Re: Dummett's "Il Mondo e L'Angelo" & More

#201
As Huck notes, it has commonly been seen as a corruption of Gemini, possibly in relation to that sign being placed as the highest of the zodiacal trumps. But as you say it is an Italian/Latin word in its own right. In latin it appears in the bible twice, as a translation for the Hebrew TzTT {grow, spring up, sprout}. It is hard to see how the word as such applies to the game, but in relation to the tarocch [which one 18th century Milanese dictionary says also means tree stump, log], I suppose one could say the stump has produced new shoots [extra cards]. :)

Perhaps in relation to cards one could also see ones stack or ones tricks grow?

You could say figuratively I suppose, that every player lays a seed {card}, but only one sprouts {wins}. ;)

One could say there is some relation to plants in that we call the small cards 'pips' (seeds).

If one plays in pairs, one partner could lay the seed which the partner 'germinates', i.e., plays a low card of a suit which s/he thinks the partner can bring to fruition and win on.

All one can say for sure is that 'germini' means 'to germinate', but in relation to the card game has been considered by some to be a corruption of 'gemini', the highest of the zodiacal cards in the deck.

SteveM

Pei quattro punti del grande orizzonte, col pugno teso e gonfio di muscoli e di germini, benedice alla Luna ed al Sole, all'Acque lucide ed ai Venti sonori.
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Dummett's "Il Mondo e L'Angelo" & More

#202
I'm back from a short vacation. While I was away, I thought of some flaws in my argument that the Sefer Yetzirah fits the A order Rothschild sequence much better than it does the C order Marseille sequence. The flaws have to do with the Star, Moon, and Sun cards. The associations I was making for the Tarot de Marseille depend on the Tarot de Marseille scenes on the bottom of the cards, and the A scenes are different. In fact the Rothschild just has a Star, Moon, and Sun. So I had to find new associations that depended on A order cards. I think I was successful (in fact, it is again the Rothschild that works best), but read for yourself at the end of viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1019&p=15486#p15486.

Also I see that Huck is right (in the post after that one) that before I try to understand the idea of "paths" in terms of the Kabbalist "tree" (more like a diagram), I should first look at them in terms of the Sefer Yetzirah itself. Actually, I can see that there aren't 32 paths on the Tree: there are only 22. The other 10, the sefiroth, aren't paths, they're points. And doubling the paths, as I was suggesting, gives 44, not 64.

OK, do what does the Sefer Yetzirah mean when it speaks of "32 mystical paths of wisdom" by which God created the universe"? I know it says the 32 are the 10 sefirot and the 22 letters, but how are these "paths"? And what determines the order of presentation, which is very odd? Does it have to do with the 32 times "Elohim" is used in chapter one of Genesis, as said at http://www.kosmic-kabbalah.com/32-paths-creation? Each time, Elohim is the subject of the sentence, doing something. I can see that. It makes sense. So where do the "folders" and the next 32 come in, Huck?

I am pleased that Mary has noticed this discussion. Perhaps she will have more to say (I hope). In the meantime, I will be searching for relevant works by Mr. Mackenzie. Tonight I read his (I assume) "Cipher Manuscript", which certainly doesn't explain much. The relevant part is at the end, starting at folio 50 (http://hermetic.com/gdlibrary/cipher/). It does seem to make reference to things that weren't talked about in classical texts, not known until after the deciphering of Egyptian hieroglyphs in the 19th century. At least he's up to date on his Egyptology! I mean, Ma'at with her scales, and the lion goddess, neither of whom I think the Greeks mentioned; as for the knife being an Egyptian symbol of justice, I'm not familiar with that. I don't think any of this was known in the 15th-16th centuries. I can see why Mr. Crowley wouldn't care repeat those details.

