Re: The Pope with the donkey / "Oldest Tarot"

#61
I went through the Züricher Wappenrolle (1329 ?), which is mentioned in the trouble between Nürnberg and Öttingen.
http://www.e-codices.unifr.ch/de/snm/AG ... uence-1329

I found a lot of dogs of similar outfit and also 3 hares.

The Nuremberg dog, which the Burggrafen of Nuremberg bought in the year 1317 from the Regensberg family.

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*************

Six similar dogs

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***************

Hare use in this early heraldry

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******************

The Öttinger dog is not given in this text, as Bernhard Peter notes.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: The Pope with the donkey / "Oldest Tarot"

#62
Another side-step:

"Liber Fortunae", also known as "Experimentarius"
by Bernardus Silvester
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernardus_Silvestris
André Vernet, who edited Bernardus' Cosmographia, believed that he lived from 1085 to 1178. The most secure date in his life is 1147–48, when the Cosmographia was supposedly read to Pope Eugene III,[4] though it could have been finished before then, perhaps between 1143 and 1148.[3] There is some evidence that Bernardus was connected to Spanish schools of philosophy,[citation needed] but it seems likely that he was born and taught in Tours, because of the intimate descriptions of the city and the surrounding area found in the Cosmographia. Later medieval authors also associated him with that city.
A later version of the Experimentarius of the 3rd quarter of 14th century:
http://bodley30.bodley.ox.ac.uk:8180/lu ... =32&trs=37
At this place a relation between 20 birds and 20 astronomical bodies and the numbers I-XX is given:

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1. peacock - Sun
2. dove - Moon
3. partridge - Saturn
4. ‘pinzan’ - Jupiter
5. ‘turbo’ - Mars
6. swallow - Venus
7. sparrow - Mercury
-------
8. magpie - Draco
-------
9. ‘tudon’ - Aries
10. cock - Taurus
11. hawk - Gemini
12. ‘asturtius’ - Cancer
13. raven - Leo
14. ‘ganga’ - Virgo
15. ‘spicula’ - Libra
16. ‘caranus’ - Scorpio
17. ‘restite’ - Sagittarius
18. ‘alcolchi’ - Capricorn
19. hoopoe - Aquarius
20. owl - Pisces

The chosen astronomical figures are the common 7 planets and 12 zodiac-signs with one addition "Draco". If we compare theses to the 22 figures of astronomical content from the lot book of Bollstatter we see, that it is rather similar, but the row is skipped.

Bollstatter (and Fränkisches Losbuch) row
------------
(22 Pope missing)
(21 Emperor missing)
------
20. Sun
19. Moon
------
14-18. 5 planets
7-13. usual zodiac signs
6. Raven, 13th zodiac-sign
1-5. usual zodiac signs

The Raven in the Bollstatter source is exchanged at the position and against Draco. The others are all the same, though the row of the zodiac of Bollstatter is confused (possibly also the row of the 5 planets) against the straight and clear version of the Experimentarius.

In the system of the 32-animals the Order A seems rather confused:

Order A
----------------
01 Wag (zodiac Waage/Libra, FL 1)
--
[03 Esel (donkey, FL 22)]
--
05 Nachtigal (nightingale, FL 16)
--
07 Hierß (stag, FL 19)
--
09 Hunt (dog, FL 20)
10 Krebs (zodiac Krebs/Cancer, FL 4)
11 Leb (zodiac Löwe/Leo, FL 5)
12 Junckfraw (zodiac Jungfrau/Virgo, FL 7)
13 Zwihling (zodiac Zwilling/Gemini, FL 10)
14 Visch (zodiac Fische/Pisces, FL 8)
15 Weßrer (zodiac Wassermann/Aquarius, FL 9)
--
17 Schutz (zodiac Schütze/Sagitarius, FL 11)
18 Krannich (crane, FL 14)
19 Adler (eagle, FL 15)
--
22 Scorp (zodiac Scorpio, FL 12)
23 Einhorn (unicorn, zodiac Steinbock/Capricorn, FL 13)
--
25 Rab (Raven, 13th zodiac sign, FL 6)
26 Wieder (zodiac Aries, FL 2)
27 Ochß (Einhorn, zodiac Taurus, FL 3)
28 Kamel (camel, FL 17)
29 Sitich (parrot, FL 18)
[30 Haß (Hare FL 21)]
---

In Order B, however, we have, that ...

