Re: Collection to Etteilla followers ; theme JGSS

#41
I did not mean to imply that the plates were different. But how can you tell whether Depaulis's cards are from the first printing, 1788, or a second printing, in some later year--no later than 1792--from the same plates? Sometimes you can see if the lines of the engraving show wear, especially with woodcuts. Admittedly I don't see any. But we don't know how many decks were in the initial press run. And I thought these were plates of metal, which would last longer.

Re: Collection to Etteilla followers ; theme JGSS

#42
mikeh wrote:
26 Apr 2018, 10:55
I did not mean to imply that the plates were different. But how can you tell whether Depaulis's cards are from the first printing, 1788, or a second printing, in some later year--no later than 1792--from the same plates?
It is possible there was more than the one edition, but the mere rarity (the forty in the collection of Depaulis are the only existing ones I am aware of) argue against there having been several editions - all we know for sure is a dating of mid-March 1789 for the first (and perhaps only) edition of printed cards - and of 1788 for engraving of the plates (and perhaps the printed sheets, but those too could have also have been printed later of course) - but yes, those of Depaulis could have been from a later printing -
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re:Etteilla no numbered fool:

#44
2+ years ago I had a house fire in which I lost my decks. texts and computers - I had been involved in researching Etteilla and collected and interpreted a lot of stuff. My partner died last year and I have been in no state of mind to carry on with such (or much of anything else). I have recently took an interest in such again and busy collecting what I had lost -

One of the things I remember having, which I cannot find any reference to anywhere online, was an early Etteilla fool card without any numbering (no '78' nor '0'), pretty sure if I remember correctly it was a German version - Is anyone aware of a Gerrman Etteilla deck, an early one, in which the Fool is unnumbered?

The 1788 Basan printed sheets have it numbered as '0' (without the number '78').

The d'Odoucet (c.1804) images in his books are a fairly faithful re-drawing of Etteilla/Basan. That they are not so fine is probably due to the original being a copper engraving and the d'Odoucet woodblock. D'Odoucet retains the double/triple numbering and star signs: There is no numbering on the Fool in his book.

The keywords are largely the same with the following exceptions:

1 - Top and bottom has 'CONSULTANT' - image has added rays from a circumference surrounding the 'driving point', misconstrued in some later reproductions as a sunburst. The original Etteilla has the driving point too, but not the rays, and has 'ETTEILLA' at the top and 'QUESTIONNANT' at the bottom.

8 - Has 'CONSULTANTE' at the top - Etteilla has 'ETTEILLA' at the top (both have 'QUESTIONNANTE' at the bottom).

14. There is a spelling difference between 'MAJEURE' on the d'Odoucet and 'MAJEUR' on the Etteilla, as illustrated in the book 'FORCE MAJEURE' at bottom is upright on the d'Odoucet, inverted on the Etteilla. (Note: All labels are upright at the bottom as illustrated in d'Odoucet's book, but this may for purpose of the book, and not reflect what was actually on the cards.)

16 - No label at bottom

18 - No label at bottom

19 - Top, 'DETRESSE', Etteilla = 'MISERE', Bottom, 'CAPTIVITE' Etteilla = 'PRISON'

28 - Bottom, 'IRRESOLUTION', Etteilla = 'DISPUTE INTESTINE'.

33. Bottom 'INTERRUPTION', Etteilla = 'PEINES TENDENT A LEUR FIN'

38 - Bottom, 'ARTIFICE', Etteilla = 'FRIPONNERIE'

51 - Top, 'VIDUITIE', Etteilla = 'VEUVAGE'

53 - Top, 'SURVEILLANT', Etteilla = 'ESPION'

54 - Top, 'AFFLICTIONS', Etteilla = 'PLEURS'

55 - Top, 'CELIBITAIRE', Etteilla = 'ECLESIASTIQUE'

63 - Top, 'FRUCTIFICATION', Etteilla = 'EXTREME'; Bottom, 'EXTREME', Etteilla = 'GROSSESSE'

64 - Bottom, 'VICE', Etteilla = 'HOMME VICIEUX'

74 - Top, 'BIEN FAIT', Etteilla = 'UN PRESENTE'

75 - Top, 'IMPORTANT', Etteilla = 'NOBLE'

But where d'Odoucet differs, the alternates are among the synonyms.

