Yes, I forgot about that, my apologies. Well, the rest of it might somehow be of interest.

There's an open question around this ...

I wrote the following here ...
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=345&p=10675&hilit=barletta#p10675

Andrea Vitali recently published ...

Ludere ad Triumphos
Cum Deo et in Ecclesia

http://www.letarot.it/page.aspx?id=281&lng=ITA

It contains two new notes about the Trionfi game ...

******************************
1.

One of the notes relates to Gabriel Barletta, about whom Ross already has worked, though in other contexts, as far I perceive it.
( viewtopic.php?f=11&t=321&p=4011&hilit=barletta#p4011 )

The important passage in Andrea's text is ...

Si vult venire in domum meam in istis festis paravi plura. Si voluerit ludere ad triumphos sunt in domo; ad tesseras, habeo plura tabularia. Ad Occam, habeo taxillos grossos, & minutos: grossos ut si fortè male videret,

... which seems to be from Barletta. Barletta's last known note of his life is from 1481, the original text has no date.

The referencing text is Récréations Historiques, Critiques, Morales et d’Èrudition avec l’Histoire des Fous en Titre d’Office, published at Paris in 1767.

I found the French text here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=DINgZL ... 22&f=false

... but Andrea noted, that the first publication of the special sentence appeared 1497 (Sermones quadragesimales et de sanctis). Andrea noted privately "... probably from 1480".

Later I added to the same topic:

Added later:

http://www.rabelais.nl/html/in_geschrifte.html

‘Bridoye et le jeu de l’oie’

‘On joue beaucoup aux dés chez Rabelais. Gargantua s’y exerce dès l’enfance, Panurge ne saurait vivre sans. Mais à quoi? Au jeu de l’oie? L’épisode de Bridoye y invite mais les historiens sérieux de ce jeu, ceux qui ne le croient ni renouvelé des Grecs, ni égyptien semblent formels. Aucun jeu de l’oie antérieur aux dernières années du seizième siècle n’est conservé. Pourtant, le dominicain italien Barletta (= 1480), dans un sermon pour le quatrième dimanche de l’Avent, parle du jeu de l’oie à cette période de Noël, plus même, il y faut des gros et des petits dés afi n de remédier aux imperfections de la vue dues à la sénescence. Ce texte est, on le sait, paraphrasé par Rabelais: “Sed dicunt quidam. Si vult venire in domum meam in istis festis, paravi plura. Si voluerit ludere at triomphos (tarot) sunt in domo, ad thesseras habeo plura tabulatia, ad aucam habeo taxillos grossos et minutos. Grossos ut si forte male videret, qui a deus senuit”.

Le texte est édité à Brescia en 1497-1498, à Lyon dès 1502, 1507, 1524…

At this partly Dutch page, it seems, that the sentence was used in a modified manner by Rabelais ... one of the modifications is the change of "Occam" to "aucam".

Changes to Andrea's version:
Si vult venire in domum meam in istis festis paravi plura. Si voluerit ludere ad triumphos sunt in domo; ad tesseras, habeo plura tabularia. Ad Occam, habeo taxillos grossos, & minutos: grossos ut si fortè male videret [missing: qui a deus senuit, but for Andrea follows "Quia Deus senuit:"]

But the half-Dutch text itself seems to go back to this pdf ...
http://193.52.215.193/cinquantenaire/Ma ... mes1_1.pdf

Author is Claude Gaignebet, if I see this correctly ...

http://www.francoisrabelaislefilm.com/e ... nebet.html

... with some involvement in a Rabelais movie project. And also Tarot ...

Movie : http://www.wat.tv/video/claude-gaignebe ... gnjr_.html

In a later private discussion with Andrea it turned out, that the mentioned "Occam" and "Aucam" game (which first puzzled us) was nothing else but the Goose game (a running game). Well, if my French would have been better, I would have noticed this likely earlier.

Some internal communication cleared the question, that the Occam word of Andrea's source and the "aucum" word of Rabelais both likely refer to the "Gioco dell'oca" ...

