## The trump labels of France

### The trump labels of France

#1
This is a post in the Tarocchi Goes West series, but not about any particular trump. It is about the labels on French tarot cards, as opposed to the images on them. I will post it in four parts.

Noblet's labels. Noblet copied 16 trumps, plus the fool, so closely from Viéville you can hardly tell them apart. For the five consecutive trumps which he did not copy from Viéville, he copied at least three of them closely from the Cary sheet (I will speak of it so, but naturally what Noblet had was cards or complete sheets, not the one particular damaged sheet that we have). If I am right that the Cary sheet showed a Gemini on the Sun card, as it showed zodiac figures on the Moon and Star cards, then Noblet copied four images from Cary sheet. He copied every card, that is, from either Viéville or Cary sheet, except Devil. Noblet has labels and numbers on his cards, while neither Viéville nor Cary sheet has labels, and Cary sheet does not have numbers. Viéville's numbers are in Susio's order, while Noblet's numbers are in Catelin Geofroy's order, also used by the Anonymous Parisian. Noblet must have had access of some kind to Geofroy, or to the AP, or to someone who copied from them, or he wouldn't have been able to number his cards in Geofroy's order. Did Noblet have Geofroy's cards or the AP's cards in front of him? Noblet, the great copier, may have chosen to ignore Geofroy's and the AP's images for some unknown reason of his own; all we can say is that there is no sign that he was influenced by the images of either one, not for even one card. That's what we can say about Noblet's images and order. What can we say about Noblet's labels?

Where did Noblet get his labels, since he could not get them from Viéville nor the Cary sheet? We are a bit short of knowing what the Italian labels were. We don't have a labeled Italian deck. What we have are the poems. Here is a table with the name from Susio and Piscina (they are usually the same), then the AP's label (Geofroy didn't have labels), then Noblet's. The fourth column is "yes" to say that the French label could have come from the image, without knowledge of the Italian name for the card. It is "YES" or even stronger "YES!" when there is, besides, reason to think the Italian name was unknown to the French. ( * ) means the individual card will be discussed below, after the main conclusion to be drawn from this table.

Although I much appreciate the table, which I understand was first posted in this forum, with similar columns, I still have not understood the Viéville column in that table, since Viéville's cards have no labels; also, that table lacks a column for the anonymous Parisian. So here is a new table:
label table top.PNG (29.77 KiB) Viewed 10012 times
label table bottom.PNG (12.38 KiB) Viewed 10012 times
Main conclusion: Noblet copied the anonymous Parisian's labels exactly, except one. In every case except having "Le Maison Dieu" where the AP had "LaFouldre," Noblet copied the AP's label closely. We knew already that for 21 out of the 22 cards, Noblet copied his image very closely from either the one or the other of his two image sources, but for one card, Devil, he was original. Now we learn that for 21 out of 22 labels, Noblet copied his label very closely from his label source, but for one label, "La Maison Dieu," he was original.

I have a section below about Noblet's mysterious label "La Maison Dieu."

Labels after the AP and Noblet. Noblet copied his labels from the AP. Later French tarot of the southern tradition, the Tarot de Marseille, copied Noblet (via Madenié). To the north Hautot of Rouen and the four tarot makers of Flanders (Vandenborre, Gisaine, Galler, and Dupont) copied Viéville's images, although in Geofroy's order, but they could not copy Viéville's labels as he didn't have any. Perhaps they copied Noblet's labels since they couldn't copy Viéville, but since Noblet copied the AP, we can't say whether these northerners copied Noblet or copied directly from the AP, except for the one card where Noblet was original. For that card, they copied the AP, not Noblet. They have "La Foudre" on the card which, since the image is from Viéville, shows lightning hitting a tree. I wish I had Houtot's cards. The Flemish labels are like the AP's except that 1) Lovers is Lamour (like the Italian L'Amore) rather than the APs "Lamoureus" (Noblet's Lamovreux). Besides that there are some minor changes where they've added an apostrophe or a space after the article, or otherwise (such as Le'toille rather than Lestoille) are closer to modern French than Noblet is. Force becomes La Force. So although the AP is, probably, sometime in the earlyish 1600s (we really have no idea), he was still around as an influence for quite some time, copied by Noblet for his labels in 1659, and copied by Hautot (or directly by the Flanders four) for his label "La Fouldre, as late as the 1700s.