Re: Dummett's "Il Mondo e L'Angelo" & More

#203
mikeh wrote: Also I see that Huck is right (in the post after that one) that before I try to understand the idea of "paths" in terms of the Kabbalist "tree" (more like a diagram), I should first look at them in terms of the Sefer Yetzirah itself. Actually, I can see that there aren't 32 paths on the Tree: there are only 22. The other 10, the sefiroth, aren't paths, they're points. And doubling the paths, as I was suggesting, gives 44, not 64.
... :-) ... The SY talked of 32 paths, not 22. Whatever later kabbalists made out of it. If they talked of 22 paths and treated the other 10 paths as points, than that's their model and not that model presented in the SY.

I don't know, what the Sephiroth really are, but if later kabbalists used them as points, which were connected by 22 paths or another number of paths, one should differentiate these opinions and theories from that, what the Sepher Yetzirah as a text really stated (the kabbalists invented their commentaries at least 600 years after SY was written).

6 of the 10 Sephiroth for instance stand according SY for directions. Up-down-right-left-front-back. "Directions" are not "points".
But six directions demand 3 dimensions and one point in the middle (6+3+1 = 10 Sephiroth), in other words that's our humble system of coordinates, as we learned it in school maybe in the age of 12 years.

Westcott (Golden Dawn) translated from it:
"These are the ten ineffable existences, the spirit of the living God, Air, Water, Fire, Height and Depth, East and West, North and South."

"Height and Depth, East and West, North and South" are naturally the six directions. "Air, Water, Fire" are naturally the 3 dimensions. Air should be likely that what connected "Height and Depth". The "Spirit of the living God" naturally was the creative point in the middle, which expanded in all directions.
OK, do what does the Sefer Yetzirah mean when it speaks of "32 mystical paths of wisdom" by which God created the universe"? I know it says the 32 are the 10 sefirot and the 22 letters, but how are these "paths"? And what determines the order of presentation, which is very odd? Does it have to do with the 32 times "Elohim" is used in chapter one of Genesis, as said at http://www.kosmic-kabbalah.com/32-paths-creation? Each time, Elohim is the subject of the sentence, doing something. I can see that. It makes sense. So where do the "folders" and the next 32 come in, Huck?
... :-) ... The chapter 1 of Genesis is naturally a literary product, and if the author prefered to have the name "elohim" 32 times mentioned, then this is either accidental or naturally only an intentional literary trick, which with the author wanted to point out something. This object, to which the author wanted to point to, is of interest, not the literary trick, of course.

The "32" and and it's specific grouping in "22+10" or "(1+3+6) + ((1+6) + 3 + 12)" as "32 ways of wisdom" is just a natural feature of the binary number system, when you expand it till the 6th level (= 2*2*2*2*2*2).

If you would use the system only to the first level, you would have just "2" and you could name it "yin and yang" or "light and dark"or whatever you prefer to say. If you would expand it to level 3, you would get 8 elements (2*2*2*; often used for "father + mother + 3 sons + 3 girls" in mythical context as for instance in Greek mythology and the children of Kronos and Rhea or in the I-Ching, where you get 8 trigrams with "Kien = heaven = Yang" as father and Kun = "earth = Yin" as mother and 6 children as mixed state of Yin and Yang.

The 6th level (2*2*2*2*2*2) is just nice, cause 6 is the result of the multiplication of 2 with 3 (which are the both first numbers higher than 1). So the SY preferred this structure and and I-Cing preferred it, too, and others dito. But naturally history has produced also other systems, which some other persons preferred. In astrology the number 12 was very interesting, cause the year had about 12 moons, for instance. For the year it seems to have been occasionally attrative to count it with 360, just for number elegance. The Maya preferred the 20, counting fingers and toes. The Sumerians produced the sexagesimal-system with a preference for 60 and 12. Early computers had a preference for 2^7, as they thought, that 128 would be enough for signs, but then 2^8 = 256 was preferred.

But nonetheless, this model with "64 elements" had a lot of natural attraction, and it is not really a wonder, that the SY preferred it. It's just a historical act, that the author had a preference for it.

"So where do the "folders" and the next 32 come in, Huck" .... :-) ... I guess, I've already explained that ...
http://trionfi.com/tarot/new-themes/sepher-yetzirah/

Image


... if it's too small, visit the weblink.

