Re: Gebelin: Misc. Notes & Links
22[Reserved for additional notes and links.]
LINKS TO TEXT AND TRANSLATIONS ONLINE
Court de Gébelin's original essay in Monde Primitif is online here:
https://archive.org/details/mondeprimit ... r/page/364
French text is also online here:
http://www.letarot.com/pages-vrac/pages ... belin.html
Donald Tyson's translation is available through the wayback machine here:
https://web.archive.org/web/20111004232 ... belin.html
A partial translation on tarotpedia together with a transcription of the French text is available on the wayback machine here:
https://web.archive.org/web/20160730161 ... Des_Tarots
A recent partial translation (up to and including Article V) is available courtesy of Sable Feather Press here:
http://www.sablefeatherpress.com/Antoin ... e_Gebelin/
The rules of the game, as described by Gebelin, were translated by Samuel Singer in his Researches into the history of playing cards : with illustrations of the origin of printing and engraving on wood, 1816, and is available online here:
https://archive.org/details/researchesi ... /page/n289
The rules according to Gebelin were also given by S. L. MacGregor Mathers in his The Tarot, 1888, and is available online here:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/tarot/mathers/mtar05.htm
[He also quotes Gebelin's first couple of paragraphs in his introduction.]
TRANSLATIONS IN PRINT
Rhapsodies of the Bizarre Paperback – 2007
by J. Karlin
Du Jeu des Tarots et Recherches Sur les Tarots: from Monde Primitif Book VIII by Antoine Court de Gébelin - 2017
by Evalyne K Hall
The rules for a two-handed French tarot game, after that described by Gebelin, is published in:
A History of Games Played with the Tarot Pack, The Game Of Triumphs, 2004, [Volume 1, Chapter 3.2, p39]
by Michael Dummet and John McLeod
LINKS TO TEXT AND TRANSLATIONS ONLINE
Court de Gébelin's original essay in Monde Primitif is online here:
https://archive.org/details/mondeprimit ... r/page/364
French text is also online here:
http://www.letarot.com/pages-vrac/pages ... belin.html
Donald Tyson's translation is available through the wayback machine here:
https://web.archive.org/web/20111004232 ... belin.html
A partial translation on tarotpedia together with a transcription of the French text is available on the wayback machine here:
https://web.archive.org/web/20160730161 ... Des_Tarots
A recent partial translation (up to and including Article V) is available courtesy of Sable Feather Press here:
http://www.sablefeatherpress.com/Antoin ... e_Gebelin/
The rules of the game, as described by Gebelin, were translated by Samuel Singer in his Researches into the history of playing cards : with illustrations of the origin of printing and engraving on wood, 1816, and is available online here:
https://archive.org/details/researchesi ... /page/n289
The rules according to Gebelin were also given by S. L. MacGregor Mathers in his The Tarot, 1888, and is available online here:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/tarot/mathers/mtar05.htm
[He also quotes Gebelin's first couple of paragraphs in his introduction.]
TRANSLATIONS IN PRINT
Rhapsodies of the Bizarre Paperback – 2007
by J. Karlin
Du Jeu des Tarots et Recherches Sur les Tarots: from Monde Primitif Book VIII by Antoine Court de Gébelin - 2017
by Evalyne K Hall
The rules for a two-handed French tarot game, after that described by Gebelin, is published in:
A History of Games Played with the Tarot Pack, The Game Of Triumphs, 2004, [Volume 1, Chapter 3.2, p39]
by Michael Dummet and John McLeod
Last edited by SteveM on 13 Jul 2019, 21:19, edited 6 times in total.
Re: Gebelin: comments
23Still a fair amount of editing on this to do - formatting, corrections, amendments, suggestions, notes, links, comments welcomed.
Re: Gebelin: Introduction
24Wonderful. Here are a few suggestions for minor changes.
"hit the roof" in colloquial English means "get very angry". I'd suggest "hit the rafters".
"layers or pages" . Seems not what meant by "feuillets ou tableaux" "sheets or scenes", perhaps, or "sheets or pictures"., even "sheets or tableaus".
"work together". I suggest "go together". for "marcher de pair"
establishment of any knowledge. "establishment of any expertise" or "establishment of any field of knowledge"
"these wise people" should be "this Wise People".