There is one more very interesting case of the AP's influence. I will discuss it further below; it is his WORLD card. The AP shows a man standing on a tripartite globe. It is a man, naked, not an angel (no wings). Viéville has a naked man also, but no tripartite globe. But Vandenborre and the other three of Flanders, who otherwise follow Viéville, have the tripartite globe like the AP. The figure does have wings in Flanders, and the gender is unclear (Noblet, while copying Viéville, changed the figure to female). I will say more of this card below: I wanted to mention it for this table of influences:
influence graph.png (139.68 KiB) Viewed 10012 times

And this list of innovations
• C-order commonalities (including Milan handmade) : Strength fights lion, rather than breaks pillar ; Judgment/Angel is trumpet over graves, not a city.
• -- Things not in any C-order: Star as 3 kings
• Geofroy innovations copied- changed C order by switching trumps XI and IX on either side of X, Il Gobbo becomes Hermit, with lantern rather than hourglass.
• Geofroy innovations not copied ; Hanged man hangs by two legs, angle support on post; Death has shovel
• The AP's innovations : labels: The Lovers rather than Love, Hermit rather than Old Man, The Judgment rather than The Angel;
• AP-Cary sheet similarities : Emperor in profile.
• Cary sheet innovations - zodiac figures of Aquarius, Cancer, and (if I'm right) Gemini for the 3 celestials
• -- Hand-made Italy qualities passed to France, but not on Cary sheet : Death is standing rather than riding ;
• A Cary sheet noteworthy fact: Empress crown resembles virtue Temperance
• Innovations by Viéville or Cary sheet, whoever is first, but not in Geoffrey, the AP, nor hand-made Italy : Chariot is face on ; horse legs are mirror image; Fortuna's Wheel is at angle not face on; Hanged Man has fingers at the sides of head.
• Viéville similarities to Cary sheet, not in Geoffrey nor AP, but in hand-made Italy: Emperor sits in profile; Bagato is alone; Empress and Emperor have eagle shield; Chariot rider under canopy ;
• Viéville innovations (not in Geoffrey, nor AP, nor Cary sheet, nor Italy) : Pope has crook. Lovers has mother-in-law; Justice has wing-back throne. Animals on Wheel (shared with Budapest) ; "Sol Fama" scroll on Temperance (Fama Vola on Chariot occurs in Orfeo Minchiate);
• Viéville similarities to some Italy (not in Geoffrey nor AP nor Cary): Pope has attendants;
• Noblet innovations- Devil standing on a pedestal; label "La Maison Dieu"; Temperance has wings; world figure is female (as often in Italy); Aquarius is female; Moon has dogs
• Budapest similarities to France : Tower is a tower. El gobbo is hermit with lantern. Hanged man has rough-hewn scaffold

End of part 1 of 4, of a posting on the trump labels of France. I will post the other parts as replies.

### Re: The trump labels of France

#2
Nice work Sandy! I look forward to the rest.
sandyh wrote:
12 Jan 2019, 23:35
Although I much appreciate the table, which I understand was first posted in this forum, with similar columns, I still have not understood the Viéville column in that table, since Viéville's cards have no labels; also, that table lacks a column for the anonymous Parisian. So here is a new table:
I think I've seen the table you are on about, not sure where it is, can you link to it? I imagine that if it has labels for Vieville, they are based on the names of the cards used in the poem on the Ace of Coins and Two of Cups which gives us the names of the cards as:

- MA[T?]
I BAGA [T?]
II LA PAPESSE
III LINPERATRYCE
IIII LANEPEREVR
V LE PAPE
VI AMOVREVX
VII YVSTICE
VIII TRANNAY [a type of wagon/cart but also a verb meaning to drag or take away, as we have in English a cart but also as in to take away, to be carted off]
IX FORCE
X DAME*
XI VIELART
XII PENDVE
XIII NOT NAMED
XIIII FAMA SOL [nb: this epiteth appears on the card itself, not in the poem]
XV DYABLE
XVI LA FOVDRE
XVII LES ETOILLE
XVIII LA LVNE
XIX SOLEIL
XX TROMPE
XXI LE MONDE

I don't see any reason not to include them as they are given, albeit not on the trump cards themselves.