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... that the first 16 include all 12 zodiac-signs, 3 planets and the donkey-pope, who is exchanged against the Raven. The rest of the planets is distributed, likely with some intentions of the designer of the oracle-system, but we cannot say, that we understand his ideas.

Another comparable object we have with the Sepher Yetzirah: From the 20 astronomical figures of the Experimentarius 19 appear in the letter-attributes, the 20th figure "Draco" appears in the last card of the Sola Busca ...

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... and the trumps of Sola-Busca are discussed as a model with 10 pairs embedded in a 11th pair.
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1041

Draco appears also in the astrological systems of Geomancy ...

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The other 14 figures are given to the 7 planets, 2 figures for each planet ...
Carcer, Prison, Saturn
Tristitia, Sadness, Saturn
Acquisitio, Gain, Jupiter
Laetitia, Joy, Jupiter
Puer, Boy, Mars
Rubeus, Red, Mars
Fortuna Major, Greater Fortune, Sun
Fortuna Minor, Lesser Fortune, Sun
Puella, Girl, Venus
Amissio, Loss, Venus
Conjunctio, Union, Mercury
Albus, White, Mercury
Via, Way, Moon
Populus, People, Moon
http://www.renaissanceastrology.com/ast ... ncy.html#F

The Experimentarius work is "somehow" related to Geomancy, a figure is given at the begin of the text ...

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*********************

I've no precise idea, if the Experimentarius contains one lot book system or more than one. The list of 20 birds somehow must have been embedded in something else, otherwise it would make no sense. There is another list of 36 birds in the book, and each of them is connected to 12 lines of text and each line seems to be answer, in this style

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Further there are 11 wheels with 12 parts, from which ...

1 relates to spices
1 relates to flowers
2 relate to fruits
1 relates to animals
3 relate to birds (again 36 birds ... but it seems to be not always the same birds as on the other list)
3 relate to cities

Picture of the animals and a bird sphere:
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20 birds plus 36 birds makes 56 birds ... this leads me to think about a 3-dice-oracle with 56 possibilities, from which 6 have always the same number, 30 have twice the same number and 20 have always different numbers. 20 plus 36 might have with this a logical background.

But this idea might be not necessarily correct. I just don't understand this book and need better information.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: The Pope with the donkey / "Oldest Tarot"

#63
Differences in the Bollstatter text and in the printed edition of 1520 and in Fränkisches Losbuch

Checking the text of Bollstatter of the 22x22x22x22-system (c. 1450) against the row of the printed version of 1520 I note, that the row of animals (and possibly also other elements) show a slight difference.

The material to the 1520 edition is here:
http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db ... 06&seite=1
The material of the Bollstatter version is here:
https://bildsuche.digitale-sammlungen.d ... &nav=&l=en

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Difference between text of 1520 and the Bollstatter version


.. 1520 ......... Bollstatter
---------------------------
1. Libra .......... Libra
2. Aries .......... Aries
3. Taurus ........ Leo
4. Leo ............ Cancer
5. Cancer ....... Raven
6. Raven ........ Virgo
7. Virgo ......... Pisces
8. Pisces........ Aquarius
9. Aquarius ...... Gemini
10. Gemini ....... Sagittarius .
11. Sagittarius .. Scorpio
12. Scorpio ...... Taurus
13. Capricorn ... Capricorn
14. Crane ........ Crane
15. Eagle ........ Eagle
16. Nightingale Nigthingale
17. Camel ...... Camel
18. Parrot ...... Parrot
19. Stag ......... Stag
20. Dog .......... Dog
21. Hare ........ Hare
22. Donkey ..... Donkey

This looks like a writer error, either by Bollstatter or by the later printed edition.