In the d'Odoucet book too (as with the image of the German deck I recall seeing), 'FOLIE' has no number on it (in the 1788 Etteilla/Basan print it has '0': but there is no number '78' on it!). I am certain that I have seen an actual early printed deck (pretty sure German - though the German decks I have found online, from1793 and 1857, do have 78/0), in which the Ettiella fool has no number - can anyone confirm that? Have I imagined/dreamt/misremembered it? As I have lost all my old references I'm not in a position to confirm it. But if there ever was such, hopefully someone here will be able to confirm so...
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Collection to Etteilla followers ; theme JGSS

#45
ps: I have managed to re-collect pdf versions of all four cahiers, plus the lessons, high science and alchemy text; and d'Odoucet's 'Science of Signs' Volumes 1&2 (missing volume 3 however); also from his 19th century exponents/variations the 1850's edition of 'Julia Orisini' [Simon Blocquel- Type II), the 1943 Mongie (c1860/70's 'Tarots Egyptiens' or JJeu de Princesse'), 1826 Plancy/Perrenna, 1856 Lemarchand (type III) -


If anyone else has other docs, (e.g., supplements, earlier first edition of the Orsini? Volume 3 of d'Odoucet; Jejalel's Synonyms) related to Etteilla, can you pass them on? (Anyone want what I have, just message, you're welcome. Just want to see the material out there - and if we can get it out in English all the better (kudos to Mike H. for all his work! The best resource in English so far!)

What I'd love to see is a translation of his works, and a reproduction of the Etteilla I based upon the 1788 Basan prints! I'm the first to admit neither my interpretation nor graphically skills (nor financial resources) are up to the job I'd like to see produced - but I'm willing to share what limited skills and resources I have to the purpose.
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Collection to Etteilla followers ; theme JGSS

#46
I'm glad you're feeling better, Steve. You've had quite a series of blows.

The unnumbered Fool card you are referring to is on p. 402 of Kaplan vol. 2. Its keyword is "Thorheit". It is marked "collection of the author", which I suppose means it may be anywhere now. If you like I can send you a copy of the page, plus Kaplan's comments about it on the preceding page. Kaplan dates it to "mid-nineteenth century" but I think we discussed it once and thought it might be earlier, perhaps put out by Hisler in the 1820s.

My main hesitation in undertaking such a project as you envision is, is he worth it? I've picked out what seemed to be of historical interest and not too hard to translate, but his French of the 1770 book and the first two cahiers is not good, meaning in places very hard to figure out for a non-French speaker. (Actually it seems to me that some Englishwoman well known in esoteric circles - Caitlin Matthews? - did do a translation of the 1770 book sometime recently, but you had to pay for a whole course to get it and I didn't bother. You might find a mention on the Internet somewhere.) The first 2 cahiers also seem to me filled with rambling nonsense. Haven't you on occasion cast aspersions on his contributions ? I would go further than that, actually. His type of prognostication is really dangerous, if someone in power, or his or her spouse, takes it seriously. For example, I suspect that Napoleon III did take Paul Christian seriously (because of his accurate prediction of his son and the outcome of the Crimean War, also the claims of one of his followers to have been invited to read for him, if I am recalling one of the extra cards right). I have no other explanation for Napoleon III's stupid decision to take Bismarck's bait in 1870 (yes, I know that people with loud voices were clamoring for war, but that is no excuse for someone with the means to have a spy network). He must have gotten some good cards. Christian's interpretations are made to order for recklessness. Then came the settlement of World War I (revenge for 1870), and from there World War II, thanks a lot. It is possible that his system of keywords and synonyms contain some food for thought, I don't know. For better or worse, it has survived in the writings of others, often mixed with other things completely foreign to it. I actually don't believe he invented it, because he gives no coherent basis for any of it in his writings, and his illustrations of how to use it seem mostly just enticements to sign up with him, and otherwise absurd. I suspect that the actual practice evolved in an underground way from a chain of people who knew what to say to meet a need, and he knew how to package it in a way that would get past the censors, by catering to Gebelin and his ilk. So please tell us why he is worth it. It is perhaps ok as an intellectual exercise, but someone with a very good command of French would need to review - and I suspect often rewrite - the translations. At the moment he is low on my list of worthwhile projects, but I am open to persuasion.

Re: Collection to Etteilla followers ; theme JGSS

#47
Thank Mike, yes Kaplan must have been where I saw it, also in the Christie Kaplan auction catalogue I think.