*Some believe that DAME refers to Temperance, I'm more inclined to agree with Romain Merlin that it refers to Fortuna (Dame Fortune). MA[T], BAGA[T] and FAMA SOL suggests to me an Italian source/influence.

(Michel de Marolles in his "REGLES DV IEV DES TAROTS", 1637 does not name all the trumps unfortunately, but he does name Le Math, Le Bagat & Le Monde, which match with Vieville. He also refers to the valets as Faon - to which the AP's 'F' on the valets might refer too? If not the Italian Fante?)

We do not have exact datings for the Vieville or Noblet, so perhaps prefix those dates with a c. ?

The dating of the AP is very unsure, perhaps that it is labelled indicates it might be later? Geofroy - no labels - the earliest, Vieville no labels on the trumps but given in a poem on the AD and 2C as a transitional, then AP and Noblet with names on the trumps themselves? That said there are some who would date the AP much earlier, to the latter half of the 16th century rather than the 17th, reasoning for such can be found on other threads.
sandyh wrote:
12 Jan 2019, 23:35
• Viéville similarities to Cary sheet, not in Geoffrey nor AP, but in hand-made Italy: Emperor sits in profile; Bagato is alone; Empress and Emperor have eagle shield; Chariot rider under canopy ;
The subject of the Eagle shields recently came up on the f/b tarot history forum, the question posed by Ben Steel being: the early decks with Eagle shields all show a single headed eagle excepting one, the Budapest sheet, which has a two headed eagle - why the difference?

A possible answer we came up with, initially suggested by Marco Benedetti, is that the Imperial arms granted to the Duchy of Milan shows a single headed Eagle (which is where all the decks with a single headed eagle come from); the Imperial arms granted to Ferrara (Budapest sheet) was a double headed eagle. So perhaps it is worth specifying the link between the use of the single headed eagle and the early hand painted Milanese decks?

(The Visconti were granted permission to quarter their coat of arms with the Empire by Emperor Wenceslas in 1397. Sforza who succeeded in 1447 used the same arms. Their Imperial quarter is a single headed eagle which appears in the first and fourth quarter, the Visconti viper in the second and third. The arms of Borso d'Este has the three golden lillies granted to Niccolo d'Este and his successors by King Charles VII of France in 1431 in the second and third quarter, and in the first and fourth quarter the Imperial double-headed eagle granted to Borso d'Este in 1452 by Emperor Frederick III upon naming him Duke of Modena and Reggio and Earl of Rovigo. The arms of Ercole d'Este are the same but with the addition of the Papal Keys granted to him in 1472 by Pope Sixtus IV upon renewing the investiture of the Duchy of Ferrara to Ercole d'Este and his descendents. The d'Este arms also had a white single headed eagle in the centre which is said to have been adopted by the d'Este in the 13th century during the struggles between the Guelphs and Ghibellines: identifying their allegiance with the Guelphs, contra the Imperial Black Eagle.)

