Re: The Fortune of Francois Isnard: A treasury of innovation --

#11
SteveM wrote,
Not sure what you mean by "why are these same number on different cards?" Which cards have the same numbers?
I meant decks http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b10537344z and
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b10511145z

They seem to be from the same molds and stencils, but with different card makers' names on them and only the latter have the cartomantic writing, so even if they were from the same print-run, they would be different copies of the deck.

SteveM wrote
Does Etteilla actually refer to "Jean Baptiste" Benoit or just "Benoit" ? What are the dates of activity for J-B? I have c1791 to 1820, if Etteilla mentions J-B specifically that would take it back a little earlier -- I've been trying to track down the original french text to confirm
No, not the original French text. DDD say, footnote 33, p. 273, "Jean-Baptiste Benoist worked until around 1783 (T. Depaulis, "Maitres cartiers strasbrougeois", Le Vieux Papier, no. 312 and 312)." The reference to Etteilla himself is their 1785b, pp. 34-5, and fn. 1. Their bibliography only lists one work for 1785, the 2nd Cahier. I do have that one, in xerox (thanks to Cerulean back in 2012 or so). He only mentions "le sieur Benoit". Here is the page.https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-c9rHCvU2nbo/ ... ge_020.jpg. So the primary source for Jean-Baptiste in particular seems to be Vieux Papier.

There would seem to be a yellow butterfly on the right side of the Star card of the first Isnard deck (I guess it's Isnard) you linked to, beneath the tree on a bush or stump; see http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/c ... id=3088915

The resolution isn't very high, but it seems good enough that Etteilla could have seen it there, whether it is really there or not.

It is definitely not on another deck, the one with the cartomantic notes. http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b1 ... .item.zoom

Etteilla's butterfly is also yellow, and beneath a tree, at least near a bush.
Image

Re: The Fortune of Francois Isnard: A treasury of innovation --

#12
mikeh wrote:
08 Mar 2018, 10:35
SteveM wrote,
Not sure what you mean by "why are these same number on different cards?" Which cards have the same numbers?
I meant decks http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b10537344z and
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b10511145z

They seem to be from the same molds and stencils, but with different card makers' names on them and only the latter have the cartomantic writing, so even if they were from the same print-run, they would be different copies of the deck.
Two very different decks, one is off the Isnard mold - a TdB with Juno and Jupiter, and Isnards Fortune figure on the four of coins (many Strasbourg card-makers used the same mold, simply stamping their own name on the two of coins); the other is the late 18th century Colmar copy of the Laboisse, which has Spring and Winter instead of Juno and Jupiter, and the Laboisse motif of the Oriental Pearl on the Four of coins --
SteveM wrote
Does Etteilla actually refer to "Jean Baptiste" Benoit or just "Benoit" ? What are the dates of activity for J-B? I have c1791 to 1820, if Etteilla mentions J-B specifically that would take it back a little earlier -- I've been trying to track down the original french text to confirm
No, not the original French text. DDD say, footnote 33, p. 273, "Jean-Baptiste Benoist worked until around 1783 (T. Depaulis, "Maitres cartiers strasbrougeois", Le Vieux Papier, no. 312 and 312)." The reference to Etteilla himself is their 1785b, pp. 34-5, and fn. 1. Their bibliography only lists one work for 1785, the 2nd Cahier. I do have that one, in xerox (thanks to Cerulean back in 2012 or so). He only mentions "le sieur Benoit". Here is the page.https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-c9rHCvU2nbo/ ... ge_020.jpg. So the primary source for Jean-Baptiste in particular seems to be Vieux Papier.
[/quote]

Ah, so Jean-Baptiste is sort of same period as widow and son, or is he the Son? Doesn't Etteilla say something about Benoit altering his father's block? So I thought it was Benoit Fil (of the widow and son)

edited to add: just read the page image you linked to : it is a note to the text in which he refers to Lutherans of the town of Strasbourg - two daughters of the first Benoit of Strasbourg, David, are listed as Catholics, so I presumed the family were catholics, but I suppose some may have changed their denomination --