Re: an update on the dating in the timeline:- A "Jeu des Tarots égyptiens" by Johannes Trismegiste was published by "Passard' c1854 or earlier: adverts for the L.Passard Library have it for sale from at least that time, Black figures for 3.00, coloured for 4.50. {I happened to come across them as I was looking for something else.} These are possibly the 'anonymous' ones we have for 1864? Or perhaps that was another edition...*


edited to add: Just seen another advert for 78 'Tarots Egytiens' with one for Trimegiste's book, 1850 Laisne addition. The book and a deck were republished by Passard in 1854 (it included a preface by Arthur Delanou, one of the pseudonyms of Passard; in 1854 Trismegiste's book on dreams was also published by Passard (under another of his pseudonyms, Eugene le Gai). However, the text in the 1854 passard edition is different to the earlier one by Trismegiste.Laisne in that it refers to the 'Jeu de Princess' and has titles such as 'Anubis' - so not clear whether the 'Tarots Egyptien' adevertised with the Laisne is the same as that of Passard, 1854....


*passard published another edition in 1864.

An advert for the Passard reads:

Les Jeu des Tarots égyptiens. 78 figures, les seules dessinées d'après l'antiquité égyptienne.

Figures noires.. 3 a
Figures coloriées. 4 50
On est prié de faire attention au nom de l'éditeur « Passard » qui se trouve dans l'intérieur de la boite.

NOTA . On trouve la manière de jouer à ce Jeu, l'un des plus amusants qui se jouent en société, dans le Manuel du Devin de Nattianiel Moulth et dans l'art de tirer les cartes, par Johannès Trismégiste. [Both of which were published by Passard in 1854.]
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Collection to Etteilla followers ; theme JGSS

#48
Thanks. Since I can't correct the Timeline that appears on Aeclectic, due to that site's closure, I will have to put it and your updates on a blog. I haven't done that yet, at least not the full version that is on Aeclectic.

As far as translations: Julia Orsini's text, I have, besides scans of the copy at the University of Nevada at Las Vegas, what seems to be a revised version of the same book, together with an English translation, iin the Little White Book that goes with the Dusserre edition of the Grand Etteilla III - thus worth getting if only for that reason.

D'Odoucet's synonyms,, at least as copied by Papus, appear in his Tarot Divinitoire, which Stockman translated into English. Papus mentions his source in his introduction. Oddly they vary considerably from those in Orsini. I would have expected both to be that of d'Odoucet, since d'Odoucet is recorded by the Gendarmerie to have violated his parole in 1809 by journeying without permission to Lisle, where Miss Orsini (then probably Simon Blocquel's father-in-law) resided. Either d'Odoucet revised his list or one of them is not his, but Jejalel's. I assume that d'Odoucet's original lists are in his Science of Signs, vol. 3, which neither of us has. I have what I think are those in Papus, in French, in another book, Le Tarot Egyptien, ses symboles, ses nombres, son alphabet: comment on lit le tarot: l'Oeuvre d'Etteilla restituee, by Elia Alta, 1922.

Etteilla's last short work of reminiscences is in the LWB that goes with the Petit Etteilla, in French and English (but without any indication that that is what it is, other than that it is by Etteilla). It also contains, in both languages, a "Treatise on Dreams and Visions According to the Egyptians and Persians," which gives short interpretations for various subjects that might appear, in alphabetical order. Could that be the same treatise on dreams that you mentioned?

That's all I can think of at the moment.

A problem with doing a new edition of the cards, besides the work involved, is that Lo Scarabeo recently put out an edition based on a copy they have. I haven't seen it. It is already sold out, I think, but they will surely reprint it. There is no denying the demand. And Cartes France's edition is still in print, even if it is not historically accurate in its keywords and in card 1, with its sunburst. Actually, an edition that uses the 1788 illustrations is not strictly speaking accurate, since the cards were produced by a different process and contained the various words and numbers, only some of which could be verified by comparison with Depaulis's set of original cards.

By Etteilla in French, there are a few minor works you have not listed: his comments on Hisler's method for the lottery, a letter by an admirer (I suspect written by Etteilla himself); I have these. I do not have his "zodiaque" or his works on palmistry and 'metaposcopy' (physionomy) (Wicked Pack p. 88). The supplements, I think, are all in the extant editions (which are reprints) of Cahiers 2, 3, and 4, so you should have them all, at least all that are mentioned in Wicked Pack..