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gioco_dell%27oca


... the Goose game, well known already in 15th century Italy and very earlier.

First it was suspected, that there might have been possibly a game related to William Ockham ... :-) ... also spelled Occam occasionally.

Compare:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/50404340/Jose ... n-francais
at page 25

aucam > oie (et ove ... ?)

French oie, German Gans, English Goose, Italian Oca

So far this seems clear. But an open question is, where and how Rabelais quoted Barletta. Maybe it's one of the oldest French Tarocchi notes (as as such would belong to this list) or it includes the older form "Trionfi" in a French variant? Or do I still misinterpret the text and the passage of Claude Gaignebet says NOT, that Rabelais took something of Barletta, but it just appeared as Barletta's text in Latin in Lyon in the years 1502, 1507, 1524 ... even this would testify the term "Triumphos" in France - printed in Lyon - and as such it would be the fourth we know of after Marcello's letter 1449, the dictionary note of 1480 and the card playing bills of Rene II d'Anjou in the 1490s, though not in French language.

Perhaps somebody with better French understanding than mine could clear the confusion:

Original at http://193.52.215.193/cinquantenaire/Ma ... mes1_1.pdf

Claude Gaignebet (Université de Nice)
cleogauthier "at" yahoo.fr

Bridoye et le jeu de l’oie

On joue beaucoup aux dés chez Rabelais. Gargantua s’y exerce dès l’enfance, Panurge
ne saurait vivre sans. Mais à quoi ? Au jeu de l’oie ? L’épisode de Bridoye y invite
mais les historiens sérieux de ce jeu, ceux qui ne le croient ni renouvelé des Grecs,
ni égyptien semblent formels. Aucun jeu de l’oie antérieur aux dernières années du
seizième siècle n’est conservé. Pourtant, le dominicain italien Barletta (= 1480), dans
un sermon pour le quatrième dimanche de l’Avent, parle du jeu de l’oie à cette période
de Noël, plus même, il y faut des gros et des petits dés afi n de remédier aux imperfections
de la vue dues à la sénescence. Ce texte est, on le sait, paraphrasé par Rabelais :
« Sed dicunt quidam. Si vult venire in domum meam in istis festis, paravi plura. Si voluerit
ludere at triomphos (tarot) sunt in domo, ad thesseras habeo plura tabulatia, ad aucam habeo
taxillos grossos et minutos. Grossos ut si forte male videret, qui a deus senuit ».
Le texte est édité à Brescia en 1497-1498, à Lyon dès 1502, 1507, 1524…
Cette petite pierre à la surface de la mare tranquille des lectures de Rabelais irradie des
cercles concentriques d’autant plus hypothétiques qu’ils s’éloignent du centre. Mais
les Silènes alcibiadiques masqués d’oisons bridés et de canes bâtées invitent à…
Reprendre la voie des signes (3 multiplié par 3) qui, de 9 en 9, marque les étapes
de la quête des cornes de Panurge au Tiers livre.
Reconnaître dans le 4 pris pour un 5 de Bridoye le désir de parvenir en 53, au
grand dépit de Toucheronde (le pion adverse).
Compter à la façon du Timée les 1+2+3+4= 10 de la tétrade des consultants pour
parvenir à 63 et gagner l’oie.
Relire sur ce point les commentaires au Timée de Procle et de Chalcidius où
l’on s’interroge sur l’identité du mystérieux quatrième absent que Jamblique
estime « supérieur aux présents et contemplateur des intelligibles ».
S’aventurer à énumérer les caractéristiques aucines des héros du roman :
Panurge rôti, mangeant son blé en herbe, honorant Némésis, la déesse oie de la
Fortune dont le lieu est l’oreille dextre (Pline), oyant et merdoyant.
Badebec ; Gargantua, car gantes et gantuas sont oies médiévales (Du Cange).
Trouillogan, l’oie-truie ou la merde d’oie, selon que l’on choisisse l’une ou
l’autre étymologie d’un obscur « trouille » (Von Wartburg), bien proche du
pourceau volant à pattes d’oie de l’esprit tutélaire de la gigantale race andouillique.
Og-hapalit, le géant pré-déluvien (cf. Du Cange, s.v. « oga « = oie= oge).