Governor of Province - a Provincial Governor
"found" - has found
game with a very ingenious sagacity the - game, with a very ingenious sagacity, the
that distinguished the first bands of Egyptians, - that were distinguished by the first Egyptian Bands
our card games - our Packs of Cards. (But perhaps you will have a note explaining that "jeu" in French means both "game" and "pack", as most of the time when he speaks of "game" he means "pack" or perhaps "game/pack". But here in particular the sense of "pack" has to be understood.)
to drag their heels - your expression has the sense of "lag behind", but that is not what is meant. I cannot figure it out precisely. Something like: "so that the others seem, in some manner, hardly able to drag themselves along in their footsteps. "
was always mute - has always been mute
Possibly - That may be.
and not having any relation with - without any relation to
charged - loaded
over it - on it
selected and significant relations - visible rapports selected
with all - to all
of making - to make
Chiefs - Heads
like a fool - like the fool
he is susceptive - it is susceptible
though one places it in play - though it is placed in the game
I do not think "Juggler"' should be there, for "Bateleur". It is not a good translation. "Juggler" in the sense meant is an archaic meaning, not the person who keeps balls in the air that he is in modern English. Just leave it "Bateleur," with a note about whatever a good French dictionary says the word means.
states - estates (that is, levels of society)
Chiefs of Society - Heads of Society
much less still - much less yet
Well, I'm starting to glaze over. More later.
"hit the roof" in colloquial English means "get very angry". I'd suggest "hit the rafters".
"layers or pages" . Seems not what meant by "feuillets ou tableaux" "sheets or scenes", perhaps, or "sheets or pictures"., even "sheets or tableaus".
"work together". I suggest "go together". for "marcher de pair"
establishment of any knowledge. "establishment of any expertise" or "establishment of any field of knowledge"
"these wise people" should be "this Wise People".
Governor of Province - a Provincial Governor
"found" - has found
game with a very ingenious sagacity the - game, with a very ingenious sagacity, the
that distinguished the first bands of Egyptians, - that were distinguished by the first Egyptian Bands
our card games - our Packs of Cards. (But perhaps you will have a note explaining that "jeu" in French means both "game" and "pack", as most of the time when he speaks of "game" he means "pack" or perhaps "game/pack". But here in particular the sense of "pack" has to be understood.)
to drag their heels - your expression has the sense of "lag behind", but that is not what is meant. I cannot figure it out precisely. Something like: "so that the others seem, in some manner, hardly able to drag themselves along in their footsteps. "
was always mute - has always been mute
Possibly - That may be.
and not having any relation with - without any relation to
charged - loaded
over it - on it
selected and significant relations - visible rapports selected
with all - to all
of making - to make
Chiefs - Heads
like a fool - like the fool
he is susceptive - it is susceptible
though one places it in play - though it is placed in the game
I do not think "Juggler"' should be there, for "Bateleur". It is not a good translation. "Juggler" in the sense meant is an archaic meaning, not the person who keeps balls in the air that he is in modern English. Just leave it "Bateleur," with a note about whatever a good French dictionary says the word means.
states - estates (that is, levels of society)
Chiefs of Society - Heads of Society
much less still - much less yet
Well, I'm starting to glaze over. More later.
Re: Gebelin: Introduction
25Thanks Mike! I have taken your suggestions on board, and made some changes. A few quibbles with some of your suggestions:
I've changed it to:"hit the roof" in colloquial English means "get very angry". I'd suggest "hit the rafters".
"reach its peak" ? (exhaust itself? 'max out' I think fits the meaning, but the tonality is wrong - to modern and colloquial )
I've made that change, but for the rest made a note for now, but will look at changing them all according to context when I have time.our card games - our Packs of Cards. (But perhaps you will have a note explaining that "jeu" in French means both "game" and "pack", as most of the time when he speaks of "game" he means "pack" or perhaps "game/pack". But here in particular the sense of "pack" has to be understood.)
Possibly - That may be.
That's what I had originally - but your comments in the other thread made me look at it again and change it (That may be, or possibly, are both I think ok here, though 'that may be' is the more literal translation, and I have gone back to it.) Your remarks in the other thread also made me think whether this piece of dialogue was clear condensed in the paragraph (after Gebelin), so spaced it out (as is the norm in English with dialogue).
'over it' rather than 'on it' with 'cast [one's] eyes' is I think the more usual idiomatic usage in [british] English, but anyways I have changed it to:over it - on it
"As soon as I lay my eyes on it I see the allegory."
(Alternatively, "As soon as I look at it I see the allegory.")
I agree with you my own attempt here is not very clear - but I'm not sure your own suggestion makes it any clearer. It is a hard sentence I was finding difficult to understand and make sense of. Looking into it further I found that 'choisi[n]', chosen, selected - could also mean discerned, and 'sensible' - archaically 'sensible', more commonly in modern french 'sensitive', could also [though more rarely] be interpreted according to context as 'sympathy'.selected and significant relations - visible rapports selected
Taking this into account I re-did it, and it makes much more sense I think (to me at least), but that does not necessarily mean it's correct:
"Since it was not the play of our imagination, but the result of the discerned relations and sympathy of the game with all that we knew of Egyptian ideas,..."