sandyh wrote:
12 Jan 2019, 23:35
• Viéville innovations (not in Geoffrey, nor AP, nor Cary sheet, nor Italy) : Pope has crook. Lovers has mother-in-law; Justice has wing-back throne. Animals on Wheel (shared with Budapest) ; "Sol Fama" scroll on Temperance (Fama Vola on Chariot occurs in Orfeo Minchiate);
"Fama" is also the name given to the 14th trump in Alciato's list.
sandyh wrote:
12 Jan 2019, 23:35
• C-order commonalities (including Milan handmade) : Strength fights lion, rather than breaks pillar ; Judgment/Angel is trumpet over graves, not a city.
The AP has both broken pillar and lion (as does, for example, fortitude in the "Mantegna" prints).
sandyh wrote:
12 Jan 2019, 23:35
Viéville's numbers are in Susio's order, while Noblet's numbers are in Catelin Geofroy's order, also used by the Anonymous Parisian. Noblet must have had access of some kind to Geofroy, or to the AP, or to someone who copied from them, or he wouldn't have been able to number his cards in Geofroy's order. Did Noblet have Geofroy's cards or the AP's cards in front of him? Noblet, the great copier, may have chosen to ignore Geofroy's and the AP's images for some unknown reason of his own; all we can say is that there is no sign that he was influenced by the images of either one, not for even one card.
I recall reading and quoting from somewhere, though I can't find it now, either in a royal or some other commissioners request, instructions or card makers guilds rules, that cards should be of the same quality as those of Geofroys: that is, Geofroys cards were held as a standard of some kind, not necessarily of subject matter but of quality, but in being aware of the quality of his cards they must also per se be familiar with his subjects.
sandyh wrote:
12 Jan 2019, 23:35
• Geofroy innovations not copied ; Hanged man hangs by two legs, angle support on post; Death has shovel
I observed many years ago in TarotL (or was it LTarot?) that Geofroys hanged man bears a remarkable similarity to a depiction of a Jewish execution I found in 'Jews in Christian Art', from Thomas Murner's illustrated poem "Entehrung Maria", Michael Hurst later scanned the image and put it online, together with some of his extended research on the subject. See for example his thread on the subject on the AT forum:

sandyh wrote:
12 Jan 2019, 23:35
If I am right that the Cary sheet showed a Gemini on the Sun card, as it showed zodiac figures on the Moon and Star cards,
I agree with Ross in thinking your example shows that there is room for a gemini like subject, and as the other two have the familiar zodiac pattern I think it most probable.
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

### Re: The trump labels of France

#3
I imagine that if it has labels for Vieville, they are based on the names of the cards used in the poem on the Ace of Coins and Two of Cups which gives us the names of the cards as:
Oops.
Well this changes everything.
I overlooked the writing on the ace of coins and two of cups. Back to the drawing board.

The table I'm talking about, I found here:
http://dummettsmondo.blogspot.com/2015/ ... cards.html
It says there it is by Marco Ponzi on Tarot History Forum. Someone gave me the link to that THF page but I didn't find the table there, and now I don't have that link, although I suppose I can find it by a search on Marco Ponzi. I mostly wanted to know where these Viéville labels came from, which you have now told me. I found a lot of interest about them, although I couldn't guess where they came from. The S at the end of Lestoilles, for one.

It is this table:
westernorders2 trimmed.jpg (214.39 KiB) Viewed 9933 times

### Re: The trump labels of France

#6
I went over those cards, the ace of coins and the two of cups. Each line is followed, after "//", by the cards mentioned.
top ace coins RW.PNG (164.99 KiB) Viewed 9887 times
Pere . Sainct . Fait ~
Moy . Yustice . de ce . // VII - Yustice
Vielart . Ma . E . Baga .// XI - Vielart / (Fool) Ma / (I) Baga
Amoureux . de ~ ~ // VI - Amoureux
Ceste . Dame_Quy ~ // X - Wheel ?
Ace of coins bottom RW.PNG (193.96 KiB) Viewed 9887 times
Soit . Crye . Asonde
Trompe par tout // XX - Trompe
L'e monde depar // XXI - Monde
Le_Pape_La_Papesse .// V - Pape / II - Papesse
Lanpereur_Linperatr // IIII - Anpereur / III - L'imperatryce
yce Le Soleil // XIX - Le Soleil
Two of cups text.PNG (149.88 KiB) Viewed 9887 times
L'aLune L'Esetoilles // XVIII - La Lune / XVII - Les Etoilles
L'a . Foudre Prins // XVI - La Foudre
A Force Qui_soit // IX - Force
Pendue_Trannay // XII - Pendu / VII - Le Chariot
Au Dyable // XV - Dyable
--------------
I did a Google search on these lines, to see if anyone knew what they meant (the meaning they have as a poem, rather than their value for telling customers the names of the cards). No one seems to know. So here is yet another of my quixotic attempts to translate from a language I don't understand. Justice and Trumpet is already enough to suggest the Last Judgment, even if we didn't have Viéville's image of the dead rising from their graves. Of pictures of the Last Judgment, about half show Heaven and Hell; of those, almost all show Saint Peter at the door to Heaven. Saint Peter should be Pierre in modern French, and the Dictionnaire du Moyen Français (1330-1500) is not much help (it rarely is), but if I type "Pere Sainct" into the translation box it does say that it is a nom propre. So on that basis, I think this is a reference to Saint Peter.
[ Note added in edit : Perhaps it means, Saint Père, the Holy Father. However I think Saint Père does not mean "God the Father" in modern French.]

