Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

#431
Insertion in the French version of my essay of the Comment of M Howard about the possible adequation of the division 22=1+4+7+10 with Type A :
Le Tarot Arithmologique
La séquence arithmologique du nombre pentagonal 22 = 1+4+7+10
Image

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5Hg6j ... sp=sharing

Publication of Andrea's site in the following weeks...

Texte ajouté :

Nota : M. Howard (Cf : http://letarot.it/page.aspx?id=608&lng=ENG) a, néanmoins, émis des réserves, à mon sens, pertinentes, quant à la non-adéquation de la division arithmologique 22=1+4+7+10 avec l’ Ordre A - en excluant de ce dernier le Tarot sicilien tardif et en positionnant le Pendu à l’alpha de la Quatrième enceinte- réserves que je traduis in extenso ci.
Finalement, est-ce évident que le Type A soit une exception à la division 1+4+7+10 ?
L'ordre A de Bologne possède les “4 Papi”, tous avec un pouvoir identique de remporter le pli ; ceci ressemble beaucoup au groupe de 4 d’ Alain. Dans leur ordre de succession, les 3 Vertus font, toutes trois, partie du troisième groupe, associé au nombre 7 ; c’est là le nombre traditionnellement associé aux Vertus, les 4 cardinales et les 3 théologiques. Mais, à positionner les trois, ensemble, avant le Pendu en fait le 13ème [en position ordinale] - le troisième groupe possède alors un trop grand nombre de cartes et le quatrième, trop peu, même si le Fol est inclus. Voilà pourquoi Alain déduit que le schéma “arithmologique” ne correspondrait pas à l'ordre A.
Toutefois, si le Pendu est mis au commencement du quatrième groupe, alors tout devient correct. Est-ce erroné conceptuellement? La thématique de la dernière section est celle de l’ascension au Ciel. Dans les premières cartes de Type A (le “Charles VI”, le Feuillet Rosenwald, le Feuillet Rothschild), l’homme y est représenté agrippant des sacs de monnaie. Ceci suggère Judas et ses “30 pièces d’argent” pour lesquelles il avait trahi Jésus. Perçue de cette façon, cette carte ne constitue pas seulement l’exception aux normes des ordres B et C, mais est impliquée dans l’ascension au Ciel, qui constitue le thème régissant la dernière section. Dans ce cas, la division 1+4+7+10 correspondrait encore pour l’ Ordre A.
En fait, l’argument de Dummett pour ses trois groupes ne peut spécifier en soi ni à quel groupe le Pendu appartient, ni celui dont fait partie la Mort. Dummett dit (1980 p.394)
“Ignorant les Vertus, nous pouvons dire que la séquence des Atouts restants se divise en trois segments, un initial, l’autre médian et un dernier - toute variation dans la succession ne prenant place seulement au sein de ces différents segments”.
Toutefois, là où un groupe se termine et là où le suivant commence ne peut être déterminé par cette méthode -si une carte est invariablement à la même place dans la séquence. Ainsi Dummett positionne la mort dans le dernier groupe dans Game of Tarot, 1980 (p. 399) et dans Il Mondo e L'Angelo, 1993 (p.174) puis dans l’avant-dernier groupe dans “Tarot Triumphant”, 1986 (p.47). La même chose peut être dite à propos du Pendu, qui précède immédiatement la Mort dans tous les ordres - l'ordre Sicilien excepté. Il est très probable que le Tarot y fut introduit en 1633-4 par un certain Gouverneur du 17è siècle (Dummett 1980, p. 376) ; il y a là plusieurs innovations qui ne se retrouvent pas dans d’autres jeux de tarots, même si, peut être, reflétant des séries emblématiques du 17è siècle ailleurs en Italie (1980 p. 3,78). Il n'y a aucune manière de savoir pourquoi et quand l ‘ Hermite fut immédiatement avant la Mort, avec le Pendu, avant l ‘ Hermite (1980, p. 375). On peut donc ignorer ce fait car très probablement non propre aux ordres du Tarot pré-17è siècle. Contrairement à tous les autres Pendus des premiers ordres A, celui-ci, ni ne tient de sacs d’argent ni n’est pendu par les chevilles, la posture caractéristique du traître. L’ allégorie avait été perdue.
http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

