Re: Tarotée - The Back-Door To The Secret

Oh - I forgot that I decided to cancel the "Minchiate" excursion (at this point of the thread) and the "water theme in Tarot" elaboration too (at this point of the thread).
It would be too distracting. First things first.
So don't wait for it. Just carry on. Business (and posting maybe) as usual?

You could come up with some good ideas though:
the "falconer"... the "tracing board"...



Re: Tarotée - The Back-Door To The Secret

Well, let's leave the theme "musirt" aside.
Not all members like your theories. Especially the Chessboard thing is not very much agreed upon (not only) around here.
But you know what? I actually do! A bit - and looking from "higher ground". Just a change of perspective.
That's why I included you in my PDF.
And "C" does too. In a way. The Chessmen and the Chessboard are in TRUE TAROT too.

The Tarot Cards are the closest to the Chessmen in the "gaming WORLD".
BUT: Tarot it NOT Chess. The Tarot Cards don't BEHAVE like the Chessmen.
The WORLD is their oyster. BUT with a Chessboard PATTERN.
NOT black and white squares. BUT a NET full of diamonds.
... :-) ... it's not very interesting to engage very much for themes, what everybody believes anyway. That would be a common "Eulen nach Athen" strategy and extraordinarily boring.
It's far better to detect something, which researchers overlooked, but which has nonetheless good arguments to be true in the given historical context. Naturally one needs a good mind, who is able to detect such "blind spots in research". It also depends on the personal general knowledge about the related time.

In this case it helps to know, that Chess was a dominant factor during 14th century, after the Apocalypse it was the second hot topic in general literature. From this humble viewing point it looks like a rather acceptable idea, that chess (a game) influenced another game (cards and Trionfi cards), in contrast to that, what is believed or loved in Tarot research.
A good idea alone doesn't make the evidence. Naturally one has to study the details of chess history, which was been done here ...
... and naturally one has to know the documents of playing card research, especially for the early time, cause, if Chess influenced card development, then it should have been in the early time of the development.
Under these conditions one can play the "längeres Gedankenspiel", if the hypothesis about an influence of chess on Trionfi cards makes sense or not. Well, if Charlatan says anything about chess, then I'll look it up, if you tell me the page.

"The Tarot Cards don't BEHAVE like the Chessmen".
Well, I speak usually of Trionfi cards. "Tarochi" is a later appearance, likely in too far a distance from the origin of the Trionfi cards. And we're just very interested in this origin, much more than in freemasonry.

Naturally a piece of paper has more ways to carry iconographic details than a 3d-figure. In matters of specification by game rules, however, the chess figures (with 6 different ways to move) have more content than pictures organized by a trivial hierarchical row 0-21 as in Tarot.

... would NOT have had the chance to get offended by his "arrogance" because there is no foreword to TRUE TAROT that you could have read (and copied > pasted).
Every REALLY interested reader of this thread (yet there are not many - less than 1% I would say - so no worries about that. Yet.) could find out and see for himself.
Well, I got this start of the text (enlarged script, 270 pages, not really readable in this way, but naturally I could read the start and copy and paste). You suggested to download the pdf. I attempted it. I got the page with the bill. ... shall we amuse us with such details? ... :-) ...
I've the pdf now. I still think, even after improved reading conditions, that it is that, what in German means "eine Zumutung".
I remind you, that I said, that I don't promise to read this.

About the obviously silly comment now:
>> A playing card from 15th century. Chess was known, but the freemasons were missing then. <<
You - or even the most "common reader" - wouldn't expect a full fledged version of anything complicated and SECRET like the Free Masons with rituals and grades and all that stuff that you overlooked appearing for the FIRST TIME in official documents (London 1717) to be the "date of birth" - would you? Really?
Well, you've nothing, where you could point to, right? No Freemasons in 15th century. Naturally there were groups with some insider habits. For instance: Knight orders. Humanist academies. If we believe in Andreae and his Rosenkreuzer, you have Christian Rosenkreuz. Groups, which engaged for carnival. Persons, who wrote coded letters. Courtiers at the courts. Franciscans and other orders. Business alliances. Wandering alchemists. Even Chess clubs. Gambling houses. Guilds, also for building workers and naturally also masons. Artist communities.
Would you assume, that all these were hidden freemasons?

There are other claims that 1390 is the date of the first masonic document. The Halliwell Manuscript. But modern methods see it more around 1450.