I do not think "Juggler"' should be there, for "Bateleur". It is not a good translation. "Juggler" in the sense meant is an archaic meaning, not the person who keeps balls in the air that he is in modern English. Just leave it "Bateleur," with a note about whatever a good French dictionary says the word means.
I used it meaning in the archaic sense, but was struggling whether to or not considering its lesser semantic range in modern English. I have changed it back to bateleur for now, and will add a note to it.
I agree that "much less still" is not correct, the 'still' is not required, but I'm not sure 'yet' is needed either, I think:much less still - much less yet
let alone / not to mention / much less / still less, e.g.,
let alone one under the name of POPESSE, as German card makers have ridiculously named her.
much less one under the name of POPESSE,
still less one under the name of POPESSE,
not to mention one under the name of POPESSE,
I suppose 'under the name of'' is so much filler too, which you can replace simply with 'named':
much less one named [the?] POPESSE, ...
Last edited by SteveM on 17 Jul 2019, 01:36, edited 3 times in total.
Re: Gebelin: Introduction
27Thanks again Mike for taking the time to read closely and for your helpful suggestions. Please keep them coming!
Re: Gebelin: Introduction
28OK. I hope that in the sentence about Horace you change "he is susceptive" to "it is susceptible" as the pronoun is "elle", referring to "idee."
Seeker of the True and Just -Seeker of Truth and the Just
epigram like, are of all ages - particularly Epigrammatic, for all time
Cardmakers - The Cardmakers
star - celestial body (the distinction between astre and etoile)
relations -- accounts, narratives (?)
greed - gluttony
Typhoon - Typhon
he likes to own them. - he loves well those who are his.
To this ensemble - For this ensemble
demanded that her son brought back - insisted that her son bring back
goatskin bottles - goatskins [goatskin flasks]
lovers - suitors (?)
Cardmakers (in XX)- The Cardmakers
arrived in Time - happening in Time
composed - made up
More later.
Seeker of the True and Just -Seeker of Truth and the Just
epigram like, are of all ages - particularly Epigrammatic, for all time
Cardmakers - The Cardmakers
star - celestial body (the distinction between astre and etoile)
relations -- accounts, narratives (?)
greed - gluttony
Typhoon - Typhon
he likes to own them. - he loves well those who are his.
To this ensemble - For this ensemble
demanded that her son brought back - insisted that her son bring back
goatskin bottles - goatskins [goatskin flasks]
lovers - suitors (?)
Cardmakers (in XX)- The Cardmakers
arrived in Time - happening in Time
composed - made up
More later.
Re: Gebelin: Introduction
29A couple I missed:
to make it more sensible - to make it more recognizable
finest trick that they had made - finest trick that they had done
I continue:
that it is relative - as it is relative
that most - as most
that this game - this game
our Countries - our Regions
make a single - produce a single
citizens, and - the citizens, since
arranging fate, or, casting a spell - arranging fates, or casting spells
which we play it - in which it is played
have understood correctly - have understood him correctly
we played three: - there were three;
Reserve or Death; Reserve or Mort [dead hand]
discarding three of them - discarding three [from his hand]
five great Trumps. - five big Trumps.
greatest figures - greatest cards (?)
sacrifice - to sacrifice
dinary or denier - dinar or denarius (here see Wikipedia)
Tarot par excellence - Tarots par excellence
The Pagad [Juggler] - The Pagad
four figures - four court cards (?) ("Figure" is difficult to translate, as "figure" has no clear meaning in English in this context. Perhaps "picture cards")
worth ten points, = worth ten more points,
The way to play the cards. - Manner of playing these Cards
forms a Trump - constitutes a Trump
take the Juggler - take the Pagad
the figures - the cards (?)
when the game is started wins - once the game has started who wins
his face - his front
would have - will have
may have - will have
Edom, who - Idumea [Edom], which
Susa [ancient - Sufiana [Susa, ancient (Are you sure it's Susa? He might have been thinking of the Sufi as a people.)