#432
Alain wrote,
The hierarchy between the Comtesse Claire de Gonzague, first lady of the futur Queen Anne de Bretagne makes me give the preference to Anne de Bretagne as the Kneeling Lady
- even if she looks more similar to Claire de Gonzague's portrait (my first thought)
- even if Anne de Bretagne is a young teenager in 1491 (my second thought)
This jump does not seem to me to be justified. The key event can be the 1491 marriage, with the kneeler-lady as the groom's mother (Charlotte), a memorial to her, dead not that long before, age 42, in middle age, like the lady on the kneeler, dead in fact in December of the same year (1483) that her son is crowned king, even though a minor. Why can't Charles then be the crowned dauphin/dolphin? To merit the dolphin, he only has to have been the dauphin.

In that case, it can't be for Louis XII, who was never a dauphin.

It seems to me that Mantua c. 1480 would have a Ferrara-inspired deck, due to Isabelle's influence. The Goldschmidt is more a Milan-inspired deck, mainly because of the Bishop, which resembles Hope and Star. The falconer is the Fool. The lady at the kneeler is the Popess. Charlotte, being from Savoy, niece of Filippo's wife, would have known the Milan tarot.

Alain wrote
Goldschmidt card Lady with the Castle /
Hypothesis : Anne de Bretagne and first lady behind Claire, Comtesse de Montpensier?
Very nice. Good guess, for the young woman behind Anne. How old is Claire in 1491? Ah, yes, 27. That works, I guess.

Then we could have two dauphins, for both ladies with the castle, husbands of both.

I don't think the lady with the castle is the same lady as the one at the kneeler. So mother and daughter-in-law-to-be.

Who is the girl with the lady on the kneeler? Is she Anne of France, at the age she would have been when Charlotte, her mother, was alive? Does her headdress mean anything? She was born at Genappe, Brabant, when her father was waiting for his father to die. Any association to the headdress? It looks somehow Dutch.

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

#433
mikeh wrote:Alain wrote,

I don't think the lady with the castle is the same lady as the one at the kneeler. So mother and daughter-in-law-to-be.

Who is the girl with the lady on the kneeler? Is she Anne of France, at the age she would have been when Charlotte, her mother, was alive? Does her headdress mean anything? She was born at Genappe, Brabant, when her father was waiting for his father to die. Any association to the headdress? It looks somehow Dutch.

Mikeh

Your observation merits credit.
I had seen the same persons on both cards - Claire de Gonzague as the second girl attending the two Ladies : Kneeling Lady and Lady with the castle.
But it's true that Kneeling Lady could well be a Trump (Popess) and Lady with the Castle a court card.
Your hypothesis of a "memorial" allusion to Charlotte de Savoie as Kneeling Lady is quite interesting also.



You wrote :
It seems to me that Mantua c. 1480 would have a Ferrara-inspired deck, due to Isabelle's influence. The Goldschmidt is more a Milan-inspired deck, mainly because of the Bishop, which resembles Hope and Star. The falconer is the Fool. The lady at the kneeler is the Popess. Charlotte, being from Savoy, niece of Filippo's wife, would have known the Milan tarot.

That's another good point.

What's left of my hypothesis ?
1. Goldschmidt card Lady with the Castle /Anne de Bretagne and first lady behind Claire de Gonzague , Comtesse de Montpensier ?
and
2. Key event 1491 : wedding of Anne de Bretagne with Charles VIII /


[/i]
You wrote :
Who is the girl with the lady on the kneeler? Is she Anne of France, at the age she would have been when Charlotte, her mother, was alive? Does her headdress mean anything? She was born at Genappe, Brabant, when her father was waiting for his father to die. Any association to the headdress? It looks somehow Dutch.


