Re: Hello! - and kind question for help w.r.t. the etymology of tarot

#21
vh0610 wrote:
16 Mar 2021, 21:00
...
Huck wrote:
15 Mar 2021, 21:16
All, what I have in this category, is to some degree "insecure". "Insecure" does not mean that it is "wrong". A lot of insecure notes, however, can get a high degree of plausibility. [..]
It is very interesting to me and your hypothesis or opinion might be true (at least I do see a clear line of thought which seems to me very plausible).

I have a meta-question: how does the present community of scholars does handle such non-mainstream ideas? Are they heavily discussed with all the knowledge at the table and then valued one against the other? How does this community come to see an opinion more likely to be true or less likely to be true?
There is not much reaction, beside the engagement of Franco Pratesi, who wrote a few articles. ... :-) .. but Franco also had not much enthusiasm for the theme. I persecute it from time to time, and have occasionally little successes. For the moment it looks, that I've detected something after long patience. It contributes to the 5x14-theory, but for the moment I'm the only one, who believes this. Well, that's a common state, I'm used to it.

Here is a short list till the events in Lucca:
1309 The soldiers of Heinrich of Kärnten (Bohemian for a short time) shall have introduced dice games to Bohemia. In later chronicles also playing cards are mentioned. Likely this was a later addition.

1309 Siegfried von Feuchtwangen. Statutes of the knight order (Marienburg) by Siegfried von Feuchtwangen. Prohibition for the knights. Considered to be a later forgery (first half of 15th century) But it means, that the knigth order took it as a truth, that playing card existed in 1309

1324-30 Werner von Orseln. Similar to 1309 Siegfried von Feuchtwangen, prohibition and forgery.

Before 1340: The Hübsch report mentions, that Polish nobility used playing cards.
1340: The Hübsch report notes, that playing cards are known in Bohemia.
.... Hübsch-report: Playing Cards are imported to Prague from the city of Nuremberg
.... Hübsch report: Card-playing is considered by emperor Charles IV a game of skill, not a game of luck
.... Hübsch report: A playing card producer of Nuremberg, Jonathan Kreysel, moves to Prague in 1354. Before there is no evidence for card production in Prague.
The Hübsch report was written in 1849 in Prague. It was written about old trade in Bohemia till the year 1400, it's not the common playing card literature. Hübsch found his material probably mainly in old archives of Prague.

1350: A grand-daughter of Boleslaw III of Brieg marries Albrecht, a son of the former emperor Ludwig IV the Bavarian. Albrecht I. von Bayern-Straubing is later suspected to have played with cards, Boleslaw was accompanied by a similar suspicion (3 card players killed by a lightning in 1303 in Brieg).

1353: An archbishop of Prague prohibited card playing for the clergy. The extant text is from the begin of 15th century, so it's insecure.

1362/65: A Dutch playing card researcher, Gilles Dionysius Jacobus Schotel, found during 19th century archive material, according which Albrecht I. von Bayern-Straubing and Jan van Blois played with cards.They also made 2 journeys to the German knight order in Marienburg. Unluckily Schotel, similar to Hübsch, left no clear line to the relevant documents.

1365/67: Emperor Charles IV made in 1365 a journey to Arles. On this journey his entourage stayed some time in the city of Bern. Two years later (1367) the "Kartenspil" is prohibited in Bern (according a document, which was made as a copy c1395). This gives reason to suspect, that Charles IV distributed occasionally playing cards during his journeys.

1368/69: Emperor Charles IV made his 3rd journey to Italy. The journey lasted 16 months. 6 months totally were spend in the region Lucca-Pisa. In this time Lucca became an independent republic (1969, April 8), the military of Charles helped against a domination of Pisa. Charles finally got 100.000 ducats for this. It was a good opportunity to spread some playing cards in Lucca.
Lucca became known for decks in 18th century, which had a strange game structure: 13 trumps, and 4x14 suitsystem. The 13 trumps were a Fool, the trumps 9-15 of a Minchiate game and the 5 not-numbered trumps on the position 36-40 in a Michiate game. So this deck was rather similar to the 5x14 Trionfi deck ... in structure, not in the choice of cards, but in the number of cards. The 5x14 deck had 70 cards, the Lucca-deck had 69 cards.