Hello,

Huck wrote: double page . 51 .... Torot

you can discard this one, as it is simply a typo which doesn't appear in earlier editions, the oldest I found(1595) reads "tArot" (I capitalize) at the same place.

Bertrand

Bertrand wrote:Hello,

Huck wrote: double page . 51 .... Torot

you can discard this one, as it is simply a typo which doesn't appear in earlier editions, the oldest I found(1595) reads "tArot" (I capitalize) at the same place.

Bertrand

Thanks.

******************

For the entry in the list of Ross ...

1659. Paris. Taros (Maison Academique des Jeux)

... there's a transcription of Hans-Joachim Alscher
http://www.tarock.info/maison_academique.htm

A picture from an edition in 1665 in the BNF


http://images.bnf.fr/jsp/index.jsp?dest ... rcheSimple

A different picture in the version of 1654 ..


http://expositions.bnf.fr/jeux/grand/055.htm

A Google book version of 1665
http://books.google.de/books?id=0KJAAAA ... &q&f=false
(Most versions can't be viewed there)

I found a free download of a 1702 version at ..
http://www.e-rara.ch/zut/content/titleinfo/2719454

I copied the content of the 1665 version and of the 1702 version ... it is different.

Content 1665



Content 1702



I compared the texts of the Taros or Tarots chapters ... I didn't find relevant differences "at first sight" (I might err, but I'd no fun to compare each detail). There's a difference in Taros and Tarots (1665 writes "Tarots" and "Taros", 1659 seems to have written Taros and at one occasion "Tarros".

The first passage (1659, Alscher) looks rather similar (if not identical) in all versions.

Si ce Ieu de Cartes de Taros n'a pas esté mis plutost en lumiere dans nostre France, c'est comme ie croy que les François ne demandent que l'abregé de toutes choses: & ce qui fait qu'il n'a pas eu grand cours, c'est que tres peu de personnes ont la connoissance des regles qu'il y faut obseruer pour y ioüer, lequel ieu est le plus diuertissant qui se puisse trouuer dans toute sorte de ieux, & duquel ie puis dire auec verité, qu'il n'y a aucune fourberie, ny filouterie: Les Suisses & les Alemans ne ioüent point ordinairement à d'autres ieux, & mesme en France, comme à Lyon, Marseille, & autres lieux oú ils ont connoissance de la gentillesse de ce Ieu, dans l'obseruation des regles qui suiuent pour vous en donner la connoissance.

Maybe somebody with better French language could translate it, as this seems important.

I understand, that the Tarot game had once better times in France (one has to assume "before 1659", as all other versions only have copies). It seems, that it is played still in Lyon and Marseilles (?) ...

I copied the relevant pages of the 1702 version (chapters Taros and Triumphs, which both might be relevant)























************

I don't know, if there's a big difference to a 1654 version. Actually I would like to know, what's the difference between the rules of 1637 (Marolles) and those of 1654.
Are these the same texts? Are they different? And where had the text of the 1637 version been found, if it is not identical to the version 1654?

Huck wrote: I don't know, if there's a big difference to a 1654 version. Actually I would like to know, what's the difference between the rules of 1637 (Marolles) and those of 1654.
Are these the same texts? Are they different? And where had the text of the 1637 version been found, if it is not identical to the version 1654?

Thierry said in Tarot: jeu et magie (1984), p. 67, that the 1654 edition of Maison Academique only had two card games, Piquet and Hoc. The 1659 edition was greatly expanded, and included Tarot for the first time.

