Re: Hello! - and kind question for help w.r.t. the etymology of tarot

#31
mikeh wrote:
24 Mar 2021, 02:18
I do not know what "AFAIK" means.

What we need is a German version of the younger Pratesi, someone who can go and actually be permitted to look at the Nördlingen records.

And yes, people really should join the IPCS. It's not expensive, about 16 US dollars a year, if I remember correctly. And also read their forum (which I have not been doing!). Richter's posts are terse but complex, and I'm not sure any paraphrase by us can do it justice.
In doubts, the search engine knows, what afaik means. ... :-) ... as far I know, afaik means "as far I know" ... Yes, a German Pratesi would be nice.

Schreiber's text is very complex. Actually I imagined, that he got a lot of material by writing to the archives. He published 1937. This was a time, when German children got the commission to check their ancestors, what promoted ancestor research and generally much activities in the archives, possibly a very good time to search for playing card records. For the nasty political aims of the time the ancestor research was done to find out who is Jewish and who not.
"Die Altesten Spielkarten und Die Auf Das Kartenspiel Bezug Habenden Urkunden Des 14. und 15 Jahrhunderts" ... Schreiber notes "Urkunden", not book reports in 18th or 19th century.
Ah ..... Checking his long publication list, the text about Spielkarten isn't listed ... Schreiber died 1932, the book (1937) was published posthum. Schreiber likely had gathered a collection of material, which was published by his pupils.
https://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Ludwig_Schreiber

For the IPCS ... did the IPCS organ ever note something about this Forum? Can somebody quote there something? In 13 years of the existence? Or about the Aeclectic site, which was older? Hm ....

search.php?keywords=ipcs
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Hello! - and kind question for help w.r.t. the etymology of tarot

#32
mikeh wrote:
24 Mar 2021, 02:18

And yes, people really should join the IPCS. It's not expensive, about 16 US dollars a year, if I remember correctly.
How are you getting this bargain? For print and digital, the subscription for Europeans outside the UK is £44, which works out to €50.99 (today's rate).
Outside of Europe, including US, the IPCS site gives as £49, or $67.21 (today's rate).
https://i-p-c-s.org/subs/
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Re: Hello! - and kind question for help w.r.t. the etymology of tarot

#33
Huck wrote:
24 Mar 2021, 04:43

For the IPCS ... did the IPCS organ ever note something about this Forum? Can somebody quote there something? In 13 years of the existence? Or about the Aeclectic site, which was older? Hm ....

search.php?keywords=ipcs
The IPCS discussion forum has been up since 2012, but only recently, in the last couple of years, has become very active. There is not much discussion of Tarot.

The only reference to our forum there seems to have occurred in 2014, in a conversation about the Castello Ursino Nude on Stag card, between Marco Ponzi, Emilia Maggio, and finally Michael Howard, who discusses our discussion of that card here. No further replies were received after that.
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Re: Hello! - and kind question for help w.r.t. the etymology of tarot

#35
Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:
24 Mar 2021, 09:55
The IPCS discussion forum has been up since 2012, but only recently, in the last couple of years, has become very active. There is not much discussion of Tarot.
Perhaps Richter would be interested, when he hears, that his thesis was discussed here in this forum. We also discuss occasionally topics outside of Tarot, perhaps the IPCS members don't know this.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Hello! - and kind question for help w.r.t. the etymology of tarot

#36
Ross wrote
How are you getting this bargain? For print and digital, the subscription for Europeans outside the UK is £44, which works out to €50.99 (today's rate).
Outside of Europe, including US, the IPCS site gives as £49, or $67.21 (today's rate).
https://i-p-c-s.org/subs/
Well, I don't need hard copies. The price I quoted was for digital only, which gives all the same access, they say. It's 12 British pounds a year, $16.40 at today's rate.