If one goes to the idea, how the 5x14 game was played, one might suggest 1+2+3+4 = 10 points for each suit, 3x4 points for Fool, highest trump and lowest trump and 17 points for 17 possible tricks in a game with 4 persons (4x17=68). This would make 4x10 + 12 + 17 = 69 points to distribute in the game for the 5x14 deck and the Lucca-Tarocchi and one card (for the Lucca Tarocchi) or 2 cards (5x14-deck), which can serve as Blinde, or Skat or whatever the expression is in the relevant culture.

This is not all ...
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Hello! - and kind question for help w.r.t. the etymology of tarot

#22
vh0610 wrote:
vh0610 wrote: 1455
Molitors Würfellosbuch mentions, dass mit "lützel Augen", small cards, im "wildem Carnöffelspyle" a win could be made

Hence, we have a proof in the literature, that for the card game Karnoeffel, the points of the cards where also called "eyes" and hence the "eyes" of the dice was transferred to the "eyes" of cards. May I ask if anyone has the copy of the respective page, in order to determine whether the "lützel Augen" are small cards or already points as in a point-trick-taking game? However, even if the small cards are meant: "eyes" are points on cards. And that there is a very probable relation between Karnoeffel and Tarot (over the imperatori cards) is discussed in http://trionfi.com/0/c/, hence it seems to me very probable that also the points of cards in Northern Italy were called "occhi" (as still today the "occhi" of dices).
What do you think about it?
https://kaisern.flow-akademie.ch/texte/ ... -Sachs.pdf
That's a little bit corrupted in the text.
Molitor is Bollstatter, who wrote a collection of Losbüchern in the course of 20 years. A Losbuch could have something to do with playing cards, but mostly not. A Würfellosbuch is a Losbuch with dice. Karnöffel is a card game.

You will have a lot to do, if you will solve this question.
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=663&hilit=bollstatter
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=663&p=18365&hilit= ... ter#p18365

I don't mind, that the points on dice are called Augen in Deutschland. I think also, that some Germans address card game points as Augen. However, if you see the terminus Augen in the context of the Go game, then it means something different.
For Karnöffel there are various rules to consider.

Added: I asked Franco, who once claimed, that he knows 7 languages. And with some security he's very competent with older Italian languages.
Me: "Augen" in German can be used for dice results. Augen for points in a card game I've heard in practical use, but it's not so common. I didn't find it in the Grimm Wörterbuch. "Augen" in the Go game are clearly different, they are not points.
What about "Occhi" or "Ochi" in Italy?
Franco: I never heard the Italian word OCCHI (and its meaning) used in the context of either board or card games.
A connection of tarocco with Arab sources (independent of occhi however!) has been suggested more than once. A supporting fact could be that the commonest use of the word is here for tarocchi oranges, coming from Sicily, where Arab had been the mother-tongue for centuries.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Hello! - and kind question for help w.r.t. the etymology of tarot

#23
Many thanks, Huck, that you even asked Franco [Pratesi, I presume, what an honour!] w.r.t the "eyes" in card games
Huck wrote:
17 Mar 2021, 22:24
Added: I asked Franco, who once claimed, that he knows 7 languages. And with some security he's very competent with older Italian languages.
Me: "Augen" in German can be used for dice results. Augen for points in a card game I've heard in practical use, but it's not so common. I didn't find it in the Grimm Wörterbuch. "Augen" in the Go game are clearly different, they are not points.
What about "Occhi" or "Ochi" in Italy?
Franco: I never heard the Italian word OCCHI (and its meaning) used in the context of either board or card games.
A connection of tarocco with Arab sources (independent of occhi however!) has been suggested more than once. A supporting fact could be that the commonest use of the word is here for tarocchi oranges, coming from Sicily, where Arab had been the mother-tongue for centuries.
[/quote]