Well ...
Halliwell Manuscript, or Regius Poem[edit]

Halliwell Manuscript
The Halliwell Manuscript, also known as the Regius Poem, is the earliest of the Old Charges. It consists of 64 vellum pages of Middle English written in rhyming couplets. In this, it differs from the prose of all the later charges. The poem begins by describing how Euclid "counterfeited geometry" and called it masonry, for the employment of the children of the nobility in Ancient Egypt. It then recounts the spread of the art of geometry in "divers lands." The document relates how the craft of masonry was brought to England during the reign of King Athelstan (924–939). It tells how all the masons of the land came to the King for direction as to their own good governance, and how Athelstan, together with the nobility and landed gentry, forged the fifteen articles and fifteen points for their rule. This is followed by fifteen articles for the master concerning both moral behaviour (do not harbour thieves, do not take bribes, attend church regularly, etc.) and the operation of work on a building site (do not make your masons labour at night, teach apprentices properly, do not take on jobs that you cannot do etc.). There are then fifteen points for craftsmen which follow a similar pattern. Warnings of punishment for those breaking the ordinances are followed by provision for annual assemblies. There follows the legend of the Four Crowned Martyrs, a series of moral aphorisms, and finally a blessing.

It reads like some normal guild paper. What makes it look like a "Freemason document" in your opinion?
Here's a report about the guilds in Florence. "Arte dei Maestri di Pietra e Legname" is the guild for master stonemasons and wood-carvers. Florence has a lot of old business papers in its archives. And here ... ... 39440.html
Kölner Dom
Der verschwundene Bauplan

Johannes Fuhrer war Zimmerergeselle. Er hat es ermöglicht, dass der Kölner Dom nach 632 Jahren Bauzeit fertig gestellt werden konnte.
Wer ihm dabei half? Der Zufall! Im September 1814 hatte er auf einem Dachboden eines Darmstädter Gasthauses zu tun und entdeckte dabei ein altes Pergament, ein beschreibbares Stück aus dünnem Leder, das riesengroß war. Fuhrer zeigte den Bauplan seinem Chef. Durch mehrere Hände gelangte das Schriftstück schließlich in die Hände des Hofbaumeisters Dr. Georg Moller – der seitdem als Entdecker des Bauplans gilt.

Die Zeichnung wurde etwa 1280 erstellt, 32 Jahre nach der Grundsteinlegung des Doms, der offiziell Hohe Domkirche St. Peter und Maria heißt.

Hm .... 1280 is far before 1380. Shouldn't Cologne claim to have the oldest freemason document? Well, I personally think, it's appropriate, that freemasonry started in 1717. There are big differences between the societies of 15th century and that of early 18th century.

Image ... issen.html
A detail of the plan. The plan is about 4 x 1.66 meters.

Re: Tarotée - The Back-Door To The Secret

This problem of projecting a 3D scene onto a 2D plane is not a new oThis problem of projecting a 3D scene onto a 2D plane is not a new one. When the rennaisance got into full swing in Europe portraying a 3D scene in a painting with realistic perspective was one of the main challenges. Techniques were developed that helped create realistic perspective.

In the Durer etching below a very 3D model is lying to the left of a transparent grid. The artist on the right uses the grid to map what he sees onto a sheet of paper marked with an identical scaled grid. He keeps his viewpoint fixed by squinting with one eye passed the point of a fixed needle. When the rennaisance got into full swing in Europe portraying a 3D scene in a painting with realistic perspective was one of the main challenges. Techniques were developed that helped create realistic perspective.

In the Durer etching below a very 3D model is lying to the left of a transparent grid. The artist on the right uses the grid to map what he sees onto a sheet of paper marked with an identical scaled grid. He keeps his viewpoint fixed by squinting with one eye passed the point of a fixed needle.
Leon Battista Alberti appears often in our talkings about a possible genesis of Tarot. In 1435 he wrote "De Pictura", which was a deciding text for the development of considerations about perspective.

Re: Tarotée - The Back-Door To The Secret

I apologize for being late to this topic and not having read it all but I want to note the similarity between the background design on several of the Visconti cards and the design on the outer wall of the Borromeo Palace in Milan. This palace is the location of the famous fresco of the Tarocchi Players (see the window to the right of the door - that's the room decorated with courtiers playing games). I noticed it immediately when I went there with Brian Williams in 2000.


