Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

Huck wrote:
25 Jul 2020, 01:55
It's unusual, when a list starts at the bottom of a page.
It's not a "list," it's a genealogy or lineage, growing upward. ... usbook.jpg ... medium.jpg

It is 60 figures, starting with Jupiter as 1 and Filippo Maria as 60. Sacco associates this with the sixty generations from Adam to the Virgin Mary.

It is the same lineage used by Castelletto in 1402, except that Sacco's artist adds the monster, perhaps Saturn, at the bottom, and omits Anchises and Giovanni Maria. Castelletto also has 60 generations starting with Jupiter. Of course you count Anchises and Venus as a single generation, and for Castelletto, Giovanni Maria and Filippo Maria are a single generation.

Please note that I miscounted in the genealogy you use at - I missed number 57. Use this one instead -

2. Anchises------------Venus
3. Eneas Rex
4. Ascanius Rex
5. Anglus Primus Rex
6. Anlgus Iunior Rex
7. Ascanius Rex (Rex Angler e Mediolani)
8. Abida Rex
9. Sisoch Rex
10. Iulus Rex
11. Pucentius Rex
12. Elimach Rex
13. Gemebundus Rex
14. Albanicus Rex
15. Astatius Rex
16. Fallaramundus Rex
17. Elimach Rex
18. Rechius Rex
19. Bellonesus Rex
20. Bruniscendus Rex
21. Briennius Rex
22. Bruniscendus Rex
23. Agates Rex
24. Rutilaus Rex
25. Fallaramundus Rex
26. Bridomarus Rex
27. Lutius Rex (time of Pompey and Caesar)
28. Ubertus Vicecomes
29. Maximianus Rex (time of Pope Gelasius and King Theodoric)
30. Milo Rex
31. Rolandus Rex
32. Milo Rex
33. Alienus Rex
34. Galvaneus Comes
35. Perideus Rex
36. Rachis Rex
37. Agistulfus Rex
38. Desiderius Rex
39. Bernardus Comes
40. Guido Comes
41. Berengarius Imperator
42. Ugo Imperator
43. Berengarius Imperator
44. Adebertus Imperator
45. Atto Comes
46. Fulcus Comes
47. Obito Comes
48. Fatius Comes
49. Heriprandus Vicecomes (Eriprandus, Vicecomes=Visconti)
50. Otto Vicecomes
51. Andreas Vicecomes
52. Galvaneus Vicecomes
53. Ubertus Vicecomes
54. Obizo Vicecomes (Obizzo)
55. Tibaldus Vicecomes (Teobald, Theobald)
56. Matheus Vicecomes (Matteo)
57. Stephanus Vicecomes (Stefano)
58. Galeas Vicecomes (Galeazzo)
59. Iohannes Galeas Dux (Gian Galeazzo)
60a. Iohannes Maria Anglus Dux Mediolani (Milan) et Comes Anglie
60b. Philippus Maria Comes Papie (Pavia)

The image in this post - viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1422&p=22000&hilit=abida#p22000 - is also lacking 57 in Castelletto. But the biblical one is good.

Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:
25 Jul 2020, 09:32
It's not a "list," it's a genealogy or lineage, growing upward.
... :-) .... A list can contain a genealogy or a lineage or soccer teams or tarot cards or the emperors of China or whatever.
The other genealogy list with the nearly the same content was not growing upward, but falling downward.

Venus in black reminds me on a black madonna.
Most old Black Madonnas have appeared in France, but there were also some in Italy though not very much in the Lombardy region.

Re: Dark-skinned Venus, Aeneas' red hair

Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:
23 Jul 2020, 18:01

Bueno de Mesquita does not note any other examples of the generalization. Aeneas, just above Venus in the genealogy, is shown with red hair. Is this trying to show that the Visconti inherited their "reddish hair" from Venus and Aeneas?

But more striking in the genealogy is Venus' dark complexion, and vibrant blond hair.

Does anyone know of medieval precedent for a black Venus?

Red hair first. I'm guessing red is the result of hair lightening techniques.