Adding the material of the Fränkisches Losbuch

A research of the few material to the fragmented Fränkisches Losbuch doesn't offer total security of the row of the animals in this text.
The material of the Fränkisches Losbuch is here:
http://www.bildindex.de/document/obj00022941#|home

.. 1520 ......... Bollstatter ....... Fränkisches Losbuch
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Libra .......... Libra
2. Aries .......... Aries
3. Taurus ........ Leo
4. Leo ............ Cancer ............. 9r Leo (Marroch, Habakuk) (big doubts about position)
5. Cancer ....... Raven
6. Raven ........ Virgo
7. Virgo ......... Pisces .............. 10v Virgo (Römisch, Malachus)
8. Pisces........ Aquarius ............ 11v Pisces (Morgenland, Jeremias)
9. Aquarius ...... Gemini ...........
10. Gemini ....... Sagittarius ...... 13v Gemini (Nebukadnezar, Schweden)
11. Sagittarius .. Scorpio .......... 15r Sagittarius (Ismael, Turkey)
12. Scorpio ...... Taurus ........... 16v Scorpio (Spain, Theodosius)
13. Capricorn ... Capricorn ....... 18r Capricorn (India)
14. Crane ........ Crane
15. Eagle ........ Eagle ............. 20v (Tartary, Moyses = [eagle)
16. Nightingale Nigthingale
17. Camel ...... Camel ............ 23r Camel (Nubia, Abraham)
18. Parrot ...... Parrot ............ 24v Parrot (Zypern, Josef)
19. Stag ......... Stag ............. 26r Stag(Aragon, Samuel)
20. Dog .......... Dog
21. Hare ........ Hare .............. 28v (Emperor, Nathan =[Hare])
22. Donkey ..... Donkey ........... 30v Donkey (Pope, Jacob)

Recto and Verso notation is difficult to read for the modern mind. If one wants to get an overview, one better changes to modern notation with normal pages

17 - 9r Leo
18 ... missing Cancer; not enough place
19 ... missing Raven; not enough place
20 - 10v Virgo
21
22 - 11v Pisces
23
24 ... missing Aquarius ... enough place
25
26 - 13v Gemini
27
28
29 - 15r Sagittarius
30
31
32 - 16v Scorpio
33 ... (no free place for Taurus as in the 1520 version)
34
35 - 18r Capricorn
36
37 ... missing crane ... enough place
38
39
40 - 20v Eagle
41
42 ... missing nightingale ... enough place
43
44
45 - 23r Camel
46
47
48 - 24v Parrot
49
50
51- 26r Stag
52
53 ... missing Dog ... enough place
54
55
56 - 28v (Hare)
57
58
59 -
60 - 30v Donkey


The Fränkisches Losbuch confirms the Bollstatter text against the 1520 printed edition about the position of Taurus (there's no place between Scorpio and Capricorn.)
The position of Leo, however, makes it rather impossible, that Raven and Cancer appear between Leo as in the 1520 version. So zodiac sign Leo should have been positioned at Nr. 6 and before it (1-5) are Libra, Aries, Taurus, Cancer and Raven (the sequence is unknown).

So there are slight differences between all three orders.
As far the Frankisches Losbuch and the Bollstatter version are concerned, the connected attributes to Kings and Prophets are more or less identical.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: The Pope with the donkey / "Oldest Tarot"

#65
Hi Huck!

I'm very surprised - but also very glad - that you finally found your way to the 16 Geomantic Characters as the source for Tarot.
Now you may not understand right away what i mean when I say this because you were always opposed to "C"s model - but this is a reply especially to these posts in this topic:

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=663&start=50#p18365

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=663&start=50#p18372

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=663&start=50#p18395

You are so fixated on the hare and the hound - and you very well may have personal reasons for that ...
... that you do not seem to observe your sources as a whole and with a grain of salt.

