Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

#391
BOUGEAREL Alain wrote:Yes maybe...
Needs checking.
But the motifs are present and there is the creativity of the artist...

What about the datation of the Cards? This should make the choice between the 3 hypothesis clearer...

50 years is a long while -even if the pigments analys are not 100% sure...
Yes, the date of 1461 fits better to the "mid of 15th century", no doubt.

What makes me prefer the date of c. 1510 ...

The whole touches the background, that I think, that a specific part of the Sforza cards was made for the crowning of Massimiliano Sforza in 1512 ... after the French troops were driven out of Italy for a short time.

The specific type of deck uses a motto of Isabella d'Este at the Ace of Cups: "Nec spes, nec metu". It was adopted by Isabella around 1504/05 (a use of somebody else in an earlier time wasn't found) and between 1504-1512 nobody had a political reason to produce Sforza cards. Lodovico Sforza was in prison in France, where he died, and his son Massimiliano lived with poor expectations in Germany.
In 1512 the situation changed. Isabella's court in Mantova had variously served as diplomatic meeting point in the war of 1508-1512, Isabella's husband became prisoner in Venice and Isabella could develop a great role in the negotiations herself. She became the great lade of Italy in this period.

In 1512 the war turned against France, and in short time French troops were driven out of Italy. Massimiliano was called to Italy, and Isabella had the honor to organize the triumphal celebrations, between them - as it seems - a production of a new type of Sforza Trionfi deck. This deck used the Visconti Viper as an additional card, also it seems, that another specific card was varied.

Image


The both exchanged cards.

A new deck was found, in which the both cards were replaced, one with a heraldry design for Croatia (replacing the Visconti viper - possibly), the Ace of coins with another person.

A person "from Croatia" was identified, who had the merit to have fought in the war before on the side of emperor Maximilian. The person was brother-in-law to cardinal Gurk, who had intensively cooperated with Isabella d'Este at this opportunity as the representative of emperor Maximilian.

So there seems to have been the action, that the deck was occasionally modified to please new owner of the deck. Possibly such personified decks were distributed to persons, who were friendly in the activities to reinstall the Sforza reign. As a playing card the dolphin card looks strange like the Visconti viper and the Croatian heraldry (a chessboard field in red and white (similar to the modern Croation shield ...

Image


... ).

Image


Tizzone stood on the side of emperor Maximilian (and so on the side Massimiliano, new duke of Milan in 1512), and he suffered, when the French soldiers came back in 1515.

Tizzone might have developed his own ideas with the Goldschmidt cards, inspired by the production of Isabella d'Este. Possibly he incorporated heraldry of the local Piemontese region in the card deck ... which makes it so difficult to identify the owner of the card deck by the heraldry components.

Milan isn't very far from Vercelli and Desana. Actually Vercelli belonged to Milan till 1427, then it came to Savoy with the wedding of Filippo Maria Visconti to the Savoy daughter, his second wife.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

#393
It's enough to see 2 possible solutions to the Goldschmidt question.

And the Dauphin dolphin hadn't really a crown, that's a reason to keep the question in doubts.

Naturally ..... in 1461 Louis XI was a persecuted dauphin. Perhaps he had then a reason to have the dolphin painted in a different way, just then. Who knows ... a few months later his father died and the situation changed.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

#394
I understand your reasons and probably are you right.
You're a better historian than I.
So I respect your hypothesis.
But it remains for me an open tpopic.
My hypothesis is still the Crowning of the French Dauphin.

The Delphin is the Dauphin of France
And the Crowning is a direct reference to his becoing King 'which will finally occur in august 1461)

I read the Card as talking about the right or the proximity of a Dauphin being cornoated.
Who else?