Here are the relevant pages of Dummett and McLeod, HGT, so you can compare the two sets of rules, 1637 and 1659.


http://www.rosscaldwell.com/images/book ... GT1pp16-17
Click link for full-sized image (sorry about the blur in spots; this is due to the size of my scanner bed, and the tightness of the binding)


http://www.rosscaldwell.com/images/book ... GT16618-19


http://www.rosscaldwell.com/images/book ... GT1pp20-21


http://www.rosscaldwell.com/images/book ... GT1pp22-23


http://www.rosscaldwell.com/images/book ... GT1pp24-25


http://www.rosscaldwell.com/images/book ... GT1pp26-27

Ah .... thanks.

******************

I followed the information, that was presented by Dummett/McLeod: Francois Garasse in 1622

Les recherches des Recherches & autres œuures de me Estienne Pasqvier
By François Garasse (1622)
http://books.google.de/books?id=LNUcAQA ... ts&f=false

... assuming, that this might be the text, to which Dummett and McLeod referred to. I see two pages with 222 and 736, which contain the word "Tarots", but I have doubts, if these are the passages, to which they referred.

Page 222


Page 736


Etiene Pasquier (title) seems to be this person ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89tienne_Pasquier

Francois Garasse has this short English biography:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ois_Garasse
... a longer French biography
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ois_Garasse

************

My doubts were right, and in a second edition I found 3 "Tarots" in the text, and that explained me, that one has to observe the complete article in this version, which is about chess and stretches from p. 214-224:













Well, I became curious ...
I searched all "Tarots" from 1600-1650 ... at book.google.com

GOOGLE says, it has about 446 results on "Tarots" between 1600-1650, but gives only 100 results. From these maybe 50% might be errors, these are more often presented in the second half of the 100 (so, if it really would present its 446 results, it might be much more than 50% errors, if it would give 446 results). Nearly all of the findings are one-time-notes of "Tarots" in the book. I collected some of the positive results (not all of them, and most are not very interesting, are doublettes, etc.)

https://www.google.com/search?tbo=p&tbm ... 40&bih=791

Basilicon doron, ou présent royal, instruction au prince Henry son fils pour bien régner
by James I (Roi d'Angleterre), Jean Hotman (sieur de Villiers Saint Paul) (1603/1605)
http://books.google.de/books?id=g_I8AAA ... ts&f=false



This seems remarkable, as it is written by the English king James I for his son. James I anyway expressed the opinion, that he couldn't see the higher alue of chess against card playing.

**********************

Le soldat françois
Pierre de Lostal (1604)
http://books.google.de/books?id=sINAAAA ... ts&f=false



***************

Claude Duret 1605
http://books.google.de/books?id=aLECWaE ... ts&f=false



I found this curious, why the game of Tarot appeared in a book about plants. I remembered, that some French playing cards had plants as motifs. Were there also Tarot cards with plants?

****************

L'Heureuse conversion des Huguenots, qui ont cogneu l'abus de la pretendue Religion... avec la saincte messe en françois (et en latin)... par Iacques d'Illaire...
Jacques d' Illaire, Couvent des Carmes déchaussés, Rigaud (1608)
http://books.google.de/books?id=jbfxPIB ... ts&f=false



I wondered, what the Huguenots had to do with Tarot.

**********************

Jean Hotman 1616
Opuscules françoises des Hotmans:
L'Antitribonnian, ou discours de ce grand et renommé jurisconsulte François Hotman, sur l'estude des loix
http://books.google.de/books?id=xeYWHr6 ... ts&f=false



The name Jean Hotman appeared also in the work of James I 1603/05

**********************

Treize Livres des parlements de France, ès quels est amplement traité de leur origine et institution, et des présidents, conseillers, gens du roi, greffiers, secrétaires, huissiers et autres officiers
Bernard de La Roche-Flavin 1617
http://books.google.de/books?id=hrX42ey ... ts&f=false



This seems of special interests, as it reports, that the French king Charles IX had prohibited Tarots (and some other game) at his court.