Of relevance from an old post of mine:
Blonde hair as fashionable goes back to the Trecento Italian aping of French courtly tradition (why most court figures are inevitably blonde). See Charles Dempsey's first chapter - "Courtly Lyric: Simone Martini, French Courtly Lyric, and the Vernacular" - in his The Early Renaissance and Vernacular Culture (Harvard: 2012).
Equally valuable in this context, this article put out by the Walters Museum - "Becoming a Blond in Renaissance Italy", ... -at-w-748/
By 1256 the Latin language barrier started to fall. Beatrice of Savoy [a sure connection to Milan], wife of Raymond Berengarius, count of Provence, commissioned their court physician, Aldobrandino of Siena, to write, in French, the Régime du Corps—an expanded compilation of passages lifted from Tacuinum Sanitatis [definitely Milan] and a variety of other medical sources, including Isaac Judaeus, Avicenna, Rhazes, Constantinus Africanus, and Ali Abbas. The Régime du Corps covers a wide array of topics including Galen’s precepts, information on the properties of seventy-three different foods, advice on pregnancy and the care of newborns, and a discussion of physiognomy and body care; a section devoted to hair includes a passage on hair lightening.[14]

[a bit later but obviously drawing on earlier texts]
Within this brief discussion, the Walters’ Treatise on Cosmetics can be usefully compared with other contemporaneous cosmetic manuscripts: the Experimenti compiled by Caterina Sforza (1463?–1509), Countess of Forli and Lady of Imola,[19]and the anonymous Ricettario Galante compiled between 1500 and 1520.[20]

The Experimenti is a wide-ranging compilation of more than four hundred recipes for “curing headache, fever, syphilis, and epilepsy; lightening the hair or improving the skin; treating infertility, making poisons and panaceas; and producing alchemical gems and gold.”[21] Many recipes require distillation, including two for blonding.[22] Sforza collected recipes from numerous correspondents over many years, which might account for the compilation’s haphazard organization. Recipes are composed in both Latin and Italian; Sforza ensured the secrecy of some recipes by writing them in code (it is therefore likely that only she could quickly locate specific items).[23] Ingredient quantities are often vague or even missing altogether, perhaps due to oversights by her correspondents.

[finally the recipe "outcomes" from the latter Ricettario source]
Recipe A shifted both samples one-half level lighter, and Recipe B, one level lighter (fig. 9). The results are most evident on the tips of the hair, where it was least compacted. While the change is barely noticeable on a gray scale, it is important tonally. When hair lightens, warm tones (i.e., red, orange, and yellow) automatically appear, making the hair seem more “golden,” the medieval and Renaissance ideal.

Naturally Venus as the exemplar of beauty is blonde, but why dark-skinned? Pure guess here, but given the highly symbolic nature of the genealogy, is it possible the painter was instructed to make sure the higher Venus Urania, versus the base/terrestrial Venus, was indicated? Perhaps the dark (blue?) color was to indicate the color of the heavens, as in the celestial background of Venus depicted for Pizan c. 1410:


The classical roots of Venus Urania/Caelestis:

According to Plato, there are two Aphrodites, "the elder, having no mother, who is called the heavenly Aphrodite—she is the daughter of Uranus; the younger, who is the daughter of Zeus and Dione—her we call common." The same distinction is found in Xenophon's Symposium, although the author is doubtful whether there are two goddesses, or whether Urania and Pandemos are two names for the same goddess, just as Zeus, although one and the same, has many titles; but in any case, he says, the ritual of Urania is purer, more serious, than that of Pandemos.
From the middle Imperial period, the title Caelestis, "Heavenly" or "Celestial" is attached to several goddesses embodying aspects of a single, supreme Heavenly Goddess. The Dea Caelestis was identified with the constellation Virgo ("The Virgin"), who holds the divine balance of justice [and of course Mary is blonde under French influence]. In the Metamorphoses of Apuleius,[3] the protagonist Lucius prays to the Hellenistic Egyptian goddess Isis as Regina Caeli, "Queen of Heaven", who is said to manifest also as Ceres, "the original nurturing parent"; Heavenly Venus (Venus Caelestis); the "sister of Phoebus", that is, Diana or Artemis as she is worshipped at Ephesus; or Proserpina as the triple goddess of the underworld. Juno Caelestis was the Romanised form of the Carthaginian Tanit.[4]

Grammatically, the form Caelestis can also be a masculine word, but the equivalent function for a male deity is usually expressed through syncretization with Caelus, as in Caelus Aeternus Iuppiter, "Jupiter the Eternal Sky." (Wiki)

The only depiction of mythical subjects in blue/dark skin I can think of are Aeolus' wind gods, often thought of as intermediary between the heavens and earth, and indeed, the upper left one is set amongst the stars here in this Apollonio di Giovanni cassone (and let's not forget Venus fell to the sea through the realm of the wind gods): ... 282%29.jpg

I would tend to think of Venus's dark blue coloring in this context as "celestial grace" with which the entire genealogy is blessed (the holy ghost/radiant dove impresa paralleling that thought).