So probably made in Burgundy, while his stay , after his mariage with Charlotte de Savoie (1451) and before his Coronation as King (1461)

Datations are my way : mid XVth century.
Web page : http://letarot.it/page.aspx?id=23&lng=eng

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

#396
The Third hypothesis : Louis XI Dauphin de Francec exil auprès du Duc de Bourgogne, Philippe le bon
post 01-03/1451 - 30/08/1456 - ante 15/08/1461
Image

Secrètement allié depuis 1446 au duc de Savoie, Louis, qui est veuf depuis 1445, épouse la fille de ce dernier, Charlotte de Savoie – richement dotée de 200 000 écus –, le 9 mars 1451, malgré l'opposition de son royal père.
Également allié à l'usurpateur du duché de Milan, Francesco Sforza,
achetant Monaco aux Grimaldi, entretenant contre Charles VII des relations diplomatiques étroites avec les ducs de Bourgogne et d'Alençon et avec le comte d'Armagnac, Louis est privé alors de sa pension royale (tandis que le duc de Savoie est contraint à la soumission en octobre 1452)


Redoutant une intervention en armes des troupes de Charles VII, il quitte secrètement le Dauphiné le 30 août 1456 et se réfugie à Genappe (en Brabant) auprès du duc de Bourgogne, Philippe le Bon, qui lui accorde une pension annuelle de 36 000 livres. Il intrigue contre Charles VII, qui meurt le 22 juillet 1461, convaincu d'avoir été empoisonné sur l'ordre de son fils. Louis a alors trente-huit ans.

Dès la mort de Charles VII, Louis rentre en France et est sacré à Reims, le 15 août 1461.

http://www.larousse.fr/encyclopedie/per ... _XI/130423

The event represented is before the Coronation :
after 1451 probably 1456 (Exil auprès du Duc de Bourgogne) and before 1461

If it was at this date 1461 or after, then it would have been the Crown of France represented...


La Carte renvoie à un Dauphin :
But the Card represents a Dauphin Delphin
Image


Image



The Delphin is the Dauphin of France
And the Crowning is a direct reference to his becomoing King or right and legitamacy to be (which will finally occur in august 1461)

In another words, it is not a Crowned dauphin but a Dauphin about to be or in right to be Crowned
And this is precisely Louis XI's story at these times...


I read the Card face value, not as a commemoration but as a legitimacy of the Dauphin's claim to become King, as talking about the right or the proximity of a Dauphin being coronated.
Who else?

So probably made in Burgundy, while his stay (1456-1461) , after his mariage with Charlotte de Savoie (1451) and before his Coronation as King (1461)
The Duke of Bourgogne as well as the Dauphin surely would emphase such a legitimacy ...

DAUPHIN LOUIS (FUTUR ROI LOUIS XI) en DAUPHINÉ (1447-1456) :

Depuis qu’en 1349 le dauphin Humbert II, sans héritier, a légué son territoire au fils aîné du Roi de France, celui-ci porte le titre de "Dauphin" et il est donc le suzerain de cette province. En 1355 le traité de Paris met fin aux guerres avec le comte de Savoie et fixe la frontière nord du Dauphiné sur le Rhône et le Guiers. Vers 1420 le Dauphiné s’est agrandi du Valentinois et du Diois légués par leur dernier comte

Le Dauphin Louis, futur Louis XI, fils de Charles VII et de Marie d’Anjou, est né à Bourges en 1423, alors que son père n’avait que 21 ans. Son enfance au château de Loches est solitaire et il souffre de l’indifférence de son père. Bien qu’on lui confie épisodiquement quelques responsabilités, comme lieutenant-général au Languedoc en 1438 par exemple, il complote et intrigue très vite contre son père et son entourage, qui se méfient de lui. Pour l’éloigner et l’occuper, le Roi l’autorise à aller en Dauphiné recevoir l’hommage de sa province.