So for "Pere Sainct fait moy yustice de ce vielart ma e baga amoureux" something like:
Saint Peter makes my justice for the geezer, the fool, and the quack,
the lovers
Dict. du Moyen Français : http://www.atilf.fr/dmf/

And then we have: "de ceste dame qui soit crye"
"ceste" was a Roman boxing glove, which I guess is not it, "cester" could mean modern French trébucher, to stumble. "crye" might be "crier", to make an outcry, to make a public announcement. So perhaps, "the stumbling lady shouts out." I think the amoureux may be part of this line, rather than another on the list after the geezer, fool, and quack. So perhaps
For the lovers, Dame Luck stumbles in announcing their banns
Then "Asonde trompe par tout le monde depar" I thought this would mean "the trumpet sounds for the whole world to depart," but it is actually better than that. If "depar" is DÉPARER, that translates to modern French as "Détruire, démanteler (une construction)", or to English, destroy, dismantle. I didn't have much luck with "asonde." It might be assoudre, to absolve (of sins). Take away the initial A and "sonde" means to probe the depths, as in Shakespeare's "deeper than did ever plummet sound." "Son" does mean sound, but "son" has neither the initial A nor the final DE of "asonde." As a last resort I did a Google search, and found in Les ordonnances de François I, the sentence: "notiffier et proclamer a son de trompe et cry public..." Anyway, for all that, I think Asonde is the sound of the trumpet and not absolution. But that quote from the laws of François I (1494-1547), made me wonder of that "qui soit crye" in the line before is related. So now I forget about Dame Fortuna announcing the wedding banns, and make it
For the lovers Dame Fortune stumbles.
The sound of the trumpet announces the destruction of the whole world.
Les ordonnances de François I : https://www.persee.fr/doc/bec_0373-6237 ... 5_1_449757

Now a list of more who face the Judgment: "Le Pape La Papesse Lanpereur Linperatryce." Simple enough:
The Pope and Popess, The Emperor and Empress.
Perhaps not everyone knows (I didn't), but the sun and moon go dark on Judgment Day, and a third of the stars are swept from the sky by the tail of a great red beast. And so besides popes and emperors the trumpet announces the destruction of "Le Soleil L'a Lune L'es etoilles"
The sun, the moon, and the stars.
"L'a foudre prins a force qui soit pendue trannay au dyable." This might be, in modern French "La foudre prend par la force qui est pendu traîné au diable" Or something like
The strike of lightning takes the hanged man and carts him off by force to the devil.
All together:
Saint Peter makes my justice for the geezer, the fool, and the quack,
For the lovers Dame Fortune stumbles.
The sound of the trumpet announces the destruction of the whole world:
The Pope and the Popess, the Emperor and the Empress,
The sun, the moon, and the stars.
The strike of lightning takes the hanged man and carts him off by force to the devil.

### Re: The trump labels of France

#7
Google isn't very good for finding things on this forum. It is better to use its own search function. The trick is to find the right search terms. It's amazing what won't work. Sometimes when you get to something you have to read posts before it that quote other posts, and search for uncommon terms. I had no trouble, but then I sort of remember the discussion.

Read Steve's post at http://www.forum.tarothistory.com/viewt ... 263#p19263

### Re: The trump labels of France

#8
About the poem I translated as:
Saint Peter makes my justice for the geezer, the fool, and the quack,
For the lovers Dame Fortune has stumbled.
The sound of the trumpet announces the destruction of the whole world.
The Pope and Popess, The Emperor and Empress.
The sun, the moon, and the stars.
The strike of lightning takes the hanging man and carts him off by force to the devil.
First, as always, I welcome criticism by better linguists.