Makes sense he is prior to the J Benoist with its revolution alterations -
I have seen reference to J-B being everything from 1720 to 1820, Allemagne says 1791-1818 - struggled to find a definitive answer!
There would seem to be a yellow butterfly on the right side of the Star card of the first Isnard deck (I guess it's Isnard) you linked to, beneath the tree on a bush or stump;
It is an FI (his initials are on the chariot, the king of coins, the petals between the 'dolphin' heads on the two of coins - the four of coins has his Fortuna motif) -- The butterfly you say you can see though think is an illusion of the low resolution, here it is in higher resolution, no butterfly:
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot
Attachments
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Re: The Fortune of Francois Isnard: A treasury of innovation --

#13
SteveM wrote:
08 Mar 2018, 12:09
It is an FI (his initials are on the chariot, the king of coins, the petals between the 'dolphin' heads on the two of coins - the four of coins has his Fortuna motif) -- The butterfly you say you can see though think is an illusion of the low resolution, here it is in higher resolution, no butterfly:
Perhaps Etteilla identified the Benoit as the [Isnard] deck described by Mellet, conflates it with Gebelin's description of a butterfly on the star card (on a different type of deck, and probably erroneously for what was actually a bird], and comes up with the disappearing butterfly on theBenoit/Isnard {which was never there} --

There are details in Mellets desciption that identify it as an Isnard engraved deck, such as used by Benoit, rather than some other TdB, especially his description of the four of coins:

"The four of coins is devoted to good Fortune, portrayed in the center of the Tableau with her foot on her ball & her veil deployed."
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: The Fortune of Francois Isnard: A treasury of innovation --

#14
Huck wrote:
07 Mar 2018, 13:10
SteveM wrote:
06 Mar 2018, 17:16
There is some mention of the engraver Francois Isnard in previous topic here:
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=821
Yes ...
Thierry Depaulis wrote in 2010 an article "When (and how) Tarot reached Germany" (IPSC 39/2, starting p. 64). The article is excellent, it helps here to develop a basic line of German/Austrian Tarock development.
This was my source. Do you have the article? I attempted to look it up, but I don't know, where it is gone to. MikeH knows a way to look older articles up.
No, I became aware of it in above mentioned thread when I was researching Isnard, I couldn't find it though the ask alexander thingy you mentioned, but through google search just now see that Depaulis has uploaded it at academiaDOTedu, with several other of his essays and articles --

https://independent.academia.edu/ThierryDepaulis
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: The Fortune of Francois Isnard: A treasury of innovation --

#15
Thanks for straightening me out on the identification of the two decks with numbers. Yes, they are quite different. But they do correspond to the two types of variations on the Tarot de Marseille which Etteilla uses as evidence that the ignorant card makers have changed everything from what it was and nothing nowadays is trustworthy.

He describes the "seasons" deck from Colmar on p. 20 of the 2nd Cahier, here:
Image
I do not know any deck where the Pope has changed to a "Spadassin", as he says is another mutation, but perhaps he means the Flemish decks with Capt. Fracasse (http://www.tarotpassages.com/vanden2.jpg) and Bacchus. But he does not seem to know about their Hanged Man reversed like his.

He says in the paragraph on p. 20, "que nous avons dit"--as we have said. He has talked earlier of this switch from first, Jupiter, to second, Papa, to third, Spadassin (and which he will now restore to card 1), but doesn't say any more than that (https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-xPLp3fa8gXM/ ... ge_006.jpg).

In the second place, the cards being described on pp. 33-34, which I posted a link to earlier (https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-c9rHCvU2nbo/ ... ge_020.jpg), with the footnote to "Benoit", are in fact a standard Besancon deck with Juno and Jupiter, as he indicates at the beginning of that description, on p. 32:
Image
These two references combined seems like more evidence that these particular examplars with the numbers were once owned by Etteilla and survived for that reason. I cannot find where he describes any other deck, except for the standard Tarot de Marseille. Perhaps you can find something in his descriptions that points to Isnard/Benois in particular. I can't. He goes on for another couple of pages about this deck, (https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-PEeKQxCRCTk/ ... ge_021.jpg
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-6Ph1aHJW9xY/ ... ge_022.jpg)
before starting on his own "rectified" version at the bottom of p. 39. But you might take a look.