What you have in your source from Heidelberg ...

http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit ... n2003/0078

... is a description of a corrupted and masked Christian version of ONE of the later corrupted Islamic varieties of Geomancy.
The original African (and from there it went through Egypt ... ) concept had only 16 characters and at the beginning of the "Tarotée - The Back-Door To The Secret" topic I gave several links for understanding 16 Visconti-Sforza Tarot "cards" as personas for these 16.

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1044

It is a "closed symbolic group" what means you can not get more as these 16 signs when you go by the system they are build upon.

That's why I say "corrupted" - because you can always invent new rules to go by - in this case the 32 (which is just the double of 16) hints that those 16 were "mirrored" in some way.
In Islamic times the system was corrupted for money and power.
When you have a complicated system you need schools - books - teachers ...

Uwe Topper (link below > ) describes this in short. He did Islamic studies at 2 Islamic universities.
Especially his remarks at the end of the book are interesting concerning "C"'s work.

Link to the short book by UT "C" advised on this tradition (to my knowledge not available in English):

https://www.zvab.com/servlet/BookDetail ... e%2Btopper

The system is known by many AKAs: Punktierkunst - Sandkunst - Sandbefragung - Erdbefragung - Ars Geomantia - Geomancy - ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geomancy

It is the oldest known oracle system to man and it has quite interesting mathematical properties.
Originally you needed only 1 finger and a patch of sand to invoke the spirit - later much more ...

From the Wiki link you may glean why the numbers came in contact with Geomancy in later times (the dice-like device > ) and numerology and astrology too.
Bolte's comment to this book:

[page] 312 Anhang
... says it quite clearly that the original title of that publication in another Latin version was: GEOMANTIA!
Only he - the COMMENTATOR- thinks that the title is MISLEADING!
So Ignorance is bliss once again thanks to Mr. Bolte :)

So you will not have luck in finding an original system that was build around 1450 and understanding the corrupted ones won't help you understanding "the oldest tarot" - but it could help to learn from the roots what was corrupted - to me that would only be of archaeological interest but maybe you like it?

When I said above "masked" you should know something about the ever changing political surroundings and preferences - so much is forgotten today:

Ottomans Versus Christians: Battle for Europe

http://putlockers.ch/watch-ottomans-ver ... ocker.html

Have a great new year!

Adrian

Re: The Pope with the donkey / "Oldest Tarot"

#66
The Bollstatter collection of lot books has various lot book versions.

I persecute the first with 22 animals, not that with 16 groups or 4 symbols (a later system, which I showed in this thread. The version with 32 animals (not from Bollstatter) includes the 22 animals, so there is a relation between this Bollstatter system and the 32-version. There is no connection to the Geomancy system.

Your argument with 16 Geomancy symbols makes no sense in this context ... and if it should do according your opinion, you've to explain this in detail with good arguments.

But thanks for your interest.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: The Pope with the donkey / "Oldest Tarot"

#68
Adrian Goldwetter wrote:OK. I will try do that. But it can take some days.
If I'm not able to that - in my opinion - I'll be back to and give a report on that too.

Adrian
Well, the system uses a zodiac (somehow with 13 signs, cause it likely related to a moon calendar, which needed 13 months) and the 7 planets. In the Bollstatter variant this 13th sign is filled with a raven or crow, somehow referring to Corvus, which as a star picture is close to Virgo. The 13th month was filled in once in 2-3 years (7 of them in 19 years cause of the Meton cycle), and such a calendar existed in Greek/Persian times, when Alexander conquered Persia. Kalippos of Kyzikos, a Greek, improved the Calendar in 330 BC.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Callippus
One of these (Persia or Greece ?) had the year start around September/October, and the 13th month was added after the 12th, so somehow always "in Virgo". For this reason - likely - Corvus as the 13th sign.
This calendar form died around 70 AD, as far I remember, but Jewish people continued with it for religious reasons as a second time-keeping.