Wind gods, Apollonia's Ulysses cassone.JPG
(85.34 KiB) Not downloaded yet

Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

According to Plato, there are two Aphrodites, "the elder, having no mother, who is called the heavenly Aphrodite—she is the daughter of Uranus; the younger, who is the daughter of Zeus and Dione—her we call common."
The problem here is that the Visconti ancestor, "wife" of Anchises and mother of Aeneas, is the third Venus, the daughter of Jupiter, told in Genealogia deorum gentilium XI, iv. This book hasn't been published by Jon Solomon yet, so, for translations, we have to use the French of 1498 or the Italian of 1547, both excellent.

But to get to the point, the text there doesn't mention her skin color, although it does allude to her resplendent hair. Boccaccio quotes the first line of a poem of Claudian, the Epithalamium of Honorius and Maria, 99 (here translation Maurice Platnauer, 1922 for Loeb, third result of "venus" search, page 249 (250) scrolled down on right side of margin. Latin is linked at head of paragraph - ... mium*.html )

Cesariem tum forte Venus subnixa corusco fingebat solio.
"Venus was seated on her glittering throne, tiring her hair." ("tiring" is apparently an archaic word meaning "attiring," to dress or fix the head or hair, especially with a headdress).

Giuseppe Bertussi, 1547, folio 192 -
"Venere alhora, i bei crin d'oro avolti,"
Thus Venus, dressing her beautiful golden hair... ... 1/mode/2up

Venus the Black

Gerard de la Chau, Dissertation sur les attributs de Vénus, 1776.
Nous ne croyons pouvoir mieux placer qu'ici les surnoms de νύμφη, de Migonitis & de Melaenis qui lui sont donnés par Pausanias. Le premier n'a pas besoin d'explication: à l'égard du second, on prétend que sur le rivage qui est vis-à-vis de l'isle de Cranae en Laconie, il y avoit un temple de Vénus, que Pâris avoit fait bâtir après l'enlèvement d'Hélène, pour perpétuer le transports de sa joie & de sa reconnoissance; qu'il donna à cette Vénus l'épithéte de Migonitis, & nomma le territoire Migonion d'un mot qui signifoit l'avanture galant qui s'y étoit passée. Sur cela, il faut s'en rapporter à Pausanias, ainsi que sur l'épithéte de Melaenis qu'il dit avoir été donnée a Vénus, parce que les hommes choisissent préférablement la nuit pour les mystères amoureux, tandis que les autres animaux s'approchent de leurs femelles pendant le jour. Quoi qu'il en soit, la Déesse avoit une petite chapelle en Arcadie, & une autre en Boeotie, où elle étoit honorée sous ce titre. Vénus Melaenis, ou la Noire, avoit aussi un temple dans un fauxbourg de Corinthe; ce fut elle qui apparut en songe à la Courtisane Laïs, pour lui annoncer l'arrivée d'amans fort riches. Sur quoi Bayle fait une assez plaisante réflexion: si le fondement du surnom Melaenis, dit-il, étoit solide, on ne trouveroit pas que Vénus, en tant que Noire, eût dû se montrer en songe à la jeune Laïs, qui n'étoit pas destinée à se piquer de la distinction des jours & des nuits.
We don't think we can place better than here the nicknames of [nymph], Migonitis & Melaenis given to her by Pausanias. The first needs no explanation: with regard to the second, it is claimed that on the shore which is opposite the isle of Cranae in Laconia, there was a temple of Venus, which Paris had built after the abduction of Helen, to perpetuate the transport of his joy and his recognition; that he gave to this Venus the epithet of Migonitis, and named the territory Migonion with a word which signified the gallant adventure which had passed there. On this, one must refer to Pausanias, and also to the epithet of Melaenis which he said was given to Venus, because men prefer night for the mysteries of love, while other animals approach their females during the day. In any case, the Goddess had a small chapel in Arcadia, & another in Boeotia, where she was honoured under this title. Venus Melaenis, or the Black, also had a temple in a fauxbourg of Corinth; it was she who appeared in a dream to the Courtisan Laïs, to announce the arrival of very rich lovers. On which Bayle makes a rather pleasant reflection: if the foundation of the nickname Melaenis, he says, was solid, one would not find that Venus, as Black, should have shown herself in a dream-vision to the young Laïs, who was not destined to pride herself with the distinction of days and nights.