The only specific detail of interest that I can see is his complaint that this particular deck is missing the butterfly. So either he saw another deck very like that one that did have what he imagined to be a butterfly, or he is merely kowtowing to Gebelin, who after all is one of the royal censors at this time, 1783, when he is submitting the manuscript for the second time, after being first disallowed. Or both.

Re: The Fortune of Francois Isnard: A treasury of innovation --

#16
mikeh wrote:
10 Mar 2018, 11:44

These two references combined seems like more evidence that these particular examplars with the numbers were once owned by Etteilla and survived for that reason.
Possibly, but I think unlikely -- and impossible for the Sarramon/Isnard with its Etteilla notes, it's printed from an altered block a la mode revolutionaire, and is dated beween c1792 - 1799, too late for it to have been owned by Etteilla --
Perhaps you can find something in his descriptions that points to Isnard/Benois in particular.
We know he knew the Benoit JJ, he mentions it in reference to the star [and elsewhere in relation to the figure of the world card]

Whether or not he is referring to Benoit's deck or not, it was most likely an Isnard, as Isnards blocks were used by most of the cardmakers of Strasbourg at the time, indeed since the 1730s at least -- J Benoit, J-B Benoit, Louis Carey and the Bernard Sarramon (with the Etteilla notes on it) are all from an Isnard mold -- I think Benoit widow and Son, Louis Carey and Bernard Sarramond were all cardmakers in Strasbourg around the time Etteilla was there --
The only specific detail of interest that I can see is his complaint that this particular deck is missing the butterfly. So either he saw another deck very like that one that did have what he imagined to be a butterfly, or he is merely kowtowing to Gebelin, who after all is one of the royal censors at this time, 1783, when he is submitting the manuscript for the second time, after being first disallowed. Or both.
His specific complaint is that Benoit has removed the butterfly when altering old blocks - but benoit used the Isnard blocks, which do not have a butterfly - also, if I recall right, the italian suited tarot blocks were kept at the tax regulators office and sheets printed from there in Strasbourg, only the French suited animal tarot molds were kept and printed by the cardmakers - the block was not Benoit's to alter -- if the Benoit did have a block, it would have been for fraudulent purpose (indeed, in a report on reducing fraud, the Benoit, widow and son, were singled out for particular attention because of suspicions of fraudulent practices, see Allemagne, Cartes de Jouer Vol 2)

As I wrote, I think it possible he is conflating Mellets description of the Isnard (we know it is an Isnard from Mellet's description of the four of coins) with Gebelin's misconstrued bird as butterfly of the Tarot de Marseille --
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: The Fortune of Francois Isnard: A treasury of innovation --

#17
mikeh wrote:
10 Mar 2018, 11:44

I do not know any deck where the Pope has changed to a "Spadassin", as he says is another mutation, but perhaps he means the Flemish decks with Capt. Fracasse
I am pretty sure he mean by the swordman the Spanish Captain of the Belgian decks, (though he has things mixed up a little!) - he also writes about the changes brought about by cartiers in the first lesson of Science: Lecons Theorique et Practique du Livre de Thot:-

p11,12

Les objets relatifs à leur manîere de voir em-
blèmatique; c’est-a-dire, que les- Arabes
plus encore que les Grecs,ont pu mettre
en place d’une lumiere, qu 'écarroît les
ténebres ou lé chaos , un Jùpiter; &
que les Italiens, ou mieux quelque secte
contraire à l’Eglise Romaine , auront
suppléé à ce second hyéroglyphe par la
peintre d’un Pape, lorsque lès Espa-
gnols crurent devoir, en place de ces:
trois objets, y mettre un spadassin; &
enfin à Colmer, prèsque récemment,
un Vieillard répresentaut l’Hiver ; ce
qui fait cînq changemens palpables seu-
lement à notre connoissance.