Evidently, me being German, perhaps my transfer trom the German world of cards, which you affirm
Huck wrote:
17 Mar 2021, 22:24
I think also, that some Germans address card game points as Augen.
to the Italian world of cards was too far going. It came from the fact, that there seems -at least for a new-comer as I am-- to be a relation of Karnöffel and trionfi/tarocchi at least in the gameplay that there are trumps as "emperor" and "pope", and I thought to have read somewhere that "Karnöffel" somehow influenced the trump structure of trionfi/tarocchi (that "Karnöffel" is a card game I knew already - now I have to read your new post in the Researchers Corner). If I remember correctly, this could have happened by the back-travelling people visiting the council of Constance (1414-1418).

If I may ask: Is that relation between Karnöffel to trionfi/tarocchi already clarified amongst scholars? (If the answer is in your new Karnöffel post, I will find it there).

Furthermore, you pointed out
Huck wrote:
17 Mar 2021, 22:24
https://kaisern.flow-akademie.ch/texte/ ... -Sachs.pdf
That's a little bit corrupted in the text.
Molitor is Bollstatter, who wrote a collection of Losbüchern in the course of 20 years. A Losbuch could have something to do with playing cards, but mostly not. A Würfellosbuch is a Losbuch with dice. Karnöffel is a card game.
When reading this on https://kaisern.flow-akademie.ch/texte/ ... -Sachs.pdf I was also wondering how the card game Karnöffel gets into a book on dices. Why is this reference then cited quite often? Do you know who was the first citing it?

I am asking since I fear that you are fully right with
Huck wrote:
17 Mar 2021, 22:24
You will have a lot to do, if you will solve this question.
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=663&hilit=bollstatter
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=663&p=18365&hilit= ... ter#p18365
-- I had a first look, the book is really beautiful, but very hard to read (and I will not be able to spend the time needed for deciphering the whole book for finding the relevant passage).


Added post scriptum:

A quick research on the Internet reveals that on https://context.reverso.net/traduzione/ ... anti+occhi the first entry on the italian side is

Quanti occhi sono raffigurati in un mazzo di carte? -> How many eyes are there on cards in a deck?

Now I don't know what to do with it - does it confirm that there are italians calling points on cards "eyes"? Are the "eyes" meant there the eyes of the depicted persons? Does someone can help me with this? Where is my error?

Re: Hello! - and kind question for help w.r.t. the etymology of tarot

#24
Thanks a lot, also for your interesting elaboration
Huck wrote:
17 Mar 2021, 21:47
[...]

There is not much reaction, beside the engagement of Franco Pratesi, who wrote a few articles. ... :-) .. but Franco also had not much enthusiasm for the theme. I persecute it from time to time, and have occasionally little successes. For the moment it looks, that I've detected something after long patience. It contributes to the 5x14-theory, but for the moment I'm the only one, who believes this. Well, that's a common state, I'm used to it.

[...]

If one goes to the idea, how the 5x14 game was played, one might suggest 1+2+3+4 = 10 points for each suit, 3x4 points for Fool, highest trump and lowest trump and 17 points for 17 possible tricks in a game with 4 persons (4x17=68). This would make 4x10 + 12 + 17 = 69 points to distribute in the game for the 5x14 deck and the Lucca-Tarocchi and one card (for the Lucca Tarocchi) or 2 cards (5x14-deck), which can serve as Blinde, or Skat or whatever the expression is in the relevant culture.

This is not all ...
If this is not all, at least I am interested in more information...

Re: Hello! - and kind question for help w.r.t. the etymology of tarot

#25
vh0610 wrote:
22 Mar 2021, 21:15
Added post scriptum:

A quick research on the Internet reveals that on https://context.reverso.net/traduzione/ ... anti+occhi the first entry on the italian side is

Quanti occhi sono raffigurati in un mazzo di carte? -> How many eyes are there on cards in a deck?