I cannot say. But if the headdress would be Dutch, this would it opens another inquiry that would bring us to Maximilien de Hasbourg.
Anne de Bretagne is still married by procuration with Maximilien de Hasbourg while, Charles himself is engaged since long with Marguerite d'Autriche, the daugter of Maximilien.
Anne de France educates the young daugter of Maximilien and charles VIII was really found of her.
Par la suite, en 1477, après la mort de Charles le Téméraire, Louis XI entend prendre sous tutelle sa fille et héritière Marie de Bourgogne, et la fiancer à Charles pour réunir les états bourguignons à la France. Marie est pourtant souveraine, apte à régner sur ses états, et a en outre 13 ans de plus que Charles. Elle choisit donc d'épouser l'archiduc Maximilien d'Autriche. S'ensuit une invasion des possessions bourguignonnes par les troupes françaises, une guerre qui durera jusqu'à la fin de 1482. Mais la duchesse Marie meurt accidentellement, laissant deux enfants en bas âge. Maximilien, qui n'est que leur tuteur, et non l'héritier lui-même, préfère signer le traité d'Arras qui scelle la paix, et offre Marguerite de Bourgogne, 3 ans, fille de Maximilien et Marie, en fiançailles à Charles. Ce traité est cependant une violation du traité de Picquigny qui stipulait le mariage de Charles avec Élisabeth d'York, ce qui entrainera une nouvelle bataille anglo-française, au cours de laquelle la marine française vaincra les corsaires anglais3. Marguerite de Bourgogne vivra cependant à la cour de France avec son fiancé qui l'aimait beaucoup3, mais malgré cela, et par calcul politique également, Charles ne l'épousera finalement pas.
À la fin de la vie de Louis XI, Charles et sa petite fiancée vivent confinés à Amboise, sur l'ordre d'un père devenu paranoïaque4. Celui-ci, sentant sa fin approcher, lui inculque quelques notions de gouvernement à partir de 1482. Il lui conseille de conserver la majorité du personnel royal pour faciliter la transition (chose que lui-même n'avait pas faite)5, et lui demande d'accepter la tutelle de sa sœur Anne de Beaujeu. Louis XI s'éteint le 30 août 1483, et Charles devient roi à 13 ans sous le nom de Charles VIII.

Anne de France is the Regent : À la mort de Louis XI en 1483, Charles VIII a treize ans et demi, la majorité royale étant fixée alors à quatorze ans. Anne de Beaujeu exerce la régence, de 1483 à 1491 avec son mari.
She also decides of Charles VIII wedding with Anne de Bretagne and by this decision the rupture of the engagement with Maximilien daugter.
Conséquence de la Guerre folle, elle marie son frère Charles VIII à Anne de Bretagne, ce qui parachève l'expansion territoriale accomplie par Louis XI en préparant le rattachement du duché de Bretagne à la Couronne.
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_de_Bretagne.

Here also , we have not a Bishop but a Pope that will have to decide of the annulation of the wedding of Anne de Bretagne and Maximilien - and he would have been considered as a Traitor from a German point of view...
Annulation du mariage d'Anne et Maximilien. Le pape se résigne à la signer (et à l'antidater) trois mois après.
This is Innocent VIII (btw the same who will condem the thesis of Pic de la Mirandole) :
Ce mariage discret est conclu en urgence car il n'est validé qu'après coup par le pape Innocent VIII qui se décide, en échange de concessions appréciables, à adresser à la cour de France le 15 février 1492 l’acte d’annulation antidatédu mariage par procuration d'Anne avec Maximilien et la dispense concernant la parenté au quatrième degré d'Anne et de Charles par la bulle du 15 février 1492.

Huck?
Mikeh suggested that the the headdress of the girl attending the Kneeler Lady of the Golschmidt card seems to be Dutch ...
If so, in the hypothesis actually studied, this could link to Anne de Bretagne who is still married by procuration with Maximilien de Hasbourg while, Charles VIII himself is engaged since long with Marguerite d'Autriche, the daugter of Maximilien.
I know that this is not your take and that you stand for another hypothesis but could you confirm or infirm the German looklike of the headdress?
http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

#434
An image from my youth:
Image

Not German, more to the west, North Sea.

Margaret of Austria has appeared often in tarot history, not for her tarot but for what seems to be the allegorical painting later dubbed "the fortune teller", i.e. https://marygreer.wordpress.com/2009/11 ... %E2%80%9D/

While some think she is just playing cards, even there is no indication of others at the table, I think she is telling everyone "It's not in the cards," meaning there are no kings or jacks in her hand, meaning she's not going to marry; she's going to rule by herself. She didn't and she did.

Also on a kneeler, but too late and no facial resemblance:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... A23613.jpg

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

#435
mikeh wrote:An image from my youth:
Image

Not German, more to the west, North Sea.