Here is the original, broken into lines, not justified by the cards, but into what I concluded were the meaningful clauses.
Pere Sainct fait moy yustice de ce vielart ma e baga
Amoureux de ceste dame qui soit
Crye asonde trompe par tout le monde depar
Le pape la papesse lanpereur linperatryce
Le Soleil L'a Lune L'es etoilles
La foudre prins a force qui soit pendue trannay au dyable.
This poem, naming all the trumps that get named at all, is about the Last Judgment from the first word to the last. I think this counts as some evidence for the way Viéville saw the set of trumps as a whole. He could have written a poem about Petrarch's I Trionfi, for example, but he didn't. In some ways it supports the "moral allegory" concept of the late Michael J. Hurst; that is, it is about the death of princes. However the emphasis here is on the Last Judgment; the thing itself and not a symbol for something else.

Finally, this is going to sound silly. It is silly. We wondered why Aquarius, Gemini, and Cancer were chosen (by the Cary Sheet artist, it seems) as the Zodiac signs to place on the Star, Sun, and Moon cards. For these sky objects, which get destroyed at the Last Judgment, why pick:
1) an emptier of water jugs into a river
2) twins
3) a red crustacean rising out of the sea

I've been through six illuminated manuscripts of the Book of Revelation, the source for the Last Judgment. I looked at all the pictures. Each manuscript has:
1) a great many pictures showing jugs of the water of life being poured out, into the Euphrates for one
2) pictures of the "two witnesses" who play a large role in the Book of Revelation
3) a red beast who rises from the abyss.

### Re: The trump labels of France

#9
mikeh:
Google isn't very good for finding things on this forum. It is better to use its own search function. The trick is to find the right search terms. It's amazing what won't work. Sometimes when you get to something you have to read posts before it that quote other posts, and search for uncommon terms. I had no trouble, but then I sort of remember the discussion.
1) Thanks very much for your help
2) I didn't know this forum had a search function
3) When I actually get around to doing it, searching Google with the string:
inurl:tarothistory.com Alciato Susio Piscina Viéville
the top search result is the page wanted, page 2 of "The order of trumps", and the text Google finds to match my search terms is: "I have highlighted a few cards that cause the differences between Alciato, Susio, Piscina and Vieville. BTW, the attribution of the poem to Susio ." That is, the very post in the thread wanted. Do you use the "inurl:" feature of Google?

### Re: The trump labels of France

#10
Noblet's labels, take 2. Here is the table with the Viéville column added; thanks to MikeH for telling me where these labels came from.

In the Italy column I've arranged the labels as Susio / Piscina // Alciato, however I've combined Susio and Piscina when they are the same, and I've translated Alciato's Latin to English, and I only put it in when it is different in meaning from the others.

For a few cards, Viéville is more Italian than the other Parisians: 1) Vielart for the Gobbo/Hermit card has the Italian meaning of old (at least "veillart" does) rather than hermit. 2) Baga recalls the Italian Bagato rather than French Bateleur. 3) Same for Ma recalling Italian Matto. It is not surprising that Viéville is somewhat more Italian in his labels, as he also returned to C-order Italy for his trump ordering, almost a hundred years after Geofroy introduced the order which otherwise prevailed in France. In general the three Parisians are similar. Did Noblet copy Viéville's labels rather than the AP's? Probably not, because if we look at: 1) Le Fou, 2) Le Bateleur, 3) Lermite, 4) Le Chariot (vs. Trannay), and 5) Le Jugement (vs. Trompe), we see three cards where Viéville departs from the AP by being more Italian, and two cards where Viéville's names are somewhat odd: Trannay instead Chariot and Trompe for Jugement. These odd names come from the fact that Viéville gives a poem rather than labeling for his cards. In all five cases, Noblet follows the AP rather than Viéville. So the Main conclusion still stands: Noblet copied the anonymous Parisian's labels, except one. Noblet did not get his labels from Viéville's poem.
table with JV column, top.PNG (22.1 KiB) Viewed 9859 times
table with JV column, btm.PNG (18.2 KiB) Viewed 9859 times
Labels after the AP, Viéville, and Noblet. Noblet copied his labels from the AP, and later French tarot of the southern tradition, the Tarot de Marseille, copied Noblet (via Madenié).