***************

Le franc-archer de la vraye Eglise: contre les abus et énormités de la fausse
Anthoine Fusi 1619
http://books.google.de/books?id=Du0UAAA ... ts&f=false



****************

Le verger des colloques recreatifs, comprins en douze chapitres, tres-propre, gentil, & utile, pour toutes sortes de gens, en langue Françoise & Italienne
Gomes de Trier (1623)
http://books.google.de/books?id=KnNOAAA ... ts&f=false




****************

Factum pour Nicolas de Montruit, marchand grossier privilégié suivant la cour, demandeur et complaignant, contre maître Jacques Le Duchat, fermier général de l'impôt des cartes, dés et tarots, défendeur et accusé, Laurent Morieux et Robert Passerel, maîtres cartiers à Paris, aussi défendeurs et accusés (1628)
http://books.google.de/books?id=0lEBuAA ... edir_esc=y
No preview

I was interested, as the name Passerel appeared in an juristic case.

*****************
Les contes aux heures perdues:
Contenant Plusieurs Naifuetez, Simplicitez, Equiuoques ... qui ont esté oubliées au premier et deuxiesme Volume, Volume 3
Antoine Le Metel D'Ouville (1644)
http://books.google.de/books?id=Agw6AAA ... ts&f=false



********************************************************************************************************
***************

I finished the escapade 1600-1650 and took a view at 1651-1700. These were 560 results, so 114 more than in the in the earlier period of same length, but I would assume, that it is less in relation to the more recorded material. Generally my impression is - as that of Depaulis and Dummett - that Tarot got far less public attention in the second half than in the first half of 16th century. The peak of "Tarot in France" should have been in the first quarter of 17th century with Maria de Medici, Italian princess, marrying French king Henry IV of Navarra in 1600, then with Maria de Medici dominating as King's mother and then with Louis XIII being young enough to have a focus on games, so maybe till 1625.

Well, I collected a few things of the later period and got tired about it:

Recueil très-exact ... de tout ce qui s'est fait ... en l'assemblée generale des estats, tenus à Paris ... 1614
Florimond Rapine (1651)
http://books.google.de/books?id=M8hBAAA ... ts&f=false



Just a later edition of an earlier text. Something happened with king Henry III in 1587. Somehow Tarots seem to have played a (minor ?) role.

****************

Rabelais translation to English - 5th book (1653)
http://books.google.de/books?id=USmgAAA ... ts&f=false





Rabelais, just nice with some pictures.
******************

Déclaration touchant la fabrication des cartes à jouer, tarots et dés.
France, Louis XIV (roi de France)(1661)
http://books.google.de/books?id=rTZqQwA ... edir_esc=y
no preview

Might be important.

*******************

La chorographie ou description de Provence, et l'histoire chronologique du même pays
Honoré Bouche, C. David, 1664 ... the passage reports the year 1660
http://books.google.de/books?id=p2HyHLJ ... ts&f=false



This might have influenced the situation of Marseille.

Hello

as usual Huck a bit too mixed and long !

Huck wrote:GOOGLE says, it has about 446 results on "Tarots" between 1600-1650, but gives only 100 results. From these maybe 50% might be errors, these are more often presented in the second half of the 100 (so, if it really would present its 446 results, it might be much more than 50% errors, if it would give 446 results). Nearly all of the findings are one-time-notes of "Tarots" in the book. I collected some of the positive results (not all of them, and most are not very interesting, are doublettes, etc.)

Tarot was definitely popular and often quoted even if out of context.

I found this curious, why the game of Tarot appeared in a book about plants. I remembered, that some French playing cards had plants as motifs. Were there also Tarot cards with plants?

basically it says that Spanish found the "Indians" used some leaves as paper, and that after the Spanish used said leaves to make playing cards, so Tarot is cited as an example of cards.

Just a later edition of an earlier text. Something happened with king Henry III in 1587. Somehow Tarots seem to have played a (minor ?) role.

tax on playing cards and tarots.