2*2*2*2*2*2 produces 64 symbols. 111111 is one, 000000 another and 111000 another and also 000111. Each of these symbols would describe "an extreme state". Neither Yang or Yin is an idealized state.

Harmony or "wisdom" is reached in the balance of 111111 with its opposite, and that's 000000. So "111111 and 000000 together" are one of the 32 ways of wisdom and "111000 and 000111 together" is another way. It seems, that the SY author interpreted it in this way, and his idea seems logical or at least understandable.

Using common math it's so, that if "A" meets "-A" and you make an addition "A+ (-A)", you get "0". If "0" would be defined as "balanced" or "in harmony", well, then you have a similar idea as it appears to have been in use by the author of SY.
Perhaps this example is less confusing.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Dummett's "Il Mondo e L'Angelo" & More

#204
SteveM wrote: All one can say for sure is that 'germini' means 'to germinate', but in relation to the card game has been considered by some to be a corruption of 'gemini', the highest of the zodiacal cards in the deck.
Well, here's a way to combine the two ideas: The bright center of the Milky Way crosses the ecliptic between Sagittarius' arrow and Scorpius' sting and its faintest part crosses at Gemini (see a previous discussion on this point on this board); certain cults in antiquity asscociated the descent/birth and ascent/rebirth/resurrection of the soul with these two points. So Gemini is birth. The problem is that Macrobius confused this matter by linking these celestial "gates" in the solstice signs of Cancer/Capricorn.

My interpretation of this Mithraic altar from Trier, Germany (ironically near my own birthplace) - infant Mithras does not merely move the zodiacal cricle (which everyone agrees with) but points to the sign of his birth, Gemini:
Image

From a 2nd century CE Roman Orphic cult (the object is now held in Modena, Italy) - note that Jupiter's lightning bolt crosses into the zodiac at Gemini and that birth is definitely indicated in the eggshell at head and feet:
Image

Phaeded

Re: Dummett's "Il Mondo e L'Angelo" & More

#205
[quote="Phaeded"
Well, here's a way to combine the two ideas: [/quote]

Mmm, yes--well still:

All one can say for sure is that 'germini' means 'to germinate', but in relation to the card game has been considered by some to be a corruption of 'gemini', the highest of the zodiacal cards in the deck.
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Dummett's "Il Mondo e L'Angelo" & More

#207
Phaeded wrote:But why is 'gemini', the highest of the zodiacal cards in the deck?
... :-) ... it's a fact.

I think, possibly the Medici had something with twins. First Cosimo had a twin brother, who died. Cause he was a twin, he got the name Cosimo cause of Cosmas and Damian.

The he had cooperated with a brother, Lorenzo.
His sons cooperated, Piero with Giovanni.
Then Lorenzo with Giuliano.
Lorenzo got twins again, but they died.
Then Giuliano was killed, dramatic situation. Lorenzo survived. Situations like this create something like an archetype, which tends to be prolonged in future. Giuliano got a posthumus son. Lorenzo cared for him and introduced him to the family. Giovanni, the young cardinal, and this Giulio became a team. Later both became pope, fulfilling the Medici twin system.
There were likely already a few people in Florence, which saw them as a Medici "twin team", when they arrived in Florence in Septemer 1512. And again in March 1513, when Giovanni became pope.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Dummett's "Il Mondo e L'Angelo" & More

#209
Phaeded wrote:Huck, I worded my question badly - not questioning Gemini is at the top, but rather why is Gemini at the top.

The Italians were fairly sophisticated in their use of astrology by this point - there must be a Gemini reference to the Medici you pointed out in Ficino for that theory to be valid.
There are "Gemini" references in the context of the Medici in 1513, naturally based on the condition, that Rome had gotten a Florentine pope.
There are "Germini" references in 1517 and 1519.

We've the first Minchiate reference in 1466. But this doesn't mean, that it was already a deck with 97 cards and the specific later Germini content around 1550, it only confirms the name of a playing card game in this time. The factor "Gemini as highest trump" might have developed in 1513.

