mikeh wrote:
Huck wrote
These SY versions seem to relate to the zodiac Aries-Pisces
Yes, that was the main thing I was trying to understand, how the zodiac worked in these three presentations. In the Long Version, the order of directions doesn't preserve the order of the zodiac. In the Short Version it works well.
Huck wrote
From the Bahir version it's not clear, if it relates to the zodiac. The row contradicts the both other versions.
True. I was assuming that it did relate to the zodiac, since all the others do, and in exactly the same way, but somehow that part got omitted from what we have of the Bahir. Yes, this sequence of directions contradicts the others. Each contradicts the other two. The Bahir version, assuming it doesn't change the zodiac assignments from the others (which are all the same, Aries to Pisces), is intermediary between the Short and the Long. That's what I was trying to say, anyway. I see it as a transition from a visual and architecture-making culture, with words as records of pictures, to a verbal culture whose architecture is formed from words (as in that "wall"), just the reverse of the preceding, losing the idea that letters are abbreviations for things in space. I tend to think of the SY as a set of architectural drawings put into words, and overlaid onto it architectural drawings made from words. I wonder if there are any architectural drawings of the Jerusalem Temple. Or maybe I should visit a synagogue.
Well, I agree, that we have 3 different versions.
Huck wrote,
The zodiac of I-Ching should look like ...
2-3, 2-4, 3-4, 3-5, 4-5, 4-6, 5-6, 5-1, 6-1, 6-2, 1-2, 1-3
Naturally it depends now on the own definitions, which numbers should mean the directions east, south, west, north, upper and lower.
Independent from this definition each of the directions direction should have in the zodiac sequence ...
And that's the 4th (from the SY-I-Ching-relationship).
Is the Chinese zodiac the same as the Western? Is this a problem for comparing the two systems? Also, I don't understand much of what I just quoted from you.
It's as I wrote before ...
The Chinese made their own ways with with their own astrologies. These methods have (as far I know them) nothing with that to do, how the zodiac was used in the "32 ways of wisdom" context.
The 12 Chinese months (hex. 19-11-34-43-1-44-33-12-20-23-2-24, comparable to Aquarius 15° till Capricorn and Aquarius 15 ° again, solar cycle), starts at 4/5th of February. The cycle just tells, that Yang energy increases at summer and it falls down in winter. This method is rather common in China, but it's not the only astrology. The solar year is different to the lunar year, which works with 12-13 months for each year, bound in a cycle of 19 years (like the Meton cycle).
These are naturally only the best known astrologies. There are more. And (likely) not all are reported in Western sources. And the reports, that I''ve seen, contradict each other occasionally, or tell different things.
The chapter "Astrologies related to the I-Ching" (106 pages) of "An Anthology of I-Ching" of W.A. Sherrill and W.K.Chu (1977) mentions 5 astrologies related to the I-Ching:
1. Astrology of I-Ching (anther book, that I also have), 516 pages
2. Nine House astrology
3. Astrology of Tzu Wei
4. Astrology of Tzu-Pin
5. Astrology of Tai-I
... and likely there had been much more.
China had 3000 years with the I-Ching. The cultural space in China and the number of once living persons are likely at least comparable to Europe, and Europe had in its culture also a lot about different astrologies, especially if we expand in the details of history.
China had a difficult time in 19/20th century and history didn't work well. Likely a lot of things were lost. China did burn its books with the first emperor (210 BC). Only few books survived then.
It's difficult to say, what China hadn't.
Between this stuff, what I've read earlier, I didn't see an astrology, as I postulate it for SY.
The I-Ching had 6 lines and the Chinese combined each single line with each other line. This makes 5+4+3+2+1=15 combinations, which form 15 hexagrams at each side (yang- and yin-side) and logically 15 complementary hexagram pairs. 3 of the 15 pairs became "mothers" in the SY-world and 12 of the 15 pairs became zodiac signs in the SY-world. The "mothers" are in the I-Ching the line combinations 1-4, 2-5 and 3-6. If one would put the six lines in a cycle (as in the I-Ching globe picture), then 1-4, 2-5 and 3-6 would be "oppositions". If one would put the lines on the 6 side of a cube (as it is done in SY), then they would be also "oppositions".
None of the 5 above given sources of SY (inclusive the Bahir source and my suggestion) uses an opposition (North-South, East-West, Upper-Lower) to define a zodiac sign.
This is logical, cause these are the "mothers". So far they have it understood it correctly. Then the SY-presentations produce contradictions with the 12 other pairs. Either 2,3 or 4 of the presentations must be "wrong" (if one assumes, that only one version could be correct).
I think, that all 4 are wrong or persecute just other ideas.
I have my own idea and this says ...
2-3, 2-4, 3-4, 3-5, 4-5, 4-6, 5-6, 5-1, 6-1, 6-2, 1-2, 1-3 [is correct, as this would make a sort of zodiac in the I-Ching system; the start at "2-3" is Aries]
Naturally it depends now on the own definitions, which numbers should mean the directions east, south, west, north, upper and lower.
As I've used this picture, to show the SY-zodiac in I-Ching-style (starting with Aquarius) I've marked Aries (2-3), which would be the Western Aries-start.
I didn't define the lines. Let's assume:
6 = West
5 = Upper
4 = South
3 = East
2 = Lower
1 = North
Then we have ....
1 North (implies Winter)
3 East (implies Spring)
4 South (implies Summer)
6 West (implies Autumn)
2 Lower implies then the time between Winter and Spring (which is relative cold)
5 Upper implies then the time between Summer and Autumn (which is relative warm)
110000 NORTH LOWER ----- .... Aquarius
101000 NORTH -------- EAST .... Pisces
011000 -------- LOWER EAST .... Aries
010100 SOUTH LOWER ----- .... Taurus
001100 SOUTH -------- EAST .... Gemini
001010 -------- UPPER EAST .... Cancer
000110 SOUTH UPPER ------ .... Leo
000101 SOUTH -------- WEST .... Virgo
000011 -------- UPPER WEST .... Libra
100010 NORTH UPPER ------ .... Scorpio
100001 NORTH -------- WEST .... Sagittarius
010001 -------- LOWER WEST .... Capricorn
This looks like a plausible system.