Margaret of Austria has appeared often in tarot history, not for her tarot but for what seems to be the allegorical painting later dubbed "the fortune teller", i.e. https://marygreer.wordpress.com/2009/11 ... %E2%80%9D/

While some think she is just playing cards, even there is no indication of others at the table, I think she is telling everyone "It's not in the cards," meaning there are no kings or jacks in her hand, meaning she's not going to marry; she's going to rule by herself. She didn't and she did.

Also on a kneeler, but too late and no facial resemblance:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... A23613.jpg

Hi Mikeh



Yes : https://marygreer.wordpress.com/2009/11 ... %E2%80%9D/

Image


"by the age of twenty-four she had already had a betrothal broken by France’s Charles VIII,"
Well, this is an ERRATA.
She's born in 1480 and the wedding is 1491.: she's 11 years old in 1491

On this painting; she's 28 : 1508
Image

The central woman is thought by some to be Margarethe (Margaret) of Austria and Savoy (1480-1530) (see also here). Born in Flanders, she was daughter of the Holy Roman Emperor, Maximilian I and Mary, Duchess of Burgundy. Her step-mother was Bianca Maria Sforza, daughter of Galeazzo Maria Sforza, Duke of Milan, by his second wife, Bona of Savoy, and granddaughter of Bianca Maria Visconti (m. Francesco Sforza) for whom the Visconti-Sforza Tarot was made.

But, I thnk also, no reference to 1491. So too late...
Btw, Marie de Bourgogne her mother, wife of Maximilien Ier. She died in 1482 during a Falcon hunting : Marie meurt accidentellement le 27 mars 1482, des suites d'une chute de cheval dans la forêt de Wijnendaal, lors d'une chasse au faucon en compagnie de son époux
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie_de_Bourgogne
Image


If we have to get back to the hypothetical Dutch headdress, then maybe the mariage in 1494 with Blanche Marie Sforza with Maximilien ...
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blanche-Marie_Sforza


Thinking aloud again : about a late Milan origin ...

1491 18 janvier(?) septembre ('?) Mariage de Ludovic Sforza et Beatrice d'Este
1491 6 décembre Mariage de Charles VIII avec Anne de Bretagne.
1492 mai Alliance de Charles VIII avec Ludovic Sforza contre le roi de Naples.

Another story : wedding of Ludovic Sforza and Beatrice d'Este in the same year : 1491.

"If the cards are indeed after the French incurion into Italy of 1494, there is also Shephard's proposal, which Dummett does not oppose, p. 73, that they were made for Cesare Borgia, of Spanish descent, with the Dolphin on one of the cards an allusion to the duchy in which he was a count, Delphinato)" :
(Shephard also believes that the human figures painted on the Goldschmidt tarots are almost all portraits from life. In his opinion, the pack was created for Cesare Borgia in 1500; he sees in the crowned dolphin an allusion to the Duchy of Valentino in Delfinato, and believes that card is equivalent to the Ace of Coins, as well as the Tozzi group snake. This would explain, in his view, the Batons of the Spanish type, because Cesare was well known as of Spanish ancestry. This type of Batons was not still widespread in Spain, but we know from the folio in Barcelona that it existed at that time.)"

M Howard http://dummettsmondo.blogspot.fr/

Ludovic épouse, le 18 septembre 1491, Béatrice d'Este (1475-1497), fille d'Hercule Ier d'Este (1431-1505), duc de Ferrare, de Modène et de Reggio d'Émilie, et d'Éléonore de Naples (1450-1493), elle-même fille de Ferdinand Ier de Naples et d'Isabel de Claremont.
En janvier 1492, une ligue défensive est formée entre Ludovic et le roi de France, Charles VIII.
Pour s'attirer les bonnes grâces de l'empereur Maximilien Ier dont le mariage avec Anne de Bretagne a été annulé en 1491, Ludovic lui offre en mariage sa nièce Blanche-Marie âgée de 22 ans. Le mariage a lieu le 16 mars 1494 ; il en coûte à Ludovic 400 000 ducats soit 300 000 ducats pour la dot et 100 000 ducats destinés à assurer son investiture au titre ducal.