Now I don't know what to do with it - does it confirm that there are italians calling points on cards "eyes"? Are the "eyes" meant there the eyes of the depicted persons? Does someone can help me with this? Where is my error?
I had a similar finding in the English world ...
There somebody answered the question with "12 court cards have 24 eyes, but on 3 of the 12 faces one can see only one eye, so the answer is 24-3=21" or similar. I cannot link to the page, cause I didn't make a note about it. This runs in the category "funny questions". The author had various stupid questions of this kind.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Hello! - and kind question for help w.r.t. the etymology of tarot

#26
Karnöffel was first noted 1427 in Nördlingen. As this is a relative short time before the first note about Trionfi decks (or similar names like ludus triumphorum) the idea of an influence between both games is plausible.
In a later time Karnöffel was also addressed as Kaisern or Kaiserspiel. Franceschini likely found the Imperatori card notes of Ferrara1423.

http://trionfi.com/imperatori-cards-ferrara-1423
"1423, on the day 9 October Giovanni Bianchini to have for one pack of cards of VIII Emperors gilded, which was brought from Florence for Milady Marchesana (Parisina d'Este), which Zoesi * (name of the servant) servant of said Lady had; priced 7 florins, new, and for expenses (of the transport) from Florence to Ferrara 6 Bolognese soldi; in all valued
….. L. XIIII.VI. Bolognese

I Giovanni Bianchini wrote it on the above-written day."
Franco Pratesi once expressed the opinion, that Kaiserspiel and Imperatori game had a relation and were both possibly a similar or the same game.
My idea: The 8 very expensive cards of Ferrara/Florence might have been added to a normal game with 52 cards, which would be then a similar deck as the 60 cards of a John-of-Rheinfelden-deck and also similar to the construction of the Michelino deck (likely also with 60 cards).
Generally the council of Constance (1415-1418) is under suspicion to have been a time/location with much card playing, which then spread as a card playing fashion in Northern Italy, which was then answered in Italy by an intensive anti-card-playing-fight by San Bernardino, which started 1417.
Nördlingen, where the name Karnöffel appeared first in 1427, was favoured by Emperor Sigismund, who played a big role durig the council. Nördlingen developed by this sponsorship. Nördlingen is not far from Constance and just in 1427 the people started to build a large church. In this time (c1422) developed also the Quaternionensystem, which has much similarity to a card deck, and Sigismund was the son of emperor Charles IV and already Charles IV possibly distributed playing cards.
Image

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=646&p=9671&hilit=quaterionen#p9671

A first orientation, what the rules might have been, gives the Mysner poem in the 1450s.
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=416&hilit=mysner
One point is clear. The early Karnöffel variant is different from the next generation. The emperor is a single card, there are not 4 emperors as later. And when there are 4 emperors then, they are occasionally the numbers 2-3-4-5 of a suit or the 4 banners (the 10s). And generally there are different variants.
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1033#p15395
One shouldn't trust reconstructions.
Similar to Doppelkopf today, there was probably the condition, that each group of persons had their own rules. If you know the rules of Hinter-Tupfingen you don''t know the rules of Vorder-Tupfingen, not to forget the rules of Tupfingen. There were no rule-books (this developed 17th century) and there was no Skatverband, who designed the rules and organized tournaments (this happened 19th century).
Today it's so: if 4 Doppelkopfplayers agree to have some games and they never played together, they need their 5-10 minutes to find their rules. Doppelkopf is complex and has many special rules. 40 years a Doppelkopf-Verband was founded to find the perfect rules ...
Die Mitgliederentwicklung gestaltete sich bis 1997 sehr positiv. Aus knappen 400 Mitgliedern im Jahr 1982 konnte sich die Zahl bis 1997 fast verfünffachen. Heute gehören dem Verband knapp 1200 Spieler an.
So there were 400, then 2000 and then 1200. I would estimate the number of persons who learned the game once to a few millions. And those, who regularely play a little bit to at least hundert thousands. Naturally this activity suffers considerably in Corona times. The players, who make a sport out of it with fixed rules, is small against it.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Hello! - and kind question for help w.r.t. the etymology of tarot

#27
Recent research by Jonas Richter suggests that the Nördlingen reference to Karnöffel in 1426 is mythical, a conflation of references from secondary sources, which Schreiber brought together.

