vision...

And I had a thought re. the Wheel of Fortune in those decks where the left hand figure makes no sense. It would seem that those who designed or copied an existing card either had no real understanding of what they were depicting, or simply didn't think about it at all. Their approach to creating cards may have been casual, to say the least. Two hundred plus years later, we examine these same images minutely, looking for meaning of one kind or another. The whole area of tarot history's a minefield for misinterpretation (which is probably what makes it so fascinating).

Pen
He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy...

Re: Lombardische Trieste

#28
I found a very similar deck at Kaplan I, page 48, there called Piedmontese or Tarocchi of Venice cards. The comment adds "circa late seventeenth to mid-18th century", so considerable earlier than the other "similar" decks - if Kaplan's dating is true. .

There is given a very interesting backside, which has the inscription "F. in Gorizia" ... the motif shows an ostrich with an "Hufeisen" (horse-shoe ?) ... this is a very well known motif in early 16th century decks.

Gorizia is a location at the border between Italy and Slowenia.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Lombardische Trieste

#29
Huck, the one you mention is called Piedmontese or Tarocchi of Venice in Kaplan. I do wish the images were larger - they're so difficult to see properly, but judging from the clearer cards, the Lombardische artist was more skilled. I spent a little while this morning looking for a better version online, with no luck. The ostrich & horseshoe? motif on the reverse is very interesting - do you mean that combined (the ostrich and the horseshoe) were a common motif, or separately? Any ideas what the motif stands for? I must have a look through my books. It's interesting that both the Bologna and the Lombardische seem to favour blues rather than reds in their colour schemes - it would be good to see this one in colour.

Pen
He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy...

Re: Lombardische Trieste

#30
Image


That's from the Schäufelein-deck ca. 1535. But it was a general motif, probably referring to a proverb. Hans Sachs made a poem:

"Der Strauß eysen verdawen kann,
Also auch ein gotloser man
Richt sich tobet zürnet und wüt
und sicht auf gottes willen nit
(Der Gurzgauch)"

The Ostrich is able to eat iron and is compared to a man of similar nature, who doesn't look at the will of god.

The deck of Schäufelein has various animals.

http://trionfi.com/m/d00605.htm
Huck
http://trionfi.com

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