Déclaration touchant la fabrication des cartes à jouer, tarots et dés.
France, Louis XIV (roi de France)(1661)
http://books.google.de/books?id=rTZqQwA ... edir_esc=y
no preview

Might be important.

probably taxes

La chorographie ou description de Provence, et l'histoire chronologique du même pays
Honoré Bouche, C. David, 1664 ... the passage reports the year 1660

This might have influenced the situation of Marseille.

taxes again.

Bertrand

Thanks, Bertrand ...

Bertrand wrote:Hello
as usual Huck a bit too mixed and long !

Well, the thread has the idea to collect material useful to get a clear picture (with documentation and easy access of the documents according to the new possibilities of the web) of the French Tarot development. If I would have the idea (and the knowledge), that this material wold be presented somewhere else in satisfying manner, I would simply and immediately link to it. I wouldn't take the work on it. But I don't know such a place. If anybody knows it better, please show, where it is ...

Huck wrote:GOOGLE says, it has about 446 results on "Tarots" between 1600-1650, but gives only 100 results. From these maybe 50% might be errors, these are more often presented in the second half of the 100 (so, if it really would present its 446 results, it might be much more than 50% errors, if it would give 446 results). Nearly all of the findings are one-time-notes of "Tarots" in the book. I collected some of the positive results (not all of them, and most are not very interesting, are doublettes, etc.)

Tarot was definitely popular and often quoted even if out of context.

"It was popular" is not a very clear description, especially, when the popularity wasn't always of the same quality.

Just a later edition of an earlier text. Something happened with king Henry III in 1587. Somehow Tarots seem to have played a (minor ?) role.

tax on playing cards and tarots.
Henry III. made some concrete political steps in 1587. The passage notes, that families in Normandy left France and went to England ... that's a relative dramatic step. Does this refer to religious persecution (which is common background for this period)? Or is it, that the playing card producers in Rouen (capital of "Upper Normandy") left France to go to England, cause by increased taxes on playing cards?

Déclaration touchant la fabrication des cartes à jouer, tarots et dés.
France, Louis XIV (roi de France)(1661)
http://books.google.de/books?id=rTZqQwA ... edir_esc=y
no preview

Might be important.

probably taxes

Yes, of course. But maybe there are indications, that taxes on tarot cards were increased against taxes in other times?

La chorographie ou description de Provence, et l'histoire chronologique du même pays
Honoré Bouche, C. David, 1664 ... the passage reports the year 1660

This might have influenced the situation of Marseille.

taxes again.[/quote]

It are not simple taxes. There was a war with siege against Marseille.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Saint ... rseille%29
... about Fort Saint Jean in Marseille

Fort Saint-Nicolas was constructed at the same time [1660] on the opposite side of the harbour. Commenting on their construction, Louis XIV said, "We noticed that the inhabitants of Marseille were extremely fond of nice fortresses. We wanted to have our own at the entrance to this great port." In fact, the two new forts were built in response to a local uprising against the governor, rather than for the defence of the city: their cannons pointed inwards towards the town, not outwards towards the sea.

http://www.marseillais-du-monde.org/his ... _mars.php3

1650 : Coup de main des partisans d’Antoine de Valbelle qui reprend l’Hôtel de ville. Ils accueille le représentant du roi et gouverneur de la Province, le comte d’Alais, à coup de mousquet. L’administration du commerce devient séparée de celle de la ville, en particulier au niveau du budget.
1653 : Au plus fort de la Fronde, Valbelle et ses partisans gardent Marseille fidèle au roi Louis XIV, mais ne considèrent pas que la ville fasse partie intégrante du royaume, en particulier sur la plan de la fiscalité.
1655 : Mort d’Antoine de Valbelle. Marseille passe aux mains de Lazare de Vento, tenant du parti opposé (parti des princes).
1658 : Les marseillais se révoltent contre Lazare de Vento, qui fuit. Aux élections du conseil de ville qui suivent, l’ancien parti de Valbelle revient au pouvoir en la personne de Gaspard de Glandevès, sieur de Niozelles, mais les élections sont annulées par Louis XIV.
1659 : Traité des Pyrénées. Nouvelle élection des amis de Niozelles à Marseille. Un document signé par le roi est lacéré. La ville est pratiquement interdite aux autorités légitimes.
1660 : Siège de la ville par les troupes royales. Marseille se rend. Louis XIV fait détruire la porte principale et pénètre symboliquement dans la ville par la brèche qu’il a fait ouvrir dans le rempart. Réforme des institutions municipales. Les représentants du commerce récupèrent le pouvoir local et Niozelles et ses amis sont déclarés coupables de lèse-majesté. Tutelle administrative. Construction des forts Saint-Nicolas et Saint-Jean pour protéger les garnisons royales contre les marseillais, ce qui fait de Marseille une place forte. En quittant la ville, Louis XIV y laisse une garnison. Marseille pert son autonomie mais la cité va désormais sortir de ses limites antiques.

Marseille in 1659 is called beside Lyon a city, which had some Tarot enthusiasm (if I understood this correctly).



Had Tarots been more common to Fronde sympathizers? That's an interesting question.

For Lyon we have this statement:

Les conflits religieux entament largement l'économie lyonnaise, qui ne retrouve pas son prestige par la suite. La plupart des imprimeurs émigrent à Genève. Les grandes familles bancaires fuirent Lyon pour n'y jamais revenir (75 banques italiennes en 1568, 21 en 1597)n 1. Lyon est redevenue, à l'orée du XVIIe siècle, une cité de moyenne importance.

Lyon had been of importance for the money system. "75 banques italiennes en 1568" likely explain, why Lyon was GREAT in matters of Tarot, beside the features, that it was also a playing card producing city an that it wasn't far from Italy. And it had lots of connections to Florence already in second half of 15th century.

Hello,

Huck wrote:Lyon had been of importance for the money system. "75 banques italiennes en 1568" likely explain, why Lyon was GREAT in matters of Tarot, beside the features, that it was also a playing card producing city an that it wasn't far from Italy. And it had lots of connections to Florence already in second half of 15th century.

No doubt that Lyon was of great importance, not only in matters of Tarot but mostly also for the printers, which were maybe in some way linked to cardmakers - as far as I know (very little) there are some evidences or hints but this relationship has not been thoroughly studied yet. This could also have an important role in the circulation of tarots.

Sorry about the beginning of my earlier post which wasn't meant to be offensive, it's simply that the amount of unsorted images and quotes make it difficult to follow (and reply) especially when someone is not a native english speaker - so maybe you could post different unsorted stuffs to different threads, and maybe wait to have a wider picture and an understandable purpose before posting them because this way I simply can't follow clearly the discussion nor the point of filling a thread with random findings (and maybe I'm the only one who minds about that ;) )

Bertrand

Bertrand wrote:Hello,

Huck wrote: Sorry about the beginning of my earlier post which wasn't meant to be offensive, it's simply that the amount of unsorted images and quotes make it difficult to follow (and reply) especially when someone is not a native english speaker - so maybe you could post different unsorted stuffs to different threads, and maybe wait to have a wider picture and an understandable purpose before posting them because this way I simply can't follow clearly the discussion nor the point of filling a thread with random findings (and maybe I'm the only one who minds about that ;) )

Bertrand

Yes, I see the problem. But there's not only the reader, but also the writer. And the state of "collection" is not the final state, it's just the note book. One finds something, and one must save it somewhere. If I save it in my computer I've the better chances to forget about it. If I put it in the forum, perhaps somebody has something of it ... at least I remember it better myself, and even if I forget about it, I've the better chances to stumble about it at some opportunity.
And then it might mean more than I know for the moment, cause research leads often to some progress - and it should do.
... :-) ... And the Forum search engine works much better than my computer search engine. So the strategy has its own pragmatism.

Well, and from time to time one can update the old list of Ross (in a sorted manner according the time table) and fill it with links to the given information.