Re: Minchiate Francesi / Poilly decks

51
Huck wrote,
Perhaps the earlier Florentine Lille already depended on the French Lille ... the Anjou, which manifested in Italy in the second half of 13th century had friends in Florence.
The link I gave earlier, http://www.thatsflorence.com/discoverin ... -florence/, says that the Florentine lily dates back to the 11th century. That seems plausible to me, as the Ghelph/Ghibilline struggles were before the Count of Anjou made his deal with the Pope to intervene on the side of the Guelphs in return for most of the spoils. After Manfred, defender of the Ghibellines (who got back in power in Florence and everywhere else), was defeated at Benevento in 1266, followed by Conradin in 1268, the French army occupied Northern Italy, Ghibillines were slaughtered, their property burned or confiscated. and it was all over (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manfred,_King_of_Sicily and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_I_of_Naples for some of this).

I don't know anything about the rest of what you say.

Re: Minchiate Francesi / Poilly decks

52
mikeh wrote:Huck wrote,
Perhaps the earlier Florentine Lille already depended on the French Lille ... the Anjou, which manifested in Italy in the second half of 13th century had friends in Florence.
The link I gave earlier, http://www.thatsflorence.com/discoverin ... -florence/, says that the Florentine lily dates back to the 11th century. That seems plausible to me, as the Ghelph/Ghibilline struggles were before the Count of Anjou made his deal with the Pope to intervene on the side of the Guelphs in return for most of the spoils. After Manfred, defender of the Ghibellines (who got back in power in Florence and everywhere else), was defeated at Benevento in 1266, followed by Conradin in 1268, the French army occupied Northern Italy, Ghibillines were slaughtered, their property burned or confiscated. and it was all over (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manfred,_King_of_Sicily and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_I_of_Naples for some of this).

I don't know anything about the rest of what you say.
German wiki says ...
Der Name Ghibellinen / Waiblinger ist für das mittelalterliche Italien die Bezeichnung für die Parteigänger des Kaisers, benannt nach der heute württembergischen Stauferstadt Waiblingen und dem Kampfruf der Staufer. Die Existenz dieses Namens ist erstmals um 1215 zur Zeit des Stauferkaisers Friedrich II. bezeugt.
The name Ghibellines existed since 1215, according this. The name Welfen (= Guelphen) is older ... in 12th century Henry the lion (Welfen party) had conflicts with emperor Fredrick Barbarossa, a Staufer. This conflict might have proceeded to the later Italian conflict Ghibellines/Guelfs.

The link, that you gave, doesn't speak of "11th century" .... ?

11th century would be rather early for "heraldic devices", though the lille in France seems to be rather old as a symbol.

Image


German wiki: Florentiner Lilie
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florentiner_Lilie
with lots of examples

The Florentine Lille differs in color and by "Staubfäden" from the French Lille.

Image


Perhaps we should look for examples of the Medici device (six palle with Lille) around 1465. Either they are with "Staubfäden" or not.

Image


One palle is blue, the other 5 red. "Blue" associates France, one should assume. I don't see "Staubfäden".

http://www.theflorentine.net/articles/a ... tocId=7605

Image


... subtitled "The augmented coat of arms granted to Piero by Louis XI in 1465, replacing one of the six "balls" or palle of the family arms by a somewhat larger ball showing the arms of France." at ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piero_di_Cosimo_de'_Medici

It's a French Lille, not a Florentine Lille, no doubt, I would say.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Minchiate Francesi / Poilly decks

53
I found a recently (2012) redesigned Minchiate Francesi ...
https://www.thegamecrafter.com/games/fr ... lly-tarot1

The author has made various redesigned decks.
Hello, and welcome to A Historical Retrospective! My name is Catherine Brown, and I love Tarot, Lenormand, and most other historical cartomancy! Please visit my blog CartomancyCat to get news on my latest efforts and all kinds of spreads and information.
https://historicalretrospective.wordpress.com/
https://cartomancycat.wordpress.com/
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Minchiate Francesi / Poilly decks

54
Notes to the question, how popular the figure "Momus" had been in the period 1640-70 (the time, when "Momus" appeared in the Minchiate Francesi).
I found an astonishing big number of German language texts, too much to note them all. In modern German language Momus is a rather unknown figure.