Re: Collection to Etteilla followers ; theme JGSS

#49
mikeh wrote:
02 Apr 2019, 01:51
Thanks. Since I can't correct the Timeline that appears on Aeclectic, due to that site's closure, I will have to put it and your updates on a blog. I haven't done that yet, at least not the full version that is on Aeclectic.
I was thinking of the timeline on your blog, hadn't checked whether it was the last updated version, but assumed it was.
As far as translations: Julia Orsini's text, I have, besides scans of the copy at the University of Nevada at Las Vegas, what seems to be a revised version of the same book, together with an English translation, iin the Little White Book that goes with the Dusserre edition of the Grand Etteilla III - thus worth getting if only for that reason.
I have the revised 1850's version, but not the original 1838.
D'Odoucet's synonyms,, at least as copied by Papus, appear in his Tarot Divinitoire, which Stockman translated into English. Papus mentions his source in his introduction. Oddly they vary considerably from those in Orsini. I would have expected both to be that of d'Odoucet, since d'Odoucet is recorded by the Gendarmerie to have violated his parole in 1809 by journeying without permission to Lisle, where Miss Orsini (then probably Simon Blocquel's father-in-law) resided. Either d'Odoucet revised his list or one of them is not his, but Jejalel's. I assume that d'Odoucet's original lists are in his Science of Signs, vol. 3, which neither of us has. I have what I think are those in Papus, in French, in another book, Le Tarot Egyptien, ses symboles, ses nombres, son alphabet: comment on lit le tarot: l'Oeuvre d'Etteilla restituee, by Elia Alta, 1922.
I don't have the Alta, but believe it is basically a copy of d'Odoucet, volume 2? The synonyms appear in Volume 2, which I have. I believe there were some complaints about Jejalel's version, according to one of Etteilla's students some of his synonyms he didn't agree with and others were in the wrong place (so perhaps the source for the reversal of birth/fall on the ace of batons in some later decks?). [d'Odoucet too makes an error of reversing a keyword on his own deck.]

As I recall it d'Odoucet was under order to remain in Lille, which he did for several years, and disappeared when the mayor issued a warrant for his arrest (possibly for violating his parole by travelling outside of Lille?). It is possible his catalogue did come into the possession of Castiaux-Blocquel, also of Lille. I don't think he (nor they) had possession of the original plates however. His own deck was a fairly faithful re-drawing of the original with the exceptions I listed in my above post, not printed from the original plates. The closest Etteilla Type I decks to the Basan plates produced in the 19th century are those of the anonymous 1800-1860 (a copy of which I see was sold at a Paris auction in October last year, the BM copy up to then being the only one I was aware of). These match very, very closely to those produced by Hussey and Grimaud c1890's (I suspect the catalogue of the anonymous publisher must have come into the hands of Grimaud, via Hussey or Lequart & Mignot). The only difference to the Basan prints, which I take to be an accurate reflection of the original plates, is with the addition of the number 78 on the fool, the rays from the driving point on the first trump, which with the yellow colouring make it look like a sunburst - I wonder if these were added to the original plates at some point? edited to add: And just remembered - the clothing of the nude figures on the devil card.
Etteilla's last short work of reminiscences is in the LWB that goes with the Petit Etteilla, in French and English (but without any indication that that is what it is, other than that it is by Etteilla). It also contains, in both languages, a "Treatise on Dreams and Visions According to the Egyptians and Persians," which gives short interpretations for various subjects that might appear, in alphabetical order. Could that be the same treatise on dreams that you mentioned?

Could be, a lot of Trismegiste's text(s) are straight copies of Etteilla or Gebelin/Mellet.

The only texts I have that went with the Petit Etteilla are:

The one the BnF attributes to Alliette and erroneously date 1780-1820 - it is later, printed c1829 - 1838 - but is the same as the text that went with earlier editions.

The one that went with the Gueffier, c1802 and later editions, and the one that went with the 1796 saint-saveur. I'm sure I had a 1791 (by Ettiella?) too, but can't find it now (I lost all my old copies of Etteilla material I had collected, but have managed to track most of the down online again) - and am perhaps confusing it with something else.
A problem with doing a new edition of the cards, besides the work involved, is that Lo Scarabeo recently put out an edition based on a copy they have. I haven't seen it. It is already sold out, I think, but they will surely reprint it. There is no denying the demand. And Cartes France's edition is still in print, even if it is not historically accurate in its keywords and in card 1, with its sunburst.