Il en est de même du huitieme Feuil-
let, qui offre , suivant les fabriques, au
lieu d’un superbe Jardin, une Junon,
une Papesse, une Courtisanne & la
figure du Printems.

p17:

Au lieu de la ceinture ou peplum,
comme l’admet de Gébelin, n’ayant vu,
nous le reperons que le Jeu de Cartes
fabriqué par Tourcaty, il fait que la
nudité foit cachée, ainfi qu’une plus
fidelle copie de ce hyéroglyphe l'a in-
diqué à Benoît de Strasbourg, par une
ceinture de feuillage, ou sans quoi
l’historique hyéroglyphique souffree une
nouvelle lacune. Nous revenons ce
feuillet , lorsque parmi les autres il vien-
dra au nombre que nous croyons le
véritable suivant les originaux, n’oubliant
pas de nous ressouvenir de prévenir les
Lecteurs qu’il ne faut absolument qu’un
bâton dans la main droite de la figure
principale, & non un de chaque main,
comme a fait Laurent de Belfort en
Alsace, en mal copiant ici Tourcaty,
quoique Laurent air retranché le Pape &
la Papesse, lorsqu‘aucun des Cartiers n’a
eu l’intelligeuce de jetter en bas le Pen-
dü, pour y suppléer la quatrieme Vertu,
la Prudence.
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: The Fortune of Francois Isnard: A treasury of innovation --

#18
So he does mention a few more decks!

Tourcaty is Tarot de Marseille. Laurent is Jean-Pierre Laurent, described with sample cards at http://secretsdutarot.blogspot.com/2013 ... ancon.html.

For the quotes in your last post, Steve, what are the page numbers? Also, it would seem that you are cutting and pasting from a text file of the book. If so, it is pretty good. Is it online somewhere? My Google won't give me anything except listings, but it works differently in different places. A searchable version would be handy to have.

Re: The Fortune of Francois Isnard: A treasury of innovation --

#19
mikeh wrote:
11 Mar 2018, 12:32
So he does mention a few more decks!

Tourcaty is Tarot de Marseille. Laurent is Jean-Pierre Laurent, described with sample cards at http://secretsdutarot.blogspot.com/2013 ... ancon.html.

For the quotes in your last post, Steve, what are the page numbers? Also, it would seem that you are cutting and pasting from a text file of the book. If so, it is pretty good. Is it online somewhere? My Google won't give me anything except listings, but it works differently in different places. A searchable version would be handy to have.
p11,12 & 17 (I'll edit them in - i'd lost track of them a little tidying of the copy)

I have a pdf file, it is searchable but the copy and paste isn't great, I had to tidy up every line of that post - I can send you a copy, just message me where you want it sent to --

Tourcaty is somewhat unique if I recall correctly, in being the only Marseille cardmaker known to have produced a type I and a type II Marseille (the type II has his phoenix emblem on the four of coins and two of cups; his type I has bacchus on a barrel on the two of cups (as does Chaffard and --- some other maker I can't recall off the top of my at the moment)) --

The secrets of tarot blog I have seen, confused by some of its datings (but interested in origins of thses in that it is connected with Houdoin and Yves, who know something of old cardmakers!)


Kenji also owns a Laurent deck reproduction, he has put images of the 22 trumps, some pips and a court card online at his site here:

http://muzendo.jp/blog/?p=8

As Kenji explained on ATF it is,

"a "pseudo-TdB (tarot de Besancon)". It does contain "Junon" & "Jupiter" cards (titles are omitted, though), but all the other cards are in Tarot de Marseille "type II" style.
The reason why it has J & J cards should lie in the location of Belfort.
It is an Alsatian city -- within TdB areas.'

[Thank you Kenji!]

SteveM

There is a partial deck of Laurent at the British Museum -
http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/c ... more-views
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

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