Delta or Low Egypt - the Delta or Lower Egypt
the Gaetuli, which was placed in the South - the Gaetuli, who were placed south
wide - widespread
Nigeria - Nigritie [Nigeria]
Baetica rich in herds, the Celtiberia - Baetica (Andalusia) rich in herds, Celtiberia
of their habits, of their uses, - of their customs, of their practices
to revive - to renew
for those which they have already given rise to - for that which they have already brought forth
circulation does not play with freedom - circulation is not given free play
take into account all the many countries. - keep accounts in all the many countries (?)
on which all the stars rest by carrying out their revolutions around it - on which all the celestial bodies are supported in executing their revolutions around it
in fire characters printed - in characters of fire impressed
based as the sciences - based, like the Sciences,
All others - All the others
and are governed = and who are governed
shakeup in - shake to
his care - his endeavors
planning - not forgetting
Juggler - Bâteleur
triumphant is - triumphant, is
does not make any school - is of no school
would be the - would be, or nearly so,
to make it more sensible - to make it more recognizable
finest trick that they had made - finest trick that they had done
I continue:
that it is relative - as it is relative
that most - as most
that this game - this game
our Countries - our Regions
make a single - produce a single
citizens, and - the citizens, since
arranging fate, or, casting a spell - arranging fates, or casting spells
which we play it - in which it is played
have understood correctly - have understood him correctly
we played three: - there were three;
Reserve or Death; Reserve or Mort [dead hand]
discarding three of them - discarding three [from his hand]
five great Trumps. - five big Trumps.
greatest figures - greatest cards (?)
sacrifice - to sacrifice
dinary or denier - dinar or denarius (here see Wikipedia)
Tarot par excellence - Tarots par excellence
The Pagad [Juggler] - The Pagad
four figures - four court cards (?) ("Figure" is difficult to translate, as "figure" has no clear meaning in English in this context. Perhaps "picture cards")
worth ten points, = worth ten more points,
The way to play the cards. - Manner of playing these Cards
forms a Trump - constitutes a Trump
take the Juggler - take the Pagad
the figures - the cards (?)
when the game is started wins - once the game has started who wins
his face - his front
would have - will have
may have - will have
Edom, who - Idumea [Edom], which
Susa [ancient - Sufiana [Susa, ancient (Are you sure it's Susa? He might have been thinking of the Sufi as a people.)
Delta or Low Egypt - the Delta or Lower Egypt
the Gaetuli, which was placed in the South - the Gaetuli, who were placed south
wide - widespread
Nigeria - Nigritie [Nigeria]
Baetica rich in herds, the Celtiberia - Baetica (Andalusia) rich in herds, Celtiberia
of their habits, of their uses, - of their customs, of their practices
to revive - to renew
for those which they have already given rise to - for that which they have already brought forth
circulation does not play with freedom - circulation is not given free play
take into account all the many countries. - keep accounts in all the many countries (?)
on which all the stars rest by carrying out their revolutions around it - on which all the celestial bodies are supported in executing their revolutions around it
in fire characters printed - in characters of fire impressed
based as the sciences - based, like the Sciences,
All others - All the others
and are governed = and who are governed
shakeup in - shake to
his care - his endeavors
planning - not forgetting
Juggler - Bâteleur
triumphant is - triumphant, is
does not make any school - is of no school
would be the - would be, or nearly so,
Re: Gebelin: Introduction
30Thanks Mike! Much appreciated.
It's Susiana I think, not Sufiana (it has been transcribed wrong, confusing s with f). But Susa is wrong in that Susiana refers to the region named after its major City Susa, not just Susa itself. I have replaced it with Susiana and provided a link. I have done the same with several others of the more obscure ones. I have had difficulty finding a link for Atlantes (Africa) in English, and included a link to a french one for now (where non-French speakers can at least see the area it covered from the map). Wikipedia is difficult for me to access in Turkey as it's blocked, I can get it for now using a VPN, but several VPNs are also blocked, and no doubt they will get around to blocking the one I am currently using at the moment. If you know of a good link for Atlantes, Africa in English let me know and I will include it.
mikeh wrote: 17 Jul 2019, 11:19 Susa [ancient - Sufiana [Susa, ancient (Are you sure it's Susa? He might have been thinking of the Sufi as a people.)
It's Susiana I think, not Sufiana (it has been transcribed wrong, confusing s with f). But Susa is wrong in that Susiana refers to the region named after its major City Susa, not just Susa itself. I have replaced it with Susiana and provided a link. I have done the same with several others of the more obscure ones. I have had difficulty finding a link for Atlantes (Africa) in English, and included a link to a french one for now (where non-French speakers can at least see the area it covered from the map). Wikipedia is difficult for me to access in Turkey as it's blocked, I can get it for now using a VPN, but several VPNs are also blocked, and no doubt they will get around to blocking the one I am currently using at the moment. If you know of a good link for Atlantes, Africa in English let me know and I will include it.
I think 'stars' [or 'constellations'] is the more correct here, as it is referring to the circling of the stars/constellations around Polaris (the North Star, in the constellation of Ursa Minor), not to celestial bodies in general.
on which all the stars rest by carrying out their revolutions around it - on which all the celestial bodies are supported in executing their revolutions around it