If you read the Geomancy system as "12 houses + 7 planets + Draco" the Geomancy system is near to it. ... :-) but this doesn't change, that 22 is not 16.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: The Pope with the donkey / "Oldest Tarot"

#69
If you read the Geomancy system as "12 houses + 7 planets + Draco" the Geomancy system is near to it. ... :-) but this doesn't change, that 22 is not 16.
NO! Unfortunately you can not do that.
The 16 are from a totally different school of thought.
Much OLDER. Astrology - like in Sumer may be (where they had a somewhat different understanding - unlike western astrologers - was not invented in Africa at that time of its birth (beyond the solstices possibly).
"12 houses + 7 planets + Draco"
... are to my knowledge derived from the Babylonians. The ancient Egyptians have a different system that still is under heavy research! Today Geomancy is available mostly throughout the Islamic world on every bigger town market place in real-live with sheiks of the trade decorated with all its later and more modern ideas.

If you want to grab the first ground-rules how the original "raw" Geomancy worked and how the names for the characters were possibly arrived and from what mind-set this came I made some JPGs for explanation that are based on Uwe Toppers book:

From the "Tarotée - The Back-Door To The Secret" topic:
Added because I forgot this:

1-16 GODs:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/706svldbo6op ... Gy1Sa?dl=0
2-How the Geomantic ORACLE works
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/65099zo7i856 ... VqHma?dl=0

3-How the 16 Signs got their Names in the 1st place
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/fwzqndsoj5tb ... PUc2a?dl=0

4-Distribution & Variations
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/hyykxpkb4xjw ... vkV2a?dl=0

5-How the STRUCTURE of the 16 Sign is based on the 8-folded Star from the BEGNNING+2. Form
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/zzabpvkfqp8e ... gxHua?dl=0

6-Meaning is a matter of PERSPECTIVE
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/7bn39pseo1uv ... Kd-Wa?dl=0

All the attributions - like metals - astrology - planets - are later additions from other Greek and Islamic users and therefore are not fix and differ from author to author.

Adrian

Re: The Pope with the donkey / "Oldest Tarot"

#70
Sorry, this form of explanation says not much to me, I prefer mine ...

Once there is chess ...
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1087&p=16695#p16695

And there is I-Ching:

The I-Ching had subsystems. One of these used Kern-Trigramme ... I remember, that this was the expression of Richard Wilhelm. The lower Kern-Trigramm was made from line 2+3+4 and the upper Kern-Trigramm was made from line 3-4-5.
Actually this system reduced the 6 lines to 4 and somehow the I-Ching to the model of Geomancy.

1111 had so a nearness ---> hex1 (111111), hex 28 (011110), hex 43 (111110), hex 44 (011111)
0000 had so a nearness ---> hex2, hex 27, hex 24, hex 23
etc.

As any hexagram has a title and a meaning, one could now construct (for instance) ...

spring of 1111 = hex 43
summer of 1111 = hex 1
autumn of 1111 = hex 44
winter of 1111 = hex 28

One may conclude, that there is a context between Geomancy and I-Ching. But likely there is no way to decide, if I-Ching is the father of Geomancy, or Geomancy the mother of I-Ching.

...
Adrian Goldwetter wrote:
If you read the Geomancy system as "12 houses + 7 planets + Draco" the Geomancy system is near to it. ... :-) but this doesn't change, that 22 is not 16.
NO! Unfortunately you can not do that.
The 16 are from a totally different school of thought.
Much OLDER. Astrology - like in Sumer may be (where they had a somewhat different understanding - unlike western astrologers - was not invented in Africa at that time of its birth (beyond the solstices possibly).
"12 houses + 7 planets + Draco"
... are to my knowledge derived from the Babylonians. The ancient Egyptians have a different system that still is under heavy research! Today Geomancy is available mostly throughout the Islamic world on every bigger town market place in real-live with sheiks of the trade decorated with all its later and more modern ideas.
Geomancy is just a primitive form of divination, which might have origins at various places. I've read, even in America.
I agree, that the form of Geomancy, which embedded Western astrology in the interpretation, has other sources. But for the problem with the medieval lot books this form might be old enough.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

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