Gisants de Ludovic and Beatrice
Image


Les aspirations de Ludovic au titre ducal sont satisfaites le 22 octobre 1494 avec la mort mystérieuse de Jean Galéas

Beatrice d'Este, Milan and Ferrare / Mantoua :
Image


https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%A9atrice_d%27Este

Elle était fille d'Hercule Ier d'Este (1431-1505), duc de Ferrare, de Modène et de Reggio d'Émilie, et d'Éléonore de Naples (1450-1493), elle-même fille de Ferdinand Ier de Naples et d'Isabel de Claremont.
Sa sœur aînée était Isabelle d'Este (1474-1539) qui épousa le marquis de Mantoue, François II.
Elle fut fiancée à l'âge de cinq ans à Ludovic Sforza dit le Maure (il Moro) (1452-1508), duc de Bari, d'abord régent puis duc de Milan, qu'elle épousa le 18 janvier 1491. Elle avait été soigneusement instruite et s'entoura d'hommes illustres, poètes et artistes, tels que Niccolo da Gorreggio, Bernardo Castiglione, Bramante, Léonard de Vinci et beaucoup d'autres, pour former une des cours les plus splendides d'Italie.
En 1492, elle fut ambassadrice pour son mari qui désirait être reconnu comme duc de Milan, en se rendant à Venise. Cependant, il leur fallut attendre le décès de Jean Galéas II, en 1494, pour que Ludovic remplace son neveu.
http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

#436
I wasn't proposing Margaret of Austria as connected with the Goldschmidt, just somebody connected with the family and with cards (and perhaps cartomancy of the most common kind). However she was in fact betrothed to Charles VIII until age 10, in 1490. Mary Greer was not in error. The part you quoted was the beginning of a long sentence going through all her disappointments with men up to age 24, which started when she was 10.

I was thinking of Anne of France as a candidate for the "Dutch girl", since she was born in Brabante. She would have been the right age (22 in 1483) to accompany her mother Charlotte of Savoy on the "kneeler" card, before the latter's death in that year. On the other hand, perhaps indeed she could be Margaret; she was age 11 in 1491, and also was born in Flanders. She also resembles the girl on the card. But she was "out of the picture" by then.
Image

Image

I don't know how much we can trust paintings as likenesses to go by. If you look at the two paintings of Anne of France at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_of_France, one face is lean and severe, the other roundish and innocent. The former is with her daughter and so in around 1500. The latter, which resembles the card more, might be 10 or 15 years earlier, before Anne ousted her from power and influence.

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

#437
mikeh wrote: I don't know how much we can trust paintings as likenesses to go by.
Isabelle d'Este, for a commision for a portrait, wrote the artist how she could not stand sitting for a portrait, and that her sister would provide him with a description :)

So about as reliable as a police artists sketch!?
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

#439
Nevertheless, as Mikeh noted :
- "Shephard also believes that the human figures painted on the Goldschmidt tarots are almost all portraits from life" - but Shepard has another identification for these Goldschmidt cards

- and Dummett ( if we leave the portrait ressemblance apart) :
"Dummett has more to say about the Goldschmidt cards, commenting on two articles in the 1980s by John Shephard ("The Goldschmidt Sun", The Ploying Card, Vol XVI, 1987, pp. 37-40; "The Lance and the Fountain: some Variant Forms of the World", The Playing Card, Vol XVII, 1988, pp. 54-7). He likes Shephard's idea that the subject of a card can be identified by what is shown on top. So for example when there are gravestones on the bottom and a sun at the top, the subject is the Sun. The idea also fits with the principle of "immediate recognition" for the players"

http://dummettsmondo.blogspot.fr/


NB ; In this case, the anchor above in the "Pope" Goldschmidt could be :
- either a reference to Saint Clement (Steve's finding)
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=691&start=40#p17908
- euther a reference to Hope /Despair (Mikeh's link to the CY Hope card)
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=691&start=50#p17923
http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

#440
BOUGEAREL Alain wrote: NB ; In this case, the anchor above in the "Pope" Goldschmidt could be :
- either a reference to Saint Clement (Steve's finding)
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=691&start=40#p17908
- euther a reference to Hope /Despair (Mikeh's link to the CY Hope card)
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=691&start=50#p17923
In reference to allegorical depictions, lady with castle was also a version of Temperance.
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

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