Début janvier 1447 le dauphin Louis chevauche vers son apanage : libéré de la tutelle paternelle, il va gouverner un état, où il va séjourner près de 10 ans. Louis visite la province, qu’il veut moderniser et unfier. Il fait rédiger un registre des droits, privilèges et libertés le "Registre Delphinal" par Mathieu Thomassin, son conseiller. Louis organise la province en créant deux baillages : le Viennois avec 3 sièges (Grenoble, Bourgoin et St-Marcellin) et les Montagnes avec 4 sièges (Briançon, Embrun, Serres et Buis-les-Baronnies) et une sénéchaussée Valentinois et Diois avec 3 sièges (Crest, Montélimar et Valence). Montélimar est réunie complétement au Dauphiné en 1451. Louis soumet les féodaux et abolit la guerre privée. Il réduit les pouvoirs temporels des évêques : les évêques de Vienne, Valence et Grenoble lui rendent hommage, celui de Gap rebelle est contraint par le pape à se soumettre.

Le Dauphin Louis reçoit le Registre Delphinal
Sa résidence principale est à la Côte-St-André, mais il se déplace fréquemment. En 1452 il crée une université à Valence et en 1453, le Conseil Delphinal est transformé en Parlement du Dauphiné à Grenoble. Le gouvernement du Dauphiné est pour lui un excellent apprentissage et il se comporte de plus en plus en souverain indépendant. Dès 1450, Charles VII s’en irrite, d’autant plus que Louis veut épouser une fille du Duc de Savoie Louis Ier : le roi refuse. Le Dauphin passe outre et épouse en février 1451 à Chambéry Charlotte de Savoie âgée de 12 ans...

A l’été 1452 le roi fait pression sur le duc de Savoie pour le détacher de son fils ; l’armée royale fait mouvement vers le sud-est : le duc de Savoie se désolidarise du Dauphin. Les capitaines du roi inspectent les défenses de Lyon et remplacent le commandant du château Pierre-Scize. L’armée royale repart vers le sud-ouest et la victoire de Castillon sur les Anglais (1453), qui termine la guerre de Cent-Ans. Louis peut alors mener une expédition en Italie, allié à René d’Anjou, mais l’affaire tourne court. En 1454 Louis se venge de son beau-père Savoie en ravageant le pays de la Valbonne et en occupant Montluel.

En 1455 le Dauphin est isolé diplomatiquement et en décembre Charles VII se met en route avec l’Armée Royale. Louis tente de négocier, mais ses conditions sont inacceptables pour le roi qui veut une soumission complète. Charles VII arrive en Lyonnais, il loge au château d’Yvours (à Irigny) et au château de Saint-Priest. En août 1456 Antoine de Chabannes entre en Dauphiné avec l’Armée Royale qui se positionne à Saint-Priest et Saint-Symphorien d’Ozon : le Dauphin Louis s’enfuit à travers la Franche-Comté pour se réfugier à Bruxelles auprès de Philippe le Bon, duc de Bourgogne...

Charles VII se fixe à Lyon et réunit par deux fois à Vienne les trois états du Dauphiné : par un habile mélange de promesses et de menaces, il amène à soumission les administrateurs et officiers de son fils. Une démonstration militaire achève de convaincre les hésitants. Le Dauphiné est rattaché au domaine royal, mais le Roi ne modifie pas l’administration mise en place ; le gouverneur du Dauphiné Louis de Laval est maintenu. Charles VII réside au château de Saint-Priest au sud-est de Lyon jusqu’en juillet 1457, chassé par la peste. Quant au Dauphin, le Duc de Bourgogne met à sa disposition le château de Genappe en Brabant, où il est rejoint par Charlotte. Là il va attendre encore pendant 5 ans la mort de son père (juillet 1461), qui le fait Louis le onzième, Roi de France : il a alors 38 ans.

Sources : Bernard Bligny & coll. - Histoire du Dauphiné - Privat 1973 // Paul Murray Kendall - Louis XI - Fayard 1974

Datations are on the side of an hypothesis mid XVth century not beginning XVIth...

"The Playing Card: An Illustrated History" (Edition Leipzig, 1972), p. 80 n. 19) describes them as "Provence (?), middle of the 15th c.: So-called "Goldschmidt Cards". Handpainted, gilded, and punched background on parchment
... An expert opinion by the Doerner Institute of 21.6.1955 confirms the age of the pigments."