To the north, Hautot of Rouen and the four tarot makers of Flanders (Vandenborre, Gisaine, Galler, and Dupont) copied Viéville's images, although in Geofroy's order. Did they use Viéville's poem as a source of labels for their cards? Vandenborre has 1) "Le Fou" rather than Ma or Matto; 2) "Le Bateleux" (that final X is not French) rather than Baga or Bagato;. 3) "L'Ermite" rather than vielart; 4) "Le Chariot" rather than Trannay; 5) "LeJvgement" rather than "Trompe." (I believe the other Flemish makers are the same). So in all five cases where there is a difference between the AP and Viéville, they are like the AP, and did not take their card names from Viéville's poem. As before, we can't say whether these northerners copied Noblet or copied directly from the AP, except for the one label, Le Maison Dieu, where Noblet was original. For that label, they copied the AP, not Noblet.

So this influence graph still stands. I might add some Italian label influence on Viéville, but his labels (that is, his poem) did not influence anyone. I don't show any Italian image influence because we don't have the Italian images to compare, only XV Century handmade cards from a place, Milan, which later had C-order. I don't show Italian label influence because, as far as I can tell, the AP was not influenced by the Italian concepts of the cards, but drew his labels from the pictures. Viéville shows Italian card-name influence in his poem, but those concepts were not passed on.
influence graph.png (139.68 KiB) Viewed 9859 times
Here is the French innovation list again with corrections based on everyone's valuable suggestions:
• C-order commonalities (including Milan handmade) : Strength fights lion, rather than breaks pillar (The AP's Force stands on a broken pillar to fight the lion) ; Judgment/Angel is trumpet over graves, not over a city.
• -- Things not in any C-order : Star as 3 kings
• Geofroy innovations copied : C order changed by switching trumps XI and IX on either side of X, Il Gobbo becomes Hermit, with lantern rather
than hourglass.
• Geofroy innovations not copied : Hanged man hangs by two legs, angle support on single post; Death has shovel
• The AP innovations : labels: The Lovers rather than Love, Hermit rather than Old Man, The Judgment rather than The Angel;
• AP-Cary sheet similarities : Emperor in profile.
• Cary sheet innovations - zodiac figures of Aquarius, Cancer, and (if I'm right) Gemini for the 3 celestials.
• -- Hand-made Italy qualities passed to France, but not on Cary sheet : Death is standing rather than riding ;
• A Cary sheet noteworthy fact: Empress crown resembles virtue Temperance (the heads of Justice and Strength are not preserved).
• Innovations by Viéville or Cary sheet, whoever is first, but not in Geoffrey, the AP, nor hand-made Italy : Chariot is face on ; horse legs are mirror image; Fortuna's Wheel is at angle not face on; Hanged Man has fingers at the sides of head.
• Viéville similarities to Cary sheet, not in Geoffrey nor AP, but in hand-made Italy: Emperor sits in profile; Bagato is alone; Empress and Emperor have eagle shield; Chariot rider under canopy ;
• Viéville innovations (not in Geoffrey, nor AP, nor Cary sheet, nor Italy) : Pope has crook. Lovers has mother-in-law; Justice has wing-back throne. Animals on Wheel (shared with Budapest) ;
• Viéville similarities to some Italy (not in Cary, nor indeed in Geoffrey nor AP): Pope has attendants; "Sol Fama" scroll on Temperance ("Fama" name in Alciato, Fama Vola on Chariot occurs in Orfeo Minchiate);
• Noblet innovations- Devil standing on a pedestal; label "La Maison Dieu"; Temperance has wings; World figure is female (as often in Italy); Aquarius is female; Moon has dogs.
• Budapest similarities to France : Tower is a tower. El gobbo is hermit with lantern. Hanged man has rough-hewn scaffold. Emperor has eagle shield, but 2-headed, Wheel has animals.

### Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 17 guests