The next earliest is in 1446. You'll have to be a member of IPCS to read the information on their forum, I don't have the right to just copy and paste someone else's hard won research.

I think I can give the sources that misled Schreiber, though.

Daniel Eberhardt Beyschlag, Versuch einer Schulgeschichte der Reichsstadt Nördlingen, 1795 -

"Karnüflen" bottom line of page 14 -
https://books.google.de/books?id=KX9PAA ... &q&f=false

Johann Müller's Merkwürdigkeiten der Stadt Nördlingen, 1824. The structure of this paragraph can suggest that all of those names, including "Karmüflen," come from that 1426 document.

https://books.google.fr/books?id=1UBEAA ... 22&f=false
Image

Re: Hello! - and kind question for help w.r.t. the etymology of tarot

#28
My own view is that card games which break the ranking rules of court cards, or pip cards, like making the ace or another number high, are already assumed by Filippo Maria's 1420 decree about the "old and correct way" to play cards, as well as by John of Rheinfelden's statement about how some games make a common person higher than the nobles.

So Karnöffel per se is not necessary to any theory of Tarot's originating concepts.
Image

Re: Hello! - and kind question for help w.r.t. the etymology of tarot

#29
Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:
23 Mar 2021, 09:43
Daniel Eberhardt Beyschlag, Versuch einer Schulgeschichte der Reichsstadt Nördlingen, 1795 -

"Karnüflen" bottom line of page 14 -
https://books.google.de/books?id=KX9PAA ... &q&f=false

Johann Müller's Merkwürdigkeiten der Stadt Nördlingen, 1824. The structure of this paragraph can suggest that all of those names, including "Karmüflen," come from that 1426 document.

https://books.google.fr/books?id=1UBEAA ... 22&f=false
Thanks for the info.
Hm. I guess, this is not enough to put the passage of 1426 in doubt. This are 2 dfferent descriptions, one is a Zunftordnung (order of a guild) and the other an allowance for a festivity.
Some words are identical (Passen in Thurm, Karnöffel, Kurzweil) but this can have various reasons. Did the author see the original documents or are these lost?
In der Meßzeit gab es einen eigenen Platzmeister mit 12 Platzknechten 1426 angestellt, welche auf die Spiele obacht geben mußten. Beim jährlichen Rechnungsmahl wurde den Rathherren erlaubt zu spielen zum Kurzweil, als Bassen im Thurn, Karmüflen mit Hölzlein, wo der Platzmeister das Scholtergeld erhielt.
My translation:
In the Meßzeit (Nördlingen had a Messe for 2 weeks around Pentecost) there was installed a placemaster with 12 placeservants in 1426, which had to control the games. In the yearly "Rechnungsmahl"(a dinner accompanying a yearly action about finances) the Rathsherren (city rulers) were allowed to play for Kurzweil (for amusement) "Bassen in Thurm" (or Passen, in Thurn, so one or two different games), Karnöffel with sticks of wood (eventually not for money), where the placemaster got the Scholtergeld (possibly the gaming resulted in the payment of some money, but the money was given to the placemaster for his service during the Meßzeit.)
The Messe in Nördlingen was first noted in 1219. It seems, that the yearly procedure was updated in 1426 cause of some improvement in Nördlingen. In the text the building of a Trinkstube in 1419 is noted (page 47, directly before the other sentence).
Auf der 1419 erbauten neuen Trinkstube wurde eine Stubengesellschaft errichtet, wo ehrbaren Leuten ein Kartenspiel in Brett- und Schachspiel um 1 oder 2 Heller zu drei Both erlaubt wurde.
The Trinkstube (a sort of pub) is controlled by a Stubengesellschaft, and it serves for card playing, board games and chess. The Trinkstube had been built with wood and was damaged in 1469. A new building replaced the old with a similar function. Foreign people had free access. The function of the building was for the promotion of businesses.
Wiki: 1327 wurde der heute noch bestehende Mauerring gebaut, mit dem die ummauerte Stadtfläche auf das Vierfache anwuchs. 1427 begann der Bau der St.-Georgs-Kirche.
The city wall was enlarged in 1327. The city territory became 4 times of that, what it had been before. In 1427 a new church building is started. Nördlingen expanded.
In 1418 ...
Mit der wachsenden Ausbreitung der Geldwirtschaft und Zurückdrängung der Naturalwirtschaft im späteren
Mittelalter einerseits und dem steigenden Verkehr andererseits, genügte die alte zeitweise erfolgte Ausprägung
nicht mehr und so entsprach es einem natürlichen Bedürfnis, wenn König Sigmund ab 1418 einige dauernde
Reichsmünzstätten (Frankfurt, Nördlingen, Basel und Dortmund) errichtete.
.... a Münzstätte is founded in Nördlingen. That's another major improvement. Nördlingen expands.
https://www.coingallery.de/Texte/PDF/Noerdlingen.pdf
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Hello! - and kind question for help w.r.t. the etymology of tarot