Note
1. Link to Visconti Sfoza : effective but not in the iconography of the card
Image

Remarque : "The Biscione (‘large grass snake’), also known as the Vipera (‘viper’ or in Milanese as the Bissa), is a heraldic charge showing a blue serpent in the act of swallowing a human: usually a child and sometimes described as a Moor. It has been the emblem of the Italian Visconti family for around a thousand years. Its origins are unknown. (Is it really?) However it has been claimed that it was taken from the coat of arms of a Saracen killed by Ottone Visconti during the crusades".[/i].
Il ne s'agit pas d'un dauphin mais d'une vipère même si Sforza est un temps l' allié du Dauphin Louis XI intriguant contre son royal père....
2. Objections about Charlotte de Savoy being too young do not hold anymore : the datation isn't 1451 (her mariage when she was not yet a teenager ) but at least 4 years later - 1456 -1461- and we know that she'll be later on a good mother of Louis XI children and Queen of France
Web page : http://letarot.it/page.aspx?id=23&lng=eng

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

#397
Well..we've explained Huck and I our hypothesis.
Huck
Dasara 1510
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1102&start=390#p17776y
Mine
Louis XI Dauphin de Francec exil auprès du Duc de Bourgogne, Philippe le bon
post 01-03/1451 - 30/08/1456 - ante 15/08/1461
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1102&p=17782#p17781

My point of view seems less academic and far fetched but it remains mine - with all du respect for historians positions.
Anyone have a contrinution to offer?
Web page : http://letarot.it/page.aspx?id=23&lng=eng

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

#398
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=691&start=40#p17783

Already John Shephard took the position, that the Goldschmidt cards would be later. Also he had noted, that the motto of Isabella d'Este "nec spe nec metu" had importance for the dating.

He had the information, that Isabella d'Este stated, that she had invented the motto earlier (before 1504) ... and he speculates, that the date might have done 1490-1504. I don't have this information.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

#399
Thanks for the Addition Huck.

The lines come from Cicero, who observed that the magistrates of Rome should be overcome neque terror nec vis, nec spes nec metus, nec promissa nec minae, nec tela nec faces

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nec_spe_nec_metu

It will becomme Isabelle d'Este motto.

A powerful point ...

Her Secretary wrote a book with this title :
Mario Equicola Nec spe nec metu. Dialogus ad Iulianum Medicem (Mantua: Francesco Bruschi, 1513)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mario_Equicola

On google books it is stated than he had it already written in 1505.
Isabelle was angry with him because she considered than she invented the Motto which was wrong as it came from Cicero ... and was a StoIc principle ...
https://books.google.fr/books?id=XvCTFZ ... to&f=false
Web page : http://letarot.it/page.aspx?id=23&lng=eng

Re: Le Tarot arithmologique - la séquence 1+4+7+10 = 22

#400
BOUGEAREL Alain wrote:
Her Secretary wrote a book with this title :
Mario Equicola Nec spe nec metu. Dialogus ad Iulianum Medicem (Mantua: Francesco Bruschi, 1513)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mario_Equicola
He presented the book in manuscript form as a gift to Isabel d'Este in 1505, taking her motto for its title.

In the dialogue Baptista Mantuanus ( (17 April 1447 – 20 March 1516) says:

"The schools of theology accept that the stars have influence somewhat on the body but not over free will; Virtue is therefore free and not in any way subject to necessity. Virtue therefore, being free, neither raging hope nor fear can inhibit it. By divine counsel, whosoever would speak about Fate should rightly hear what Augustine has to say on the subject. Through this [fate] our liberty is in no way endangered; that is, we are free from hope and from fear."*

(These are also two of the four passions of the soul in Boiardo's tarocchi poem.)

SteveM
* quoted in 'The Cabinet of Eros" by Stephen J. Campbell, p.247/248
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

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