Huck wrote
For the IPCS ... did the IPCS organ ever note something about this Forum? Can somebody quote there something? In 13 years of the existence? Or about the Aeclectic site, which was older? Hm ....
Yes, there is hardly ever anything that interests me on the Forum, which is why I don't remember to look at it. I don't have a general interest in old card games, such as for Maw (Irish, 16th cent.), Rümffen (a1609 "ordnung" ), Turmspiel (16th cent.), Glic (mid-15th or earlier), Linkieren (18th), Höllfahren (16th cent.), Knüffeln (modern Karnöffel), etc., etc. Although sometimes interesting stuff hides under dull titles: I wouldn't have guessed, for example, that "Bassen, Im Turn, etc." would be where Richter's posts on Karnöffel would be, or that one of many threads about Tarock, in particular one about Tarock-Hombre, would give a reference for what game Mozart played.

But the journal occasionally publishes articles of relevance here, even if Pratesi and Depaulis also post their articles online. There was an article fairly recently on the "Alessandro Sforza" deck, convincing if not earth-shaking, about the latest possible date for the deck. There is also the search engine "Ask Alexander," where old articles appear after a decent interval (I'm not sure how long), included in the membership fee. I use it often. If you know of some other way to access old Playing Card articles, let us know.

Re: Hello! - and kind question for help w.r.t. the etymology of tarot

#37
Me
If one goes to the idea, how the 5x14 game was played, one might suggest 1+2+3+4 = 10 points for each suit, 3x4 points for Fool, highest trump and lowest trump and 17 points for 17 possible tricks in a game with 4 persons (4x17=68). This would make 4x10 + 12 + 17 = 69 points to distribute in the game for the 5x14 deck and the Lucca-Tarocchi and one card (for the Lucca Tarocchi) or 2 cards (5x14-deck), which can serve as Blinde, or Skat or whatever the expression is in the relevant culture.

This is not all ...
vh0610
If this is not all, at least I am interested in more information...
1368/69
Emperor Charles IV in Lucca, possibly with some playing cards ...

1376/1377
Emperor Charles IV in Aachen and in Paris, possibly with many playing cards ... in 1376 the son Wenzel, 15 years old, is made king of the Roman Empire, inside the festivities possibly many playing cards are distributed

1377
Johannes von Rheinfelden observes many, many playing cards in Freiburg im Breisgau.
He notes 3 deck types with 52 cards and 4x13 structure and different court compositions.
He notes 1 deck type with 65 cards and 5x13-structure
He notes 1 deck type with 78 cards and 6x13-structure
He notes 1 deck type with 60 cards and 4x15-structure and 5 courts, Kings, Queens, Obers, Junckfrawe, Unters. The number cards show professions

c. 1455
The Hofämterspiel is produced for the young Bohemian king Ladislaus posthumus. It presents Hofämter (a sort of professions) on its number cards. One may conclude, that, if the Hofämterspiel was produced for a Bohemian king in 1455, that the deck with 60 cards and also with professions on the number cards, which was observed by John of Rheinfelden, was also produced for a king of Bohemia. In this case either for the young Wenzel or for his father Charles IV. Likely for Wenzel 1376, when he was crowned in Aachen.

1368/1369
The journey in the future of 1368/69 gives reason to believe, that the hypothetical decks, which Charles IV had brought to Lucca, possibly were similar to the decks, which John of Rheinfelden described. Between these was a deck with 5 suits, and each of the suits had 13 cards, which made then together 13-13-13-13-13 and this gives 65 cards.
History has it, that some playing card researchers observed an anomaly in some fragments of a specific deck Type from Lucca, made in 17th century. From the various fragments in different locations they concluded, that there should have been used a deck consisting out of 4x14 suit cards and 13 trumps of a Minchiate deck, consisting of Fool, the trumps 9-15 and the 5 not numbered trumps on the positions 36-40.
see http://trionfi.com/0/g/72
... a rather old article, maybe from 2004/5

13-13-13-13-13 ....... The JvR-deck with 65 cards ... possibly one suit was defined as a trump suit
T13 -14-14-14-14 .... Lucca Tarocchi with 13 trumps and totally 69 cards ... the difference to the JvR-deck are just 4 added cards, 4 Queens
T14 -14-14-14-14 .... 5x14-deck with 14 trumps and totally 70 cards ... the difference to the Lucca Tarocchi is just one trump more