#30
It would certainly seem that the Schreiber interpretation of the passage in Müller is the most reasonable. However it is not certain. Richter observes, "The surrounding context shows that Müller often combines details from various sources spanning a century: On a single page he mentions, in order of his text, details from 1442, 1519, 1443, 1419, and 1426. (Müller 1824: 47)." I am not sure that this is a fair comparison, since these latter references are clearly separated from one another.

It is also not certain, even if the interpretation is correct, that Müller is accurate, as opposed to making an assumption based on other years, or mixing up one year's report with that of a different year, or basing himself on a dubious source. He gives no source.

Another reason Richter gives that would apply in either case - the interpretation of Müller being wrong, or his being unreliable - is another article, presumably by Müller (it says M----r), in 1817, at
https://books.google.de/books?id=HTVTAA ... en&f=false

Here Müller has a very similar list of games, but for the year 1502.
Aus dem Innhalt des Zucht-Gesetzes vom Jahr 1502 findet man folgende Spiele: Bassen, Im Thurn, Karnüflen, mit Hölzlen, Eins und hundert etc. die in Wirthshäusern verboten wurden.
The problem is with the game "mit Hölzlen", which is unique to Müller. Beyschlag in 1795 had given a similar list, for the year 1502:
Aus einer erneuten Zuchtordnung von 1502. lernt man außer dem Bretspiel den Würfeln und Kugeln, die man in der Stadt und ain Meile auswärts um Geld verboth, nachfolgende zur Kurzweil um einen Heller auf drey Both erlaubte Kartenspiele kenen: Bassen, In Thurm, Karnüflen, ains und hundert. Dabey mußten aber alle Vor- und Nach-Both unterbleiben, und das Schanzen war gänzlich untersagt.
But there is no "mit Hölzlen". Also, Richter says (Feb. 11 2021 post), the word is not in the index of K.O. Müller's edition of the Nördlingen law sources. All K.O. Muller has is a similar list to that of Beyshlag, now for the year 1510. So the suspicion is that Müller's list in 1824 comes from an unknown source, perhaps a dubious one, and perhaps in 1502 rather than 1426.

Richter concludes, "It's possible that there actually is a document of that date listing Karnöffeln and other games, but right now, we simply don't have enough to be sure."

It is also possible that the issue could be resolved by checking the archives. Richter says (posting on 12 Feb 2021), "About two years ago I tried to reach a conclusion but realized it would be better to visit the Nördlingen archive and and check what records there are which are not edited by K.O. Müller. I haven't gotten round to that yet." He adds (in his 11 Feb post) that " It might be somewhere in the council protocols/proceedings (not sure if there's a specific English term for these) which are not edited AFAIK."

I do not know what "AFAIK" means.

What we need is a German version of the younger Pratesi, someone who can go and actually be permitted to look at the Nördlingen records.

And yes, people really should join the IPCS. It's not expensive, about 16 US dollars a year, if I remember correctly. And also read their forum (which I have not been doing!). Richter's posts are terse but complex, and I'm not sure any paraphrase by us can do it justice.

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