Pausanias, Arcadia

Athenaeus lib. XIII

Translation Isaac Casaubon (p. 588) quoted by Pierre Bayle, Dictionnaire historique et critique par Pierre Bayle, 1740 (5th edition), vol. 3, p. 33.
Huic (Laïdi) cum esset Corinthi, Venus Melaenis sive Nigella dormienti noctu se ostendit, et adventum praenunciavit amatorum qui forent pecuniosissimi, ut memorat Hyperides Actione secundi contra Aristagoram.

Venus the Dark, Venus the Black.

Pausanias, Description of Greece 2. 2. 4 :
"Before the city [of Korinthos] is a grove of cypresses called Kraneon. Here are a precinct of Bellerophontes, a temple of Aphrodite Melainis (the Black), and the grave of Laïs." ... 6/mode/2up

"The Black Aphrodite of Corinth" ... 22&f=false ... rodite.jpg

Re: Venus the black

Melainis oder Melaina (Μελαινίς, Μέλαινα „die Schwarze“) hieß Aphrodite in Korinth[63], in Thespiai[64] und Mantinea, wo die Göttin gemeinsam mit dem Dionysos verehrt wurde. Pausanias bezieht den Namen auf die Schwärze der Nacht, da beim Menschen die Begattungen nicht wie bei den Tieren am Tage geschehen, sondern in der Nacht.[65] Neuerdings wurde die Epiklese als Ausdruck eines chthonischen Aspekts der Liebesgöttin gedeutet, die über die „schwarze Erde“ herrsche.[1] Zu vergleichen ist vielleicht der aus Phaistos belegte Beiname der Skotia (Σκοτία „die Dunkle“). Eine Aphrodite epitymbidia (ἐπιτυμβιδία „die von den Gräbern“) wurde in Delphi mit Trankopfern verehrt und sollte zur Psychomantie verhelfen.[66] Auf einen noch dunkleren Aspekt – den der Rache nehmenden Göttin – nehmen Epiklesen wie androphónos (ἀνδροφόνος „die Männermordende“)[67] und anosía (ἀνοσία „die Unheilige“)[68] Bezug.
↑ 63 Pausanias 2,2,4.
↑ 64 Pausanias 9,27,5.
↑ 65 Pausanias 8,6,5.
↑ 66 Plutarch, Quaestiones Romanae 23; ders., Moralia 269b.
↑ 67 Otto Jessen: Androphonos. In: Paulys Realencyclopädie der classischen Altertumswissenschaft (RE). Band I,2, Stuttgart 1894, Sp. 2169.
↑ 68 Georg Wentzel: Anosia. In: Paulys Realencyclopädie der classischen Altertumswissenschaft (RE). Band I,2, Stuttgart 1894, Sp. 2335. ... odite.html