There certainly does seem to be a growing interest, and plenty of competition among our professional card-makers to meet the demand. As a commercial venture, I doubt it is one from which one might expect to profit from - but I'd be happy if it recouped the costs, which is perhaps unlikely if one includes the cost of one's time - better would be, given evidence for such a demand, one of our professional card manufacturers might be persuaded to produce a deck based upon the Basan prints - though they might deem too, that it is already being sufficiently met, albeit if not quite to the original model. Perhaps if someone with a love of historical reproductions like Giordano Berti with card publishing experience was interested it might be achievable.
Actually, an edition that uses the 1788 illustrations is not strictly speaking accurate, since the cards were produced by a different process and contained the various words and numbers, only some of which could be verified by comparison with Depaulis's set of original cards.
I am not sure what you mean by the cards being produced by a different process. I think they would have been printed from the same plates the sheets were, with the same text and numbering - unless you mean the printed colouring process v, hand-painted? Those that I have seen from the Depaulis collection (of 40 or 41 cards?), mostly in B&W (copied from Wicked Pack of cards), but some in colour (courtesy of Kenji) match the Basan plates, including the text and numbers - the colouring is poor in comparison with the hand water-colouring of course, as one would expect from the limitations of the colour printing processed used. I haven't seen and don't know whether Depaulis has the fool among those he possesses - so don't know whether the actual printed deck had that number 78 on it. I think it would be as accurate to that envisioned by Basan/Etteilla as is possible (presuming there were no engraver's errors on the original plate). The Basan sheet itself includes an advert for the sheets themselves, in B&W or in colour, in sheet form or as a set of 78 coloured cards - with the Basan sheets as model, any set produced would perhaps be more accurate to that (presumably hand) coloured set, than the colour-printed set they were later able to produce at that time.
By Etteilla in French, there are a few minor works you have not listed: his comments on Hisler's method for the lottery, a letter by an admirer (I suspect written by Etteilla himself); I have these. I do not have his "zodiaque" or his works on palmistry and 'metaposcopy' (physionomy) (Wicked Pack p. 88)...[/i].
I don't have the Hisler or the letter. The zodiac I think I've seen online somewhere and so can probably track down, same with his alchemy text - I don't know about the others (the palmistry and metaposcopy). It wasn't in my head to translate his complete works however, just the tarot ones and perhaps the petit ettiella, at least to start with :D But nonetheless would like to have and read them, in as much as they may help in understanding his tarot writings, references and sources better. My own French is sufficient to tidy up a google translation and make sense of it (with a little research into archaic words or obscure idiomatic expressions), which is fine for my own purposes, and perhaps for sharing on a blog or in a pdf to anyone interested in Etteilla without expectation or requirements of a professional translation, and understanding there may be errors and some points of confusion. Hardly sufficient though I think for a commercial enterprise - I think that would require a bi-lingual French editor/translator.

For the purpose of card readers, I am not sure how helpful Etteilla's own Cahiers would be, I suspect many a reader would be left more confused than enlightened with an understanding of how to read his deck - something more akin to d'Odoucets Science of Signs volumes 1 & 2 might be better in that respect. The Cahiers are possibly of more interest to the historically minded with an interest in the sources and development of cartomancy and the esoteric tarots. Some of the later interpreters, the likes of 'Julia Orsini' [Simon Blocquel], are often very literal and veer from the silly to the scary; many of them like Orsini weren't readers at all, but hack authors/publishers (but nonetheless of interest to the extent of how they have drawn upon original material). Some of the interpretations of the Polish Sybille 'Perenna' are so silly and hilarious they verge on parody (which was quite likely intended to be if, as is likely, Collin de Plancy was the real author), but was nonetheless used almost verbatim in the LWBs that accompanied some of the Grimaud editions (some others are derived from Orsini).
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Collection to Etteilla followers ; theme JGSS

#50
Number symbolism of the Etteilla - here an example with card 61. My note at the bottom, re: the 1 and 6, is my speculation about the number symbolism - I am not totally sure, that is how I am currently [trying to] making sense of it! Anyone have any better ideas?

The original French of the first paragraph:

"L'homme 1, n'est plus ce prince de l'Univers, nous le voyons végéter dans la sphère du globe insère 6, qu'il parcourt, oblige de chercher au loin la subsistance que le sol où il n'acquit pas lui refuse peut-être."
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Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot
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