This is an overview from the Regesten, what emperor Charles IV made at a specific time in Lucca in 1369 ...
Image


There is trouble in Pisa and Charles IV solves the situation with military actions and making Lucca "reichunmittelbar", which means independent. This is done at 8th of April 1369, a Sunday after Easter. This "Sunday after Easter" becomes a day of Independence, which is still celebrated in Lucca till today, though Lucca lost its independence in 1799.
Lucca In the Year 1369
Italians have long memories, especially when it comes to historic events and rivalries. The Lucchese are no exception. Each spring they celebrate several long-ago events - World War II Liberation Day and the feast of Santa Zita, for starters. One unique local celebration recalls the year 1369, when the city of Lucca gained its liberty from its most hated rival - Pisa (not by war, but by declaration of the Emperor Charles IV, in exchange for a large sum of money). Today’s rivalry with Pisa mostly involves soccer and the claim to who has the best city to visit or live in, but in 1369, achieving freedom from domination by a rival city state was huge. After that, Lucca fought hard to maintain its independence from all rivals, especially Pisa and Florence,
https://www.twopartsitaly.com/blog/2019/5/5/1369

In the Regesten-picture appears for the 16th of April the name Antelminelli. Roland Antelminelli is identical to Orlando Antelminelli, whom Andrea Vitali takes as the father of Prince Fibbia, who according a picture of c1630 invented the Tarocchino Bolognese.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Hello! - and kind question for help w.r.t. the etymology of tarot

#38
Huck wrote:
25 Mar 2021, 02:31
Perhaps Richter would be interested, when he hears, that his thesis was discussed here in this forum. We also discuss occasionally topics outside of Tarot, perhaps the IPCS members don't know this.
I found Jonas Richter at his website and contacted him.
https://gespiele.hypotheses.org/author/gespiele
He has a strong interest in old games and he's expert in Mittelhochdeutsch (German spoken between 1050 and 1350 in the upper and middlegerman regions). He has an astonishing big note collection to the game Karnöffel, which impressed me. I've made one myself, but I think his is in many aspects better.
A further text is added to the discussion:
Nördlinger Stadtrechte des Mittelalters. Bearb. v. Karl Otto Müller. München 1933. (Bayerische Rechtsquellen 2)
https://drw-www.adw.uni-heidelberg.de/d ... blaettere=>
"Karneffeln" is mentioned at page 86
Image
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Hello! - and kind question for help w.r.t. the etymology of tarot

#39
Dear Huck and dear mikeh,

sorry for responding so late, I first wanted to finish first the post(s) on the etymology of Karnöffel = carneval as an event-situation in the game --and not as a depiction of a person as an Unter-- (viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1033&p=23630#p23630).

Now I can come back to this thread. There I read
mikeh wrote: What we need is a German version of the younger Pratesi, someone who can go and actually be permitted to look at the Nördlingen records.
Huck wrote:
24 Mar 2021, 04:43
[...]

Yes, a German Pratesi would be nice.
[...]
and as a new-comer to the field, it seems to me that you look for the impossible:

a German version of the younger Pratesi is simple something impossible, since Pratesi seems to be --to my humble eyes-- a Genius of its own. You will never find someone who could be "a version of" him.

However, if you look for a quite young German professor in a mechanical department (as Pratesi was) at a renowned university at the southern part of Germany, I know someone: I am discussing the issues in this forum with him quite lately. Hence, if the mandate is clear --with that I mean: the questions to be answered are clear--, I can try to convince him to go to Nördlingen and to see the archives, if he is permitted and time permits (more difficult will be to convince his wife..).

Re: Hello! - and kind question for help w.r.t. the etymology of tarot

#40
For the case of "Karnöffel in Nördlingen" one first has to understand the arguments of Jonas Richter, who at the moment has only limited time. This shall be better in the second half of April, as he had told me. For the moment one can study the 7 sources ... all collected by myself at ...
viewtopic.php?t=345&p=23637#p23562
Especially important is the last part published in 1933.
https://drw-www.adw.uni-heidelberg.de/d ... blaettere=

There it might be of interest to understand the complete book, not only page 86.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

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