For 1466 we've Luigi Pulci involved, who mentioned the game in a letter. Pulci was quite another type than Ficino, and Pulci and Ficino later were strong foes.
Lorenzo (still rather young) and Pulci were close in this time, some time later persons of the Platonic Academy didn't love the influence of Pulci on Lorenzo. Pulci was accused of sorcery, partly in context of a few funny scenes in the Morgante around the magician Malagigi (around 1474/75).
Pulci had to leave Florence and had a bad time then.

Around 1479 Pulci returned, and was forgiven. But when Pulci died in 1484 near Padova, the local people didn't want to bury him in Christian earth.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Dummett's "Il Mondo e L'Angelo" & More

#210
Phaeded wrote:
SteveM wrote: All one can say for sure is that 'germini' means 'to germinate', but in relation to the card game has been considered by some to be a corruption of 'gemini', the highest of the zodiacal cards in the deck.
Well, here's a way to combine the two ideas: The bright center of the Milky Way crosses the ecliptic between Sagittarius' arrow and Scorpius' sting and its faintest part crosses at Gemini (see a previous discussion on this point on this board); certain cults in antiquity asscociated the descent/birth and ascent/rebirth/resurrection of the soul with these two points. So Gemini is birth.
This reminded me of something in Dante. In his Divine Comedy, Dante enters the sphere of fixed stars through Gemini, his own natal sign:
Paradiso Canto XXII:100-154 Dante enters Gemini

The sweet Lady drove me, behind them, up the ladder, merely with a gesture, her power so conquered my nature: and motion was never so quick down here, where we climb and fall by nature’s law, as to match my flight.
O Reader, I swear by my hopes of ever returning to that sacred triumph, for which I, many a time, regret my sins, and beat my breast, you would not have put your finger in the fire, and drawn it back, in so short a time as it took me to see the sign of Gemini, that follows Taurus, and to be inside it.
O glorious stars, O light pregnant with great power, from which I derive all my genius, whatever of it there is, He who is father of every human life, was rising and setting in your sign, when I first felt the air of Tuscany: and then, when grace was granted me, to enter the distant sphere where you revolve, your region was assigned to me.
To you my soul breathes, devoutly, to gain the strength for the difficult passage, which draws her towards itself. Beatrice began to say: ‘You are so near the highest blessedness, that your eyes should be sharp and clear. So, before you make your way deeper into it, look down, and see how great a world I have placed under your feet: in order that your heart may be presented, as joyfully as it can to the triumphant crowd which comes, delightedly, through this ethereal sphere.’
I turned my gaze back through each and every one of the seven spheres, and saw this globe, so that I smiled at its pitiful semblance, and I approve that wisdom greatest which considers it least: since he whose thoughts are directed elsewhere may be called truly noble.
I saw the Moon, Artemis, daughter of Latona, lit without that shadow which gave me reason before to consider her rare or dense. I endured the face of Helios, your son Hyperion, and saw how Mercury, son of Maia, and Venus, daughter of Dione, move around and near him. Next, Jupiter appeared, moderate between Saturn his father’s cold, and Mars’s his son’s heat, and the changes in their position were clear to me. And all the seven were revealed to me, how large, how fast they are, and how distant from each other in orbit.
The threshing-floor that makes us so fierce, appeared to me from mountains to river-mouth, as I revolved with the eternal Twins: then I turned my eyes to the lovely eyes again.
Here in the regions of his natal sign, Dante expresses his hopes to return to the place of his baptismal font, the place of his birth, Florence:
Paradiso Canto XXV:1-63 Saint James and Saint Peter

If it should ever come to pass, that the sacred poem, to which Heaven and Earth have set their hand, so that it has made me lean through many a year, conquers the cruelty that bars me from the lovely fold, where I used to sleep as a lamb, enemy of the wolves that war on it, I will return a poet, now, with altered voice and fleece, and will assume the wreath at my baptismal font, since it was there I entered the faith which makes souls visible to God, and afterwards Peter, for its sake, so encircled my brow.
The association of Gemini in cosmological tradition as gateway to 'the invisible heavens, associated...with the milky way', is made by a commentator on Dante here:

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Dv3K ... &q&f=false
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

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