The following article is about the tree "Cypresse" (English Cupressus; see "C.-Hain"), traditionally used at places for dead persons.
Bei Korinth lag ein C.-Hain mit dem Namen Kraneion, in welchem sich der Tempel der Aphrodite Melainis, d. h. der Dunkeln, befand (Paus. II 2, 4); dieser Beiname soll nach Lajard (S. 225) daran erinnern, dass die orientalische Theologie in derselben Gottheit die Ideen der Nacht und der Zeugung, vereinigte. Auf der Burg von Phlius befand sich ein C.-Hain und ein seit alters in grosser Verehrung stehendes Heiligtum einer Göttin, welche die Phliasier in alter Zeit Ganymeda genannt hatten (Paus. II 13, 3). Lajard (S. 226) vermutet, dass die Ganymeda identisch sei mit der assyrischen Mylitta, weil ihr die C. geweiht gewesen sei und ihr Name Hebe uns nach dem westlichen Asien weise. Denn diesem Religionsgebiet sei die Vorstellung der Griechen, dass Hebe den Nektar in die Schale des Zeus giesse entlehnt; dies bewiesen zwei phoinikische Gemmen, auf welchen die Baltis denselben Dienst dem Baal erweisend dargestellt sei. Aus dem illyrischen Apollonia, einer Colonie Korinths, besitzen wir drei grosse Bronzen mit den Bildnissen des Septimius Severus, der Iulia Domna, und des Geta, auf deren Revers ein viersäuliger, von sieben C. umgebener Tempel mit einer thronenden, aber unbekannten Göttin dargestellt ist (Lajard S. 227 und Taf. VIII 4 mit der Bronze der Iulia Domna). Durch ziemlich weit ausholende Vergleiche sucht Lajard (S. 228f.) zu beweisen, dass diese Göttin wieder die orientalisch-occidentalische Aphrodite sei, die Königin des Himmels, der Erde und der Unterwelt und die zeugende Gottheit. Die vier Säulen stellten die vier Elemente dar. Die inmitten des Tempelgiebels angebrachte Kugel finde sich wieder auf asiatischen Münzen mit dem Tempel der Astarte und erinnere an die Feuerkugel, welche man bei dem Feste der Astarte zu Aphaka im Libanon in den Lüften erscheinen liess (Zosim. I 58, 4). Die beiden C., von welchen die eine zur Rechten, die andere zur Linken des Tempels steht, symbolisieren nach Lajard die Sonne und den Mond wie auf dem erwähnten kleinen syrischen [1928] Votivthron und den Münzen von Perge (s. S. 1918). Die übrigen fünf sich hinter dem Tempel erhebenden C. sind nach ihm die Embleme der fünf von den sieben Planeten, welche die Alten mit Einschluss von Sonne und Mond zählten, wie auch auf Mithramonumenten römischer Zeit die sieben Planeten mitunter durch sieben C. dargestellt sind. Auch noch andere Beweise bringt Lajard für seine Behauptung, dass die Göttin auf den Bronzen von Apollonia die Aphrodite sei. Auf zwei Bronzemünzen aus Sikyon mit dem Bildnis der Plautilla, der Gattin des Caracalla, von denen Lajard (Taf. VII 3) eine abbildet, sieht man auf dem Revers einen viersäuligen Tempel, zu dessen Seiten je eine Henne und eine C. stehen. Er lässt es (S. 233) unentschieden, ob der Tempel dem Asklepios, dem Hermes oder der Aphrodite geweiht gewesen sei, doch macht er auf die beiden Bildsäulen des Asklepios und der Hygieia in dem Tempel des Asklepios zu Titane bei Sikyon aufmerksam, in dessen Peribolos alte C. standen und welcher von dem Enkel des Asklepios, von Alexanor, gegründet sein sollte (Paus. II 11, 5). Hinzuzufügen ist, dass sich auf Kos eine C. befand, zu welcher sich an einem bestimmten Tage die dem Asklepios Geweihten in feierlichem Aufzuge begaben (Ps.-Hippocr. epist. 11, 1). Auch sei an den (o. S. 1915) erwähnten Hain dieses Gottes erinnert. Da sowohl die C. (Geop. XI 4) als auch die in C. verwandelten Töchter des Eteokles Charites genannt wurden (Theocr. XVI 104. Geop. ebd.), so glaubt Lajard (S. 234), dass die Charitinnen als Begleiterinnen der Aphrodite unter der symbolischen Form der C. dargestellt werden konnten. Auch den unter dem Namen Parthenoi um das Grabmal des Alkmaion zu Psophis in Arkadien, wo die Aphrodite von Eryx einen Tempel hatte, stehenden C. (Paus. VIII 24, 2. 6) lassen Lajard (S. 235), Curtius (Pelop. I 400), Murr (a. a. O. 125) und Baudissin (Stud. z. semit. Religionsgesch. II 197) unter Annahme phoinikischen Einflusses eine Verwandlungssage zu Grunde liegen.

Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

Androphonos. In: Paulys Realencyclopädie der classischen Altertumswissenschaft (RE). Band I,2, Stuttgart 1894, Sp. 2169.

Androphonos: That's a man-killing aspect of Mars and Venus

↑ 68 Georg Wentzel: Anosia. In: Paulys Realencyclopädie der classischen Altertumswissenschaft (RE). Band I,2,

Anosia: That's a terminus, which appears together with Androphonos. First androphonos (murder), then becoming innocent again after a great sin (anosia). This seems to have occured in the context of a female person Lais, who was a prostitute, somewhere in Thessalia. So much I get from Vollmer, who doesn't tell much.

It's difficult to get precisely the Pauly page, which one is looking for.

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