Re: Tarotée - The Back-Door To The Secret

hi Mary,
nice to meet you.

That's indeed a very interesting information. Is there security, that this is really the old decoration of c. 1440? Or at least the style of decoration around 1440/50? ... 28Milan%29
Palazzo Borromeo ("Borromeo Palace") is a 13th-century building of Milan, Italy, located at street number 12 of the eponymous city square, Piazza Borromeo.

The palace was built in the 13th century for the House of Borromeo. At the time, the Borromeo (originally from Florence) were quickly consolidating their influence on Milan and Northern Italy, partly through their good relationship with Duke Francesco Sforza. The palace eventually became the centre of a sort of "Borromeo citadel" within the city proper. The Borromeo used the area for celebrations and events such as chivalrous tournaments.[1] The palace was also renowned for housing a prestigious art collection.[2]

The palace has a late Gothic architecture, which has nevertheless undergone several major modifications through the centuries (and most notably after being damaged by bombings in World War II).

The main feature of the facade is the large doorway, decorated with white and red marble. The inner courtyard is the part of the palace that is best preserved; some of the original frescos are still visibile. Notable frescos representing the tourneys held by the Borromeo are also found in one of the rooms of the palace, known as the "architecture study"; they are credited to painter Michelino da Besozzo.[2]

The palace is still the property of the Borromeo family.
I get here a closer picture of the same wall ... ... y-2007.jpg


... here a detail ...

It's not so close to the PMB-cards, I would say. But the total impression goes a similar way.

Re: Tarotée - The Back-Door To The Secret

I remember, that I've seen similar style elements in indoor frescoes (repeating heraldic elements in mosaic form), also from 15th century in other castles. I don't remember, where it was.
The major occupation of Sagramoro, Trionfi card painter, was it to decorate very often different objects with Este heraldic.
It's plausible, that it is "somehow" from 15th century. I've no idea, what this repeating word means below the crowns.

Re: Tarotée - The Back-Door To The Secret

Hello Huck.

Referring to your post on 26 Jan 2015, 22:29 and your notion about chess and it's possible influence on Tarot (trionfi are not the topic) I would say that from my point of view you are wrong in all your assumptions and how those 2 could be related.

You cited my opinion about that quite complete so that I don't have to do it again here and at this point.

If you want to know what "C" has to say about that please read (oh I forgot you won't) - or use your search engine.

About the "Scribd-non-incident" concerning fees for downloading FREE documents there I gave the whole procedure as it happens on my (let's say "magical") keyboard in contrast to your "slow connection".
And no. I don't want to amuse myself or anyone with this non-incident.
In fact I find it a little bit sad. So let's just agree that you have a slow connection and I have a magical keyboard.
Anyway anything can happen in this world and who am I to say that something did or didn't?
And please go on with non-reading. That can be quite informative if you do it right. Right?

Well now about earlier than 1717 free masons.
I did point to the link that I gave as an example. 1440 was the date there if you remember and the building was the Rosslyn Chapel near Edinburgh.

About the Rosslyn Chapel are documentations and films available on-line. You should chose and educate.

You should inform yourself about architecture in medieval times on your own time I'd suggest - in this thread it is only a fringe theme (like Freemasonry and Alchemy and Rosicrucians) - and from your diction I take that you do not know much about those fringe themes.
A good starting point for the connections between cathedrals, Alchemy and Hermeticism (as in Hermes) would be "Le Mystère Des Cathédrales".

There are translations available but it's a delicate subject. And I must warn you Huck:
>> The books are written in a cryptic and erudite manner, replete with Latin and Greek puns, alchemical symbolism, double entendres, and lectures on and in Argot and Cant, all of which SERVE TO KEEP THE CASUAL ( > common ? ) READER IGNORANT. <<

(All caps and bracketed insert by me - citation from the wikipedia link about Fulcanelli.)

You should really take more time between replies and posts. A month maybe. Do not be so hasty because the research you have done for your own purpose in the past doesn't fit the subject here. You have a lot (A LOT) of catching up to do.
I tried to keep the Freemasons out of the equation and tried to keep it strictly VISUAL in my PDF but mikeh and you brought the musirt > musiert > musivisch > Musivisches Pflaster here and so now they are here.

I don't think that many readers here are able (or willing) to keep up with this fringe themes because they didn't look in that direction so far.
In a few months maybe there can be a lightly informed discussion about that but clearly not now. So please hold your horses (Huck especially) and read a bit around. I would think the links that I gave here in thread up to now and in the PDF should keep you busy for some days. Some own research based on those hints added to this time to confirm or to oppose could take a month. Reading and UNDERSTANDING the books involved could take another year. Most people devote decades to them.
So until it will be possible to "discuss" the fringe themes I will keep it strictly VISUAL. The "Falconer" that you Huck brought is very good for that - even if it is not "Tarot" - but related.
You didn't give a source - or did you?. Please do if not.
And you have no opinion about the card and scene there other than that it has a black and white floor? Come on!

The Halliwell Manuscript you refer to with links and all is deemed by Freemasons themselves and some researchers an "Old Charge".
YOU found it on a wikipedia link that deals with "Masonic manuscripts".
Why would you ask ME what makes it "masonic" to ME?
I can assure you that I didn't write the wikipedia article.
I must say that I find your argumentation quite unfounded and twisted. And time consuming.
It seems to be another "Duden-case". If it reads to you like "some normal guild paper" please edit the article on wikipedia with your "opinion" and have a discussion there. Could be for good.

About the old plan for the church (Kölner Dom).
Again you don't give a translation or anything helpful for non-German-reading members! A shame!
This time I will not clean it up for you because it is not helping a bit not even your own strain of thought.
What other conclusion could be made from that plan that REAL masons were magnificent draftsman, perfectly capable of drawing and building true to scale. VERY practical.
Something that can not be said of the Freemasons every time with a clean conscience.

Until you do not have something logical and educated to offer I will not answer to your "freemasonic opinions" anymore.

This reply is in reference to your post on 27 Jan 2015, 09:46, Huck.

What you posted here is another use of the square-grid method.
Here it is not used to magnify a given 2D drawing, but to downsize a living human person so that it fits the size of your "leaf of paper".
When you draw a person lying down you will recognize that the lines that define the body in 3D become "shortened" above all your expectations.
So you use the square-grid for orientation and control.
If you try to do that without the 2 square-grids (1 for observing the body and looking THROUGH it - so it had/has to be transparent and in olden times was made of a frame with nails in it and cord attached to them and by such means forming the square-grid - and the 2nd smaller one drawn directly on your "leaf of paper") you will go wrong in your drawing very fast and the illusion of a stretched out person won't be achieved.

The "leaves of paper" we talk about here are the early historical Tarot cards: "the unbound book of leaves (for kings)".
They do not show very much true 3D - only some kind of perspective but distressed in a way (Le BATELEUR > his table).
How the square grid method is used THERE I explained on the 1st page of this thread on 11 Jan 2015, 18:41.
I cited the pages from "C"'s TRUE TAROT PDF and explained further that nowadays you can do that easily by using Photoshop (or similar programs).

If you would have done that in the 18th century you would have had to copy the black lines of the wood-printed leaf of the card 1 to 1 on a big piece of paper. All of them.
The 1st square grid made of a frame with nails and cord laid directly on the card.
The 2nd square grid with exactly the same size grid drawn on the big piece of paper.
After you have copied the whole card in its exact true size and appearance you would turn for reference to the ladder device that tells you that every card is divided in 3 in height totally identical segments.
If your task is now to "grow" a L'AMOVREVX card where the depicted personas equal Le BATELEUR in bodily height you see that you will have to lengthen your "Ladder-scale" in such a way that the 2 bottom segments cover the whole original card copy with its 3 segment ladder.

Because your square-grids are made of squares (equal in height and width) and you now know how HIGH the new Ladder-scale has to be and you can extrapolate from that how WIDE it must be and go on with preparing the grid for your "up-scaled" L'AMOVREVX and so on...

With Photoshop you can do that in 5 min. With the square-grid-method this should take a day or 2 or more - depending on your drawing- and sketching skills.

And if you wouldn't be given advice (or KNOW about the Ladder) you wouldn't know that there a picture could be hidden AT ALL.

Again I ask you politely Huck not post until I have referred to Mary Greer too (and your comments on it) just for the sake of the reader.
Thanx for understanding! It will take me an hour or 2 to make a picture with "beams" from your magnified version. Thank you for that Huck.


Re: Tarotée - The Back-Door To The Secret

Greetings Mary and thanx for stopping by and bringing such a great find!

Maybe you find the time later to catch up. You may have not have read that I wrote in the thread PDF about the Visconti-Sforza family cards and this special pattern on them. The hand-painted big guys.

And here you are with the Palazzo Borromeo, owned by a family with close ties to the Visconti-Sforza.
I made a JPG so that the "Net Pattern" can be more closely observed. In my PDF I talk about the (clipped) nails that were driven through the cards. Every single one of them. Great Secrets and Lesser Secrets and Court.



In the Borromeo wall pattern the "crossings" are marked with a little blue ring (not MY doing - I just did the net with 2px inner contour and 50% tranparency). This is the place were the clipped nails should be hammered in.
Of course not on the OUTER wall of the palace but in a cosy room with at least a 12 feet high ceiling. This is a model. A plan.
Displayed in the open with the conviction that nobody would be able to make sense of it.

The fresco shows (in my opinion of course) 5 high ranking friends of the family (the man on the right could be a cleric. A cardinal maybe with his big round hat.) OBSERVING the cards before they start to play. The tree in the background could be a hint to that. And the wall where the cards will be placed would be in the viewing direction of the lady in the middle of the scene.

In deed it would be interesting to know the word that is written in every "diamond" on the wall in a lettering quite close to that on the first 5 sword cards. Nearly every "diamond" on the "gaming-wall" will harbor a secret at one time of the "game". And the word with the crown on the palace wall is a "place-holder" for them.
Why I come to that conclusion is partly described in my thread PDF and more detailed in the TRUE TAROT PDF on scribd.

The wall looks like it is in it's meant to be state. Restored or not.

Thanx again


Re: Tarotée - The Back-Door To The Secret

So until it will be possible to "discuss" the fringe themes I will keep it strictly VISUAL. The "Falconer" that you Huck brought is very good for that - even if it is not "Tarot" - but related.
You didn't give a source - or did you?. Please do if not.
And you have no opinion about the card and scene there other than that it has a black and white floor? Come on!
It's well known usually. One of the 9 socalled Goldschmidt cards. 4 others of them have also checkered ground. One of the Guildhall cards dito. The Death card of the Victoria-Albert Museum-Tarocchi cards also.
Kaplan, Tarot Encyclopedia I, p. 104, p. 110, p. 111

No, I just see a checkered ground. I've not the opinion, that it means a "musivisches Pflaster" from the Freimaurer.

Until you do not have something logical and educated to offer I will not answer to your "freemasonic opinions" anymore.
Hm ... I thought, it was you, who wanted to talk about freemasonry? I wasn't so interested. Didn't you praise the Copiale, which in your opinion was a MUST? I wasn't impressed.
Usually we speak about playing cards here. I gave an example of a black-white checkered ground on a playing card from 15th century, this in communicative relation to a so-called "musivisches Pflaster" (an expression used in Germany in 18th century by German Freemasons).
I personally speculate, that it (the card) is possibly related to the game of chess. I don't speculate, that this card was produced in any context to Freemasonry.

Possibly made in the context of knight orders. They had a preference for the chess game.


Generally we have here a spirit of cooperation between researchers with different opinions, and we help each other usually.
I've the opinion (or custom) to have Freemasonry started in 1717. I know, that from the side of freemasonry opinions exist, that the origin was earlier.
... does not impress me very much. What, if the 1717 Freemasons just used older rituals or were even inspired by the earlier stone figures and tried to imitate it? And the picture is remarkable small and bad. Why not a larger picture?
The owner of the website:
Lomas' main claim to notability is the authorship of several highly speculative works on the origins of Freemasonry. Positive reviewers admit that his works have attracted "a great deal of criticism and even outrage" but argue that his writing is "loaded with all sorts of interesting theories and information that seem emblematic of an insider's point of view on the subject matter".[6]

Elements of his work have been described as 'hoaxes' by members of the Freemasonry community. For example, the redaction of a document called "The Masonic Testament" by Lomas and co-author Christopher Knight, in their Book of Hiram (2003), from fragments of old manuscripts and ritual,[7] has been described as "An invention by the highly imaginative authors ... which has no historical validity".[8] A review from The Square, reprinted on Lomas' website states that Turning the Hiram Key "should be viewed as an invitation to think, rather than a prescriptive statement".[9]

I've no opinion to that, it's not my topic. That's an internal freemasons debate.

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