EUGIM wrote:* Tarot was based in the earliest Christian sacred beliefs,so not in the Catholic gaaaarrrlllsss...........

Pardon me? I don't understand what you mean?

I have found here:
http://www.edizionimartina.com/edizioni ... ti/316.asp
a quote from the "Discorso sopra l'ordine delle figure dei Tarocchi" (Discourse about the order of the Tarot images) written by Francesco Piscina and published in 1565.

Of course, it is a "late" source, but here it is:

Francesco Piscina (1565) wrote:"...considerando la mente dell'Inventore diciamo egli haver voluto in queste soe figure di mostrare, molti Morali ammaestramenti, e sotto qualche difficoltà morder i cativi e pestiferi costumi, & insegnare quante attieni hoggidi fuori del diritto & onesto governare, & al contrario del dovere, e giusto maneggiare siano, per il che evidentemente non solo ha dimostrato essere buono e fedel seguace della Cattolica e Cristiana fede, ma eziamdio molto esperto & eccellente de i costumi della vita Civile, Poscia che di ventidoe figure che ha posto & eletto non vi sia pur una che ben ponderata non apporti seco grandissima e profondissima consideratione

Thinking of the mind of the inventor, we can say he wanted to illustrate with his images many moral lessons. In difficult times, he also wanted to condemn bad habits, teaching about things that are carried on out of right and honest rules, in contradiction with duty and the correct way to behave. So he proved to be not only a good and loyal follower of the Christian Catholic faith, but also an excellent expert of the facts of civil life. Of the twenty-two figures he chose, there is none that, if one meditates on it, does not carry with itself the greatest and deepest meaning.

Marco

* Sorry Robert !!!

EUGIM wrote:* Tarot was based in the earliest Christian sacred beliefs,so not in the Catholic gaaaarrrlllsss...........




Pardon me? I don't understand what you mean?
Answer : Giiiirrrllllssss ...... ( Zappa sing )

- Roberto : Did you see the Marcello Mastroianni tribute ? ( It s all there,mon ami ! )

Ah ! Sofia !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Che vediamo pronto caro amicci !

*Marco !!!

- You are a Maestro for me ever !

-Tell me if it s talking about the 22 only ?
1565 it is very early paesano...

- Here you drives me to the carticellas as moral images depictions to have in mind for not to fall into averno.

* Just aside your quotation ma non troppo...

- Could be at least a little possibility that the 22 were created as a succession of religion allegories that THEN were incorporated to the game along with the others 52/56 ?


Che vedddiamo !

EUGIM wrote:* Just aside your quotation ma non troppo...

- Could be at least a little possibility that the 22 were created as a succession of religion allegories that THEN were incorporated to the game along with the others 52/56 ?


Che vedddiamo !

Of course it is a little possible, I've been looking for it for years. A morality play, a collection of stories, a story of a saint.. who knows? Unfortunately, neither I nor anyone else has been able to find a shred of evidence that the 22 existed as a group before the Tarot. So until something is found, since I'm interested in tarot history and what actually happened rather than dreaming of what might have happened, I'll accept that it is a lot more likely that the 22 were combined for the first time with the creation of tarot until some contrary evidence is, if ever, discovered.

I've asked James to split this topic and move the discussion on the ordering of the trumps to this new thread:
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=259&start=0

EUGIM wrote: -Tell me if it s talking about the 22 only ?
1565 it is very early paesano...

Hello Eugim,
unluckily, I don't know the content of the whole essay by Piscina. From the title, I think he only discusses the Trumps.

1565 is a lot of time ago, but more than a century later than the invention of Tarot. In the mean time, many things happened, such as Martin Lutero and the Council of Trento. So when Piscina says "Catholic" he is doing so to underline that the inventor of Tarot was not a Lutheran heretic. I would like to know more about this text. There are too many things I would like to know! ;)

A presto, Eugenio.
Marco

-Marco said : "So when Piscina says "Catholic" he is doing so to underline that the inventor of Tarot was not a Lutheran heretic."

*Adesso sì, ho capito !

Yep, yep - Catholic alright. And yet... nobody has yet been able to explain to me the presence of a Popesse and an Empress in the sequence of trumps. These hardly fit Catholic (or indeed, Protestant) hierarchies. Women were used for representations of virtues (and sometimes, vices), for abstractions such as stars and moons, but their position in society circa 1440 was pretty much tied to that of men. What's the point of representing a Popesse, who didn't exist and would have been seen as an aberation far worse than a Bagatto? What's the point of representing the wife of the Emperor? Unless these two figures have roles to play. And in the Catholic scheme of things - what are their roles? The Empress isn't even represented pregnant, which might justify her presence (as mother of the heir).

I know some people think the Popesse is a man in drag (you know who you are), but I don't, and I'm not convinced by the argument. The Empress is certainly not.

So - inspired by Catholicism, no doubt (and not surprising) - but not a Catholic piece of work, by a mile.