-----------------------

Faem et Momus over Neptuni Triumph en zege-wagen verciert vande Zeeuwsche Maegt, over de noyt-gehoorde victorie verkregen ... onder commando vanden ... zee-helt Michiel de Ruyter enz
J.P.S.
1666 - 8 Seiten
https://books.google.de/books?id=5IVJAA ... navlinks_s

**************

Momus poem (1642):
https://books.google.de/books?id=lA5OAA ... us&f=false

************

Lutherus Redivivus, Oder Das . . Theologische Schatz-kästlein, Von zwölff unterschiedlichen Fächlein: Darinnen allerhand nutzliche und denckwürdige Materien in zimlicher Ordnung eingetragen, Auß dem ... Jenischen Theil der Teutschen Schrifften D. Martini Lutheri S. ... Sampt einer Verzeichnuß, wo ein jegliches Stück, Buch oder Schrifft in den Wittebergischen Teutschen Tomis zu finden sey, und einem nothwendigen Register aller denckwürdigen Wörter und Sachen, Band 6
Martin Luther
Humm und Gerlin, 1665 - 691 Seiten
https://books.google.de/books?id=DSxUAA ... us&f=false

************

Legation Oder Abschickung der Esel in Parnassum
Rudolph von Dieskau
Ritzsch, 1642 - 68 Seiten
https://books.google.de/books?id=tZZKAA ... us&f=false

************

Acerra philologica das ist, 400 außerlesene Historien ... zusammen gebracht auß griechischen und lateinischen Scribenten etc
Doß, 1654
https://books.google.de/books?id=0CFLAA ... us&f=false

************

Der Lehr- und Weisheitbegierige Jüngling: Aus der alten sinnreichen Tafel des vortrefflichen Philosophi Cebetis, mit nützlichen Lehren unterrichtet : In welcher der Jugend Thorheit, Irrthum und Laster gezeiget ... ; In einer Comoedy von jungen Knaben praesentiret
Christoph Paul Spieß
Endter, 1659 - 127 Seiten
https://books.google.de/books?id=5kE7AA ... navlinks_s

Biography of author
http://www.astronomie-nuernberg.de/inde ... =spiess-mp

***********
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Minchiate Francesi / Poilly decks

55
I stumbled at ebay about a Solleone version of the Minchiate Francesi with 42 trumps and totally 98 cards.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/165937518068?_ ... %3A2047675
Image


The owner was so friendly to show pictures of all parts of the deck
Image



I think, this is the first opportunity to see all the pictures (at least to me).
It's natural, that this is a copy of something and this original is not known (at least to me).
So I thought, but I had forgotten some later developments ... :-(

There's a red paper with a dedication:
Dedico questa edizione alla memoria di ROBERT THISSEN, redatto de `L'AS DE TREFLE, amico carissimo, improvisamente scomparso a Parigi il 4 Aprile 1986.
Fu un testimone attento ed affetuoso del mondo della cartagiocofilia ed elargi a tutti noi il dono della sua cultura, sensibilita e fantasia.
lo ricordo con sincero rimpanto
Vito Arienti
automatic translation:
I dedicate this edition to the memory of ROBERT THISSEN, editor of `L'AS DE TREFLE, a very dear friend, who died suddenly in Paris on April 4, 1986.
He was an attentive and affectionate witness of the world of paper gaming and bestowed on all of us the gift of his culture, his sensitivity and his imagination.
I remember it with sincere regret
Vito Arienti
I find this article from 2016 .... "Vito Arienti e le sue Edizioni del Solleone"
http://minervanewscrispiano.blogspot.co ... i-del.html
It contains a picture from 1980 and it shows Arienti at the right side.
Image


At an IPCS page (Council) one finds Vito Arienti ijn the category PAST HONORARY FELLOWS
https://www.i-p-c-s.org/wp/council/

Vito Arienti (1920-2004)
Franz Braun (1923-2016)
Trevor Denning (1923-2009)
Michael Dummett (1925-2011)
Detlef Hoffmann (1940-2013)
Erwin Kohlmann (1920-2001)
Sylvia Mann (1924-1994)
Dudley Ollis ( -2017)
Helmut Rosenfeld (1907-1993)
Virginia Wayland (1909-2001)

There is a small paper with information about the deck

Image

Image
Last edited by Huck on 03 Mar 2023, 23:36, edited 1 time in total.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Minchiate Francesi / Poilly decks

57
I have none, I just took the pictures from the web. I saw one of the 1984 production offer demanding about 130 Euro for a used one, and another (new ?) for about 60 Euro, but this was sold out.

I've found 2 old originals in the web ... older than 1984:


Minchiate Francesi .... 41 trumps version (totally 57 cards, no number cards)
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b ... ate.langEN
Titre : [Jeu de minchiate de fantaisie à enseignes françaises] : [jeu de cartes, estampe]
Auteur : Poilly, François de (1623-1693). Graveur
Date d'édition : 1658-1693
Notice du catalogue : Notice de recueil : http://catalogue.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/cb403537987
Relation : Appartient à : [Recueil. Cartes à jouer]
Notice du catalogue : http://catalogue.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/cb43572841g
Type : image fixe
Type : estampe
Format : 1 jeu de 97 cartes : gravure en taille-douce coloriée à la main ; 9,4 x 6 cm
Format : image/jpeg
Format : Nombre total de vues : 114
Description : Référence bibliographique : Depaulis, Tarot 1984, 62
Description : Appartient à l’ensemble documentaire : JeuCart
Description : Carte à jouer
Droits : Consultable en ligne
Identifiant : ark:/12148/btv1b103365240
Source : Bibliothèque nationale de France, département Estampes et photographie, RESERVE KH-34 (8, 111)-BOITE ECU
Conservation numérique : Bibliothèque nationale de France
Date de mise en ligne : 14/10/2013
Minchiate Francesi .... 21 trumps version (totally 37 cards, no number cards)
http://visualiseur.bnf.fr/CadresFenetre ... hemindefer

Now there is also the 1986 Solleone version
Minchiate Francesi ... 42 trumps version (totally 98 cards)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/165937518068?_ ... %3A2047675
and
https://picclick.it/98carte-tarocchi-MI ... 18068.html
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Minchiate Francesi / Poilly decks

58
130 Euros for that cheap monocolor edition (the Solleone)? I paid somewhere between 15 and 30 Euros for mine, all 98 cards, no blurb pages. I bought it 11 years ago (or rather, an Italian friend did so for me, as that bookstore in a small Italian beach town didn't take international orders). If anyone needs better reproductions for specific cards than those Huck linked to and can't find them elsewhere online, just ask. Not for commercial purposes, of course. In 2012 I posted in this thread images of the trumps Huck didn't have images of; see viewtopic.php?p=12851#p12851. They were just photos with a cheap camera; now I can do better.

Re: Minchiate Francesi / Poilly decks

59
IN WORK

01 Mercure (flying)
02 L'amour (blind flying Eros with arrow and flowers)
03 L'Esperence (woman at small island with big anchor; Hope)
04 La Force (woman carrying a column)
05 La Fortune Woman standing on wheel in the sea; wings at her feet)
06 La Justice (woman with Libra and sword ... in the background a city view)
07 La Charité (woman with two children)
08 La Prudence (woman with mirror, snake)
09 Les Ages, la Vieillesse
10 Age Viril (hero with sword and shield and dragon; "Golden Vlies" in a tree)
11 Ages Adolescences (3 young women and a young sitting men reading from a book)
12 Ages l'Enfance (three naked children playing "hiding")
13 Element l'eau (woman on shell drawn by two dolphins) <<<<< Water
14 Element Feu (man with hammer, gorgon-shield and helmet in work; smith) <<<<< Fire
15 Element Terre (woman in landscap with fruits and with baton and crown) <<<<< Earth
16 Momus (Fool) **** <<<< missing Air
17 Les Etoiles (Woman sitting at cloud with night heaven and star-scepter)
18 La Lune (Diane sitting on crescent above a cloud, with arrow)
19 Le Soleil (Helios at chariot with 4 horses)
20 La Renommé (Angel with trmpet; Fame)
21 Le Monde (putti sitting on globe, playing with sand-glass; Time?)

....

Added:

**** I wrote above "16 Momus Fool", following Depaulis' suggestions and the order offered by the presenting webpage.
However, I noted, that the expected card at position 16 should be "Air", which is missing in the series 15 Terra - 14 Feu - 13 Water. From this one likely has to conclude, that "Air" is indeed just missing and Momus is simply the "not numbered Fool".
********************

40 or 41 trumps version presented in
Origine des cartes à jouer. Ouvrage accompagné d'un Album ..... by Romain Merlin 1869
from pages 130/131
https://books.google.de/books?id=XQ0IAA ... &q&f=false

Image


Image



**********************

More or less taken from .... viewtopic.php?p=11177#p11177

I made a list, uniting 3 known Poilly versions with 42, 41/40 and 22 trump cards with the possibly original version of Minchiate (nobody knows, which Minchiate version Poilly knew from his stay in Italy, actually I use the version, which was in use c. 1725).

MI = original Minchiate
P1 = version with 21/22 trump cards
P2 = version with 40 or 41 trump cards
P3 = version with 42 trump cards

MI P1 P2 P3
41 22 41 42
-----------------
--- --- --- 01. Chaos
38 19 38 02. Sun (Chariot)
37 18 37 03. Moon
36 17 36 04. Star
39 21 39 05. World
23 16 23 06. Air (Juno)
22 15 21 07. Earth
21 13 22 08. Water
20 14 20 09. Fire (Vulcan)
--- 10 12 10. Iason (Age)
--- 12 14 11. Infancy
--- 11 13 12. Adolescence
--- 09 11 13. old Age
--- --- 15 14. Taste (Woman with fruits)
--- --- 17 15. Smell (Woman with flowers)
--- --- 16 16. Touch (young man riding eagle, Ganymede)
--- --- 19 17. Sight (Narcisse)
--- --- 18 18. Hearing (man playing violin, riding on fish, Arion)
17 08 05 19. Prudence
08 06 07 20. Justice
19 07 06 21. Charity
16 03 08 22. Hope
07 04 09 23. Strength
40 20 40 24. Fame (Angel)
--- 01 01 25. Mercury
--- --- 04 26. Bacchus
05 02 02 27. Love
--- --- 03 28. Venus
00 00 00 29. Momus (Fool)
09 05 10 30. Fortune
32 --- 35 31. January (Aquarius)
31 --- 34 32. February (Pisces)
27 --- 33 33. March (Aries)*
34 --- 32 34. April (Taurus)
35 --- 31 35. May (Gemini)
30 --- 30 36. June (Cancer)
33 --- 29 37. July (Leo)
25 --- 28 38. August (Virgo)
24 --- 26 39. September (Libra)*
26 --- 27 40. October (Scorpio)*
29 --- 25 41. November (Sagitarius)
28 --- 24 42. December (Capricorn)*


Pictures from Minchiate Francesi deck of Solleone
https://www.ebay.com/itm/165937518068?_ ... %3A2047675
Image

Image

Image

Image
Huck
http://trionfi.com