Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

#61
:-) ... well, Scipio Caraffa had the idea, that Isabella would be enjoyed about these cards. That doesn't imply, that Scipio Caraffa knew, which decks Isabella already had seen in her life. There might be a big difference between the perspective of Scipio and Isabella's reality, of course.
Rene made book-paintings himself, so a special interest for pictures on playing cards might be part of the family culture.

Trionfi cards might be still rather rare in Italy in the late 1440s. From the available Florentine data we may assume, that they become more popular in the early 1450s.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

#62
mikeh wrote:
30 Oct 2019, 11:11
Scipio is telling Marcello this in 1450.
Actually late 1448 to early 1449, for what it's worth.
I do not see how anything follows about Isabelle's knowledge of trionfi in Naples 1435-1440. I also do not see how you can conclude that she did not have them in Provence. Perhaps she would be happy to get another pack. Perhaps over the years some of the cards of her previous pack got lost or damaged. I think it is safe to infer that such packs were not readily available in 1450 Anjou (yes, another unremarkable conclusion). Also, since Marcello says nothing about the unremarkable triumph pack he is sending her, I would guess that he assumes that she already knows how to play the game. It would even seem that he is assuming that the sumptuous deck he has procured is used to play the same game, even if there are different subjects on the trumps and differently composed suits, since he does not comment on the rules, just the subjects. I also do not think we can infer that her husband wasn't interested in the game. From what I've read, he was just there trying to get Florence's support for his return to Naples and getting the cold shoulder; so he would have had a lot of time on his hands. If she knows the game, perhaps she learned it from her husband, and that he did bring her a pack in 1442 or so. If so, by 1450 she could surely use a second one.
My impression is otherwise.

For the rules, none are written down for a very long time. For Isabelle and the Game of Triumphs, my best guess is that Giovanni Cossa could have taught her when he presented her with Marcello's gifts.
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Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

#63
Huck wrote:
30 Oct 2019, 11:34
:-) ... well, Scipio Caraffa had the idea, that Isabella would be enjoyed about these cards. That doesn't imply, that Scipio Caraffa knew, which decks Isabella already had seen in her life. There might be a big difference between the perspective of Scipio and Isabella's reality, of course.
Well, we read between the lines differently. My impression from Scipio's reaction and Marcello's description is that Isabelle would have seen the game as an Italian novelty.

There is no reason to think that Naples knew the game while she was there, so this reading is just consistent with its non-existence in Naples at the time. It should not be controversial.
Trionfi cards might be still rather rare in Italy in the late 1440s. From the available Florentine data we may assume, that they become more popular in the early 1450s.
The current data certainly suggests that the 1450s saw much greater popularity for the game than the 1440s. Marcello (who does not seem to have ever left Italy) does not seem to have known it before early 1449 either, nor Scipio, but we don't know very much about him or where he might have been most of the time.
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Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

#64
We should not discount the possibility that Cossa already knew the game, unbeknownst to Marcello. Sforza probably already did as well, but clearly had not shown it to Marcello. If either of these men had been the original gifter, Marcello would have noted it, I think.

Other interesting avenues for speculation are who was Marcello's informant about Marziano - or had Marcello already read Decembrio's Vita? And, of course, who helped him find the book and deck among Filippo's scattered possessions.
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Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

#65
Phaeded wrote:
29 Oct 2019, 18:49
just remembered to see if the book was available, so mine's still in the mail.
You will love it! It is so refreshing to read without having to struggle with the Latin (which I noted, and which Ianziti confirms, is not easy), or even the Italian, which doesn't "ring" even when you can follow it. Ianziti's translation really brings Filippo to life, and you will find yourself with a completely new understanding of the man, I predict. And you will be citing it often. You still need to have the Fossati Muratori to follow up on any reference.

I haven't read Decembrio's Sforza yet, but the background story, given in the introduction, sets it up nicely.
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Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

#66
Phaeded wrote:
29 Oct 2019, 18:49
At all events, I did find mention of Polismagna and Carlo di San Giorgio in this poorly scanned (by Google) 1904 work: Dukes & Poets in Ferrara: A Study in the Poetry, Religion and Politics of of the fifteenth and early sixteenth centuries, By Edmund Garratt Gardner - p. 84. See especially note 2.
Here is Bertoni's change of mind, "Notizie sugli amanuensi degli Estensi nel quattrocento," in Archivium Romanicum II (1918), p. 38, nn. 4 and 5.



Che Polismagna sia Carlo di San Giorgio vide già Venturi ed è già stato ripetuto da me nella mia "Biblioteca estense." Anche il Cappelli aveva avuta la stessa idea, che trova conferma nella studio dei registri dell'Archivio estense.

That Polismagna is Carlo di San Giorgio Venturi already saw and has already been repeated by me in my "Este Library." Cappelli also had the same idea, which is confirmed by the study of the registers of the Estense Archive.


https://archive.org/details/archivumrom ... ft/page/38

I'm not sure about where the argument of his Bolognese origin precluding the identification went.

Here is the note (p. 55 n. 1) in Bertoni's Biblioteca estense that Gardner is referring to, which Bertoni in 1918 omits to mention.



https://archive.org/details/labibliotec ... ft/page/54
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Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

#67
Ross wrote,
My impression is otherwise.

For the rules, none are written down for a very long time. For Isabelle and the Game of Triumphs, my best guess is that Giovanni Cossa could have taught her when he presented her with Marcello's gifts.
Well, "could have" is OK, but the word "could" as opposed to "would" implies other possibilities, such as already having learned it from her husband. That is all I wanted to say. As to whether Marcello is implying that she does not know the game already, your old translation, which I was remembering, is clearly unclear. Comparing the old and the new,, I see that your new translation is rather different and deserves my closer attention. Since not everyone has your new book, perhaps I should quote it:
While I was most pleasantly and courteously discussing with him [Cossa --added later: that should have been Caraffa] of the best and happiest condition of the most serene king, your consort and my only and very observant lord, by chance, certain cards of this game which is called "triumphs" had been offered and given to me as a present.

I do not quite understand what he is saying: the "had been offered" confuses me, when it is preceded by "while I was discussing". Were the cards offered to him while he was in the act of talking with Cossa [added later: should be Caraffa]? If so, the verb form should be "were offered". Or is he somehow saying that he was discussing the condition of her husband and that certain cards had been offered to him, with the "and that" implied?

Either way, I cannot see how he is presuming here that triumphs is a game she does not know. Putting quotation marks around "triumphs" might give that impression, but these quotation marks are lacking in the Latin original. I continue
When Scipio saw them [the cards], being a thoughtful and diligent man, he said earnestly that your majesty would be very much pleased by them; and he urged exceedingly and immediately that they should be sent to you at the first opportunity. Thus indeed he affirmed that, after you have given your attention to religion, and to the royal duties and concerns (by which great things, such as yours, are usually managed), you will have some free time. By means of these pastimes [ludi], you might restore and revive in some measure your mind, wearied by many and different thoughts. On account of this fact, in his [Cossa's - added later: should be "Caraffa's] opinion, nothing more pleasant or agreeable could be brought to you.

The grammar here is fairly clear, except what it is by which great things such as hers are managed. I assume that he means religion and not "royal duties and concerns".

What is he presuming here, about her acquaintance with triumphs? It is possible that he is presuming that she does not know this particular ludo. But one might from the same language ("By means of these pastimes [ludi]"), infer that he is not presuming she knows anything of card games. (What is the antecedent of "these"?). It seems to me that he is trying not presume anything about what she does in her free time. He presumes only that she spends much time with her religious and royal duties. He doesn't want to presume more than he needs to. Even if Cossa [added later: should be Caraffa] told him she liked to play cards, or triumphs, he, a stranger, can't presume to know what Isabelle does with her ladies in her free time. He has made it rather difficult to read between the lines, in my opinion. But of course I am quoting your words (translating Marcello), so perhaps you can tell me what you think they mean, or presume, or imply.

Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

#68
Caraffa to be put in the brackets and a couple of paragraphs, not Cossa. Cossa is the one who took the book and decks to her. He is not part of the story here. Caraffa is the one who suggested it on his return from Provence.

I imagine the conversation between Caraffa and Marcello went something like this:

Marcello: "Great to see you! How was it with the king and queen?"
Caraffa: "Excellent, they're doing well, all things considered. The queen really misses Italy. They're going to go up to Anjou in the fall. "

While chatting, Caraffa notices the cards.

C: "Wow, what kind of cards are those?"
M: "Triumphs. It's a new game that (somebody) just gave me."
C: "They're delightful! The queen would really love them! She loves these little reminders of Italy. You should send it to her immediately!"
M: "That's nice to know. But these look like crap, not exactly Italy's finest production."
C: "She'd love them anyway, they are charming."
M: "Thanks for the suggestion. I'll get right on it. "

Conversation continues about diplomatic issues.

So, that's how I read the text, what the explicit part tells about the implicit part, or "reading between the lines."

Beyond my opinion, I can't argue any further. I don't think the grammar and syntax is that confusing.

"While talking... it just so happened that these cards called "triumphs" had been given to me... when Scipio saw them, he thought how much you would like them."

This is how I read it. I really do, I don't know why it should be a controversial reading. I think Scipio's reaction implies that, when he was there, he got the impression that Isabelle really liked Italian things, maybe was sorry for having to leave Naples. So he thought this kind of quaint or charming novelty, even a poor one, would be to her taste. This suggests to me that he did not see the game there, in her hands, and therefore it further suggests that she did not know it. It is not surprising that she would not have, since there is no reason to think that the game was known in Naples by 1440.

I just thought I'd share my impression of the implications of Scipio's reaction and how Marcello characterizes the conversation that led to him sending them to her.

On putting "triumphs" in quotations, of course there is no indication of that in the Latin. Spelling, capitalization, and punctuation are not consistent or always clear either. There is no plain text versus italicization either.
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Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

#70
The reason I said "could have" instead of "would have" is because we have no way of knowing whether he did or not, but only that he had the opportunity to do so ("could have"). This is not even speculation, it is just one possibility, given the fact; Cossa took the game to her.

Speculating that she "could have" learned the game from René, when we don't have any evidence that he knew of it, and when there is no reason to think that she knew it already, is a chain of two or three baseless speculations, each step depending on another. It is better to be conservative in speculating